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View Full Version : 'I'm on two' -- smart move?



phil in sofla
11-06-2003, 06:03 PM
Had this scenario explained to me last night, and wondered what you thought of it:

Playing 9 ball, you've just made a second foul in a row. You make a point to lament the fact, 'oh, no, now I'm on two,' with the idea that YOUR saying it will lull the opponent into forgetting to himself/herself tell you. Then, should the possible third foul in a row occur, and the opponent claims you lost the game, you have NOT lost the game, because that warning must come from the opponent.

While this may only work once per opponent, if at all (I can see some hostility and fights over such an argument), if the point is true, regardless, it seems a pretty sharp move to have in your bag of tricks, and one that isn't even an objectionable move, or unsportsmanlike. Just clever, if it works.

First, would it work, according to the rules? Second, it would have little to no value if the table is runnable by the opponent, but could save the game if the table is tied up. Ever hear of this, or use it yourself? Would you consider using it in an extreme situation, say, where the loss of the game meant the loss of the match?

tateuts
11-06-2003, 06:20 PM
Phil,

They still doing that to you?

The answer is NO, not a smart move!

Chris

Billy
11-06-2003, 07:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote phil in sofla:</font><hr> Had this scenario explained to me last night, and wondered what you thought of it:

Playing 9 ball, you've just made a second foul in a row. You make a point to lament the fact, 'oh, no, now I'm on two,' with the idea that YOUR saying it will lull the opponent into forgetting to himself/herself tell you. Then, should the possible third foul in a row occur, and the opponent claims you lost the game, you have NOT lost the game, because that warning must come from the opponent.

While this may only work once per opponent, if at all (I can see some hostility and fights over such an argument), if the point is true, regardless, it seems a pretty sharp move to have in your bag of tricks, and one that isn't even an objectionable move, or unsportsmanlike. Just clever, if it works.

First, would it work, according to the rules? Second, it would have little to no value if the table is runnable by the opponent, but could save the game if the table is tied up. Ever hear of this, or use it yourself? Would you consider using it in an extreme situation, say, where the loss of the game meant the loss of the match?

<hr /></blockquote>

I think it's more of a matter of you acknowledging the fact that you're on two fouls than he actually has to 'say' that you're on two

we need more gentlemen in the game,wouldn't you agree?

you're on two by admission,no cheap hustlin' /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

... "shoot pool Fast Eddie"

ian
11-06-2003, 07:47 PM
Pure Gamesmanship....Do you stand in his line of sight or make noise when he's up too?

Rick the stick
11-06-2003, 10:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote phil in sofla:</font><hr> Had this scenario explained to me last night, and wondered what you thought of it:

Playing 9 ball, you've just made a second foul in a row. You make a point to lament the fact, 'oh, no, now I'm on two,' with the idea that YOUR saying it will lull the opponent into forgetting to himself/herself tell you. Then, should the possible third foul in a row occur, and the opponent claims you lost the game, you have NOT lost the game, because that warning must come from the opponent.

While this may only work once per opponent, if at all (I can see some hostility and fights over such an argument), if the point is true, regardless, it seems a pretty sharp move to have in your bag of tricks, and one that isn't even an objectionable move, or unsportsmanlike. Just clever, if it works.

First, would it work, according to the rules? Second, it would have little to no value if the table is runnable by the opponent, but could save the game if the table is tied up. Ever hear of this, or use it yourself? Would you consider using it in an extreme situation, say, where the loss of the game meant the loss of the match?

<hr /></blockquote>


Ah what tangled webs we weave, when we first practice to deceive. The secret is to see this coming, see the trap where that can happen to you, then bust it up, if necessary, move the balls around so he can't keep locking you down dead. If you have to give up cb in hand once, better to do that early on than have him lay you to waste 3 times in a row and you lose the game. When the word gets out your unhookable, the entire world wants to be the one to lay you to waste. They lay for you on this. It was a group of four who had never lost a game in 3 fouls, then down went earl, then grady, then efren, now only FL is left as the last untouchable on this. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

AndyG
11-07-2003, 06:36 AM
As a frequent TD, I'd consider this a violation of the 'spirit' of the rules, if not the actual text of the rules. You'd not get by with this in my tournaments.
Of course, this is all just my biased opinion.
AndyG

pooltchr
11-07-2003, 07:09 AM
I agree. The rule that you have to advise your opponent they are on two, and they should acknowledge that fact to insure there is no doubt in anyone's mind. By acknowledging up front, you have established there is no doubt. In my tournaments, you better get a good hit on the next shot.

bluewolf
11-07-2003, 07:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr>
Ah what tangled webs we weave, when we first practice to deceive. The secret is to see this coming, see the trap where that can happen to you, then bust it up, if necessary, move the balls around so he can't keep locking you down dead. If you have to give up cb in hand once, better to do that early on than have him lay you to waste 3 times in a row and you lose the game. When the word gets out your unhookable, the entire world wants to be the one to lay you to waste. They lay for you on this. It was a group of four who had never lost a game in 3 fouls, then down went earl, then grady, then efren, now only FL is left as the last untouchable on this. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

The idea of hitting an incorrect ball and taking a foul is one I have seen. WW very haughtily told me he could three foul me anytime he wanted to. I said no you cant,lets play, and he could not. He finally admitted that it was not that easy. Beating me is pretty easy for him but three fouling me turned out to be not that easy.

It is kind of like 8ball, where you hit the wrong ball to keep them from safing you over and over or knock their ball in the pocket so it is not blocking your pocket,each time giving bih, same sort of thing in nineball. I would rather lose the game because they ran out than because I got three fouls and lost.

