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Wally_in_Cincy
11-12-2003, 08:18 AM
I just noticed this rule. I guess I was not aware of it because I have never seen it come up in a game.

<font color="red">"When an object ball is not frozen to a cushion, but is within a ballís width of a cushion (referee to determine by measurement if necessary), a player is permitted only two consecutive legal safeties on that ball using only the near rail. If such safety play is employed, that object ball is then considered frozen to the rail on the playerís next inning." </font color>

And an unrelated question:

Are there any special requirements on an intentional foul? Is it sufficient to simply tap the cueball with the cue tip? Or is there something else that I am not aware of?

Tom_In_Cincy
11-12-2003, 12:35 PM
Wally,

Its come up once that I can remember. A surprized look on my opponents face when I told him he was shooting under Frozen ball rules.

If I'm not mistaken, if a player is on a FOUL this changes to "ball is considered Frozen".

Tapping your cue tip or ferrule is acceptable. I have never liked the idea of intentional fouls. IMO, I think this is border line unsportsman like conduct.

After a player makes a foul (in 14.1) and plays the penalty, now the opponent intentional fouls to set up a possible 3 foul situation. I know it's part of the game and lots of player do it, but I really don't think it is in the best interest of playing 14.1 there is no skill in tapping the cue ball. It's just a blatant effort to use a rule to gain an advantage by those players that don't have the skill to win by pocketing balls and shooting good safes.

NO SKILLs Required for Tapping a Cue ball and taking an intentional FOUL.

Wally_in_Cincy
11-12-2003, 01:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Wally,

Its come up once that I can remember. A surprized look on my opponents face when I told him he was shooting under Frozen ball rules.

<font color="blue">Howdy there Tom.

It surprised me too to read that rule. </font color>

Tapping your cue tip or ferrule is acceptable. I have never liked the idea of intentional fouls. IMO, I think this is border line unsportsman like conduct.

<font color="blue">I've seen it happen more than once on my Accu-stats tapes. </font color>

....It's just a blatant effort to use a rule to gain an advantage by those players that don't have the skill to win by pocketing balls and shooting good safes.

<font color="blue">See, that's why I do it /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

Rod
11-12-2003, 01:40 PM
Wally,

I only recall seeing it happening one time. As for tapping the c/b, well I don't think that would have been a good idea years ago in a pro match. It might have become an accepted fad but I don't think it fits in a 14-1 game.

Rod

Popcorn
11-12-2003, 01:42 PM
The rule has reasons for existing, but situations come up that make it seem unfair. The worst loss I ever had was the result of this rule. I was playing a player. I scratched after just making a few balls. The guy I was playing ran I think 106 and got in trouble with no shot and the table open. Since I was on a foul, he just touched the cue ball and walked away. To make a long story short, I lost 150 to -12. I know why the rule is in place but sometimes it can be unfair.

Steve Lipsky
11-12-2003, 01:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> I have never liked the idea of intentional fouls. IMO, I think this is border line unsportsman like conduct.

After a player makes a foul (in 14.1) and pays the penalty, now the opponent intentional fouls to set up a possible 3 foul situation. I know it's part of the game and lots of player do it, but I really don't think it is in the best interest of playing 14.1 there is no skill in tapping the cue ball. It's just a blatant effort to use a rule to gain an advantage ...<hr /></blockquote>

Tom, I'm really surprised by this. The real penalty of fouling in 14.1 is not the point deduction; that is a pretty meaningless percentage of the total score. The real penalty is that if you are on the first foul, your opponent can "get away" with a bad roll. Say you foul, and I start to run balls but then get stuck on a break shot, I can just tap the cueball. This is why a player should take extreme care to not foul in 14.1 (imo). If I didn't have this advantage when you fouled, there would be no difference between you fouling and you missing. Don't you think there should be?

Also, in my opinion, the rule is there to protect the game from being abused - not the opposite. If a foul were simply a 1 point deduction, players would be bunting the cueball into the stack whenever they are faced with a tough shot/tough safe situation. The game would get crazy.

There's also a lot of strategy involved with this play. Many times the best players will not simply tap it, they will move it a hair - purposely changing the position of the cueball just slightly. This can mean all the difference between leaving your opponent a very easy return safe - and none.

- Steve

Wally_in_Cincy
11-12-2003, 02:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr>

...Also, in my opinion, the rule is there to protect the game from being abused - not the opposite. If a foul were simply a 1 point deduction, players would be bunting the cueball into the stack whenever they are faced with a tough shot/tough safe situation. The game would get crazy.

<font color="blue">Sort of like the ball-in-hand rule in 8-ball and 9-ball. </font color>

There's also a lot of strategy involved with this play. Many times the best players will not simply tap it, they will move it a hair - purposely changing the position of the cueball just slightly. This can mean all the difference between leaving your opponent a very easy return safe - and none.

<font color="blue">If I'm doing this I will often push the cue ball deeper into the pack. But like you said, just a hair can make the difference. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Tom_In_Cincy
11-12-2003, 02:35 PM
Steve,

I agree with your comments and understand the strategy you pointed out.

My postion is from experience playing with amature players, not at the pro level (an altogether differnent mind set).

Tom_In_Cincy
11-12-2003, 02:41 PM
Wally,

I've seen it done at the pro level too, but like Steve L. mentioned the penalty is easily made up when you can run 100+ when it's your turn at the table. If you can get that chance again.

At the amature level (you and me) the penalty is much more (race to 100pts) when either players has trouble runing more than 10-20 balls. Minus 18 points is a bear of a penalty in a race to 100.

Steve Lipsky
11-12-2003, 03:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I scratched after just making a few balls. The guy I was playing ran I think 106 and got in trouble with no shot and the table open. Since I was on a foul, he just touched the cue ball and walked away. I know why the rule is in place but sometimes it can be unfair. <hr /></blockquote>

Popcorn, you know I am a big fan of yours but I am having trouble with your viewpoint on this one. You ran some balls and then scratched. Don't you think you deserved to be in a worse position (strategically) than if you ran some balls and then missed?

- Steve

Popcorn
11-12-2003, 04:21 PM
When you put it that way it makes sense.