Disclaimer-my limited experience in 9 ball tournament play and matchups.

FL the only one who has never been three fouled? Is that what you are saying? If you are, geez I have only played seriously for 18 months and never got three fouled. I am sure others here can boast that claim who have played very much longer.

Laura

Kato
11-07-2003, 07:47 AM
Ian, Phil is a gentleman. I believe he saw this happen to someone. I've been playing with him for 6 or 7 years now, thousands of games, never has he sharked me or never have I seen him shark anyone else.

Kato

socrates
11-07-2003, 11:06 AM
Phil, first of all it was great to meet you at the US Open and I enjoyed visiting with you.

We each choose our own path. Since the situtation you descibed violates my three rules to live by (Do Whats Right, Do Your Best and Do Unto Others) I think that MOVE is bull chevek.

IMHO the game needs less moves and more sportsmanship.

Cheers,

ian
11-07-2003, 12:59 PM
No, didn't imply Phil was a bad guy, but I am one of those people who isn't that cut throat about winning. This is something I do for fun, even tournaments for cash don't bring me to this level to looking for that kind of edge.

smfsrca
11-07-2003, 01:22 PM
Your announcement is clearly an acknowledgement that you are aware that you are on 2 just as if you had been told you are on 2. By the same token, you can't look at a ball contact, say it is frozen and then claim you were not warned that it was frozen.
Any statement you make about being aware of a thing announces to the listener that you are already aware of the thing and need not be told. The only reason you would or should be making such a statement is to announce that you need not be told because you are already aware of it.

Kato
11-07-2003, 01:56 PM
Neither is Phil which is why I brought it up.

As many people who have met Phil over the years they know his brain is an incredible cavern of information. He craves it, stores it, and will use it in 23 years when it comes up again. He'll probably use his new found knowledge to settle an arguement. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Though hopefully not with me /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Kato

RUNaRAK
11-07-2003, 02:26 PM
If I cannot beat someone honestly and with intergity, I don't want to win. We definitely need more stand up players and less of the low lying species.....

Peace

Kato
11-07-2003, 03:03 PM
I completely agree. Why do I feel we've gotten away from the original question?

What Phil brought up is something that would never, ever occur to me. Not that I would have thunk it or used it as a move but I consider it a legitimate question that should be answered anyone who has experienced or used it in the past. Has it been used on you or anyone you know and is it effective? I'm sure it's not completely ethical and you may be breaking the spirit of the game but it's a question none-the-less.

Kato

RUNaRAK
11-07-2003, 03:07 PM
Good question then.. I would definitely assume that since the shooter acknowledged that he had 2 fouls, that when he missed the next hit, it would be loss of game.. My assumptions sometimes get me into trouble..so says my wife!
LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

tateuts
11-07-2003, 03:38 PM
OK - here is a smart move that's not cheating.

On a push out, you push to a position where you can make a pretty easy kick safety, or edge of the ball jump shot, or minor masse but leaving the cue ball still hooked.

You want to shoot again, so you pull this ruse. Right after the push out - you look up and shake your head like you made a mistake and say "darn it". Invaribly, the less experienced opponent makes you shoot again thinking you made a mistake and a quick glance shows the ball is still hooked.

You sink the shot or play a nasty kick safety hook. Obviously, you must know how to makle these shots, but it's amazing how often this ploy works. I don't thinks it's gamemanship or cheating at all - it's more like bluffing in cards or a fake field goal attempt in football - it's part of the strategy and fun of the sport.

Chris

Popcorn
11-07-2003, 04:41 PM
Stuff like that is petty, even if you could get away with it. Sometimes you have to show a little class, trying to pull stuff like that does not help make you a player. I won't try to pull anything, even if I think the other guy is trying to, I just am not wired like that. You may be surprised to see how classy many gambling players are. I saw Toby Sweet lose $15,000 to Wade Crane one night and never say a word. He shook his hand and said, "Nice Game". Moves like you described, won't make you a winner in the long run, and it won't do much for your reputation as well. Just my opinion

Chris Cass
11-07-2003, 05:10 PM
Hi Phil,

In the Midwest 9Ball Tour ran by Evelyn and Danny. Stipulate you must tell your opponent when they are on two fouls but remember this is also gentlemans call. This is not a move. What matters is that it's a game with skill, luck and respect for your opponent and integrity for yourself and the game. There's no integrity in that.

I know you wouldn't do such a thing. I also know how your mind works. Your very fascinated with every possible scenario on every subject ever known. LOL Anyway, I suggest buying a cheap break cue you can wack your opponent with in such a case where this comes up. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.

Chris Cass
11-07-2003, 05:14 PM
My goodness RR,

You an I think alike. I responded before I read your response to Phil. LOL

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif,

C.C.

phil in sofla
11-07-2003, 07:46 PM
I, like Maxwell Edison (majoring in medicine), study pataphysical science in the home, exceptions to the rule, and fringe topics on the border, or past, of respectability. That includes curiousity about things I might never do myself.

In pool, I have a goal to respect the game and its finer traditions, and to comport myself as a true gentleman. Since I don't have a gambling jones, am happy playing sets for nothing and restrict what little wagering I do to pictures of Lincoln rather than those of Jackson, Grant or Franklin, I find it easy enough to avoid any need for moves or hustles on my part. On occasion, I have committed the odd transgression against better pool decorum, usually out of ignorance, and I am grateful for any correction I receive.

My question was whether the tactic was technically accurate, AND whether it was respectable, legal or not. When I run across a possible gray area ethical question I don't have the experience to answer, I take it to my more experienced peers for an answer I can abide by. By the consensus of commenters whose opinions I respect, it is neither, and I thank all those who've helped me understand that answer.