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View Full Version : League/tournament rules v. sportsmanship? (long)



phil in sofla
11-13-2003, 08:11 PM
Last night I invoked a league rule that is well known to all, had it confirmed by the official from the league whose ruling is final and unappealable, and got trashed for acting on that ruling, to the point that the opposing captain and my opponent in that game refused the traditional handshake, saying I was dishonorable and had ruined my reputation permanently, among the repeatable charges. While I was comfortable making the call at the time, and the opinion of those guys isn't that important to me, the heated reaction dismayed me, and I have been stewing over it that night and today. I would appreciate any positive or negative responses, to gauge the right or wrong of this.

Down to one object ball each, both close to the right foot corner, mine makeable, his tied up behind mine, I had to use the bridge. The 8 was hanging around the right side pocket, in the line of the bridge, and I nudged it while setting up the bridge. For 6 or 7 of the past years, that wouldn't have been a foul in this league, as we only played cue ball fouls. For the past two seasons, this last year, we have gone to any ball moving is a foul. Accordingly, I stopped my shot preparation, as I knew it was a ball in hand foul, waiting for the player to call it.

We have always had a rule that only the player, and a predesignated coach, may call fouls on the opponent. (I'm not sure of the exact reason for this, other than to make players pay attention, and limit the amount of people involved in making calls, I guess.) This rule has been effect for over 10 years. The rule further states that should someone ineligible to call the foul calls it before anyone else, the foul is not a foul, and the player making it plays on. My opponent had predesignated his coach, who was not the captain. Both of them were behind me, and evidently, didn't see that I had moved the 8 slightly, or at least didn't call it before the captain, who was ineligible to call it, but was better situated to see it, did make that call.

The league officials aren't supposed to make any calls on their own unless called on to rule, or if a call is disputed. I mentioned to him that the captain was not eligible to call the foul, and by rule, the foul was cancelled. The official instantly agreed, ruled that there had been no foul because of his talking out of turn, and told me I had ball in hand on that transgression.

Now I thought that the first part of his ruling was correct, but that he was mistaken that it was ball in hand, and I told him so-- that I should only be shooting where I had been before the call and reversal. The official strongly affirmed he was correct, and amid the catcalls from the captain who had violated the rules with his call, warning me that no real man would accept that ruling to get out of a foul, I did take ball in hand for a normal bridged shot on the last object ball, trivial shape to the 8 in the side, and the win. It was maybe 5% easier than what I had, although not involving using the bridge.

Later review of the rule book showed I should not have been awarded ball in hand, as I suspected. (Although I had only read through the rules once early in the season, and I had been later surprised at some rule changes I hadn't noticed on first reading, so I figured the official must have known what he was talking about). The official had confused this situation with when someone, thinking a foul has been made, moves the cue ball before the foul has been verfied. Not that the ball in hand was necessary to get out from there, or even especially helpful, and not that they were complaining about that part of the ruling. They were upset that the foul was being cancelled, and that I was going with that call instead of giving up ball in hand (even with ball in hand, the guy wouldn't have had an out from there).

One of my players, who was the captain of the opposing team (ineligible to play for either team, he designated someone acting captain), said he would have made the same call I did, 'but it's wrong.' Kato said he would have probably picked up the cue ball and handed it to the opponent before the call. The rest of my team supported what I did.

Without a doubt, cancelling the foul is what the rules say 'shall' be done in that circumstance, and what the official would have done on his own, had he been allowed to rule alone, prior to appeals or disputes. The league takes that rule seriously, and enforces it. To me, that part of it, being legal, and actually required by the rules, isn't much of a question (although it was THE question, for the opponents). I was conflicted about taking the ball in hand, feeling fairly sure that the ruling was wrong (although not subject to appeal). I could have quickly scanned the rule book, and/or simply shot from where I was with the bridge, relying on my memory (already proven shaky) rather than the official's call.

What level of sportsmanship should be the standard when in a structured league or tournament rule situation? The letter of the rules, or good sportsmanship, beyond the rules? One could argue that the slight touch on the cue ball, although a foul, could be let go without a call, if it didn't appreciably aid the shooter, but probably all of us call that foul. If you make a 3rd consecutive foul in 9-ball, but the opponent failed to call you on two, do you concede the game anyway (since the 3rd foul isn't in doubt)? I DO call 'invisible' fouls, such as a double hit on the cue ball, on myself in league or tournament play, but I let the opponent call me on two consecutive fouls, or the loss on three consecutive fouls. If they don't do that correctly, I'm not resigning the game, nor do I consider that bad sportsmanship, in that setting, where the requirements to get a win on fouls are spelled out to everyone's knowledge. I think what I did in the case I'm discussing is the same, because rules were in place that everyone knew or should have known, and they were abided by.

Am I kidding myself here?

mike_in_iowa
11-13-2003, 09:15 PM
I agree with what you did. In a team situation you do what is best for the team regrardless of your feelings. Remember what you do effects everybody on your team. Another thing is that in league matches you have a lot of players who are not serious players and call the nittiest things. Do unto others before they do it to you first. That is the the league motto.

In a singles match I wouldn't do it but in teams I have seen the craziest things.

mike

JPB
11-13-2003, 09:41 PM
This is why leagues are so stupid. You were out of line IMO, but the league rules backed you up. And then the other team acted like jackasses. You all deserved each other here. The fact that you have a whole rule book telling you who is eligible to call fouls tells you that you are about to engage in a childish venture with little sportsmanship. If you like rules disputes, leagues are great. Not how I like to spend my leisure time. Had I been your opponent I wouldn't have made a big issue of it or gone nuts and called you names. But handshake? Uh, no. Unscrew and go quietly. But I would remember, and give you what you want next time. A match where all the rules are observed rigidly. Well, no I wouldn't, because I wouldn't have been in the happy fun 8 ball league to begin with.


(Have I ever been critical of the attitude prevalent in leagues B4? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif)

Rod
11-13-2003, 10:24 PM
Phil,

An awful lot of text for a fairly simple matter. Jeez, league Officials, Captains, designated Coaches er who else was there that couldn't simplify this? LOL

Quote Phil (While I was comfortable making the call at the time, and the opinion of those guys isn't that important to me)

If it's not important then you must have made the right call. At any rate it seems your technically correct. I think if that foul is as normal (if you will) as touching the c/b then you should have just handed him the c/b. It sounds like he couldn't have won from there anyway. If however it's (catch me if you can, and the correct way), then I suppose anything goes. It's up to the veteran players to set an example for the new players.

I personally think the rules are screwed up. Nothing like making the game more difficult and full of technicalities. I'm glad I don't play league. Having an arguement isn't unusual it seems.

Rod

Ralph S.
11-13-2003, 10:30 PM
I disagree with you JPB, from the stand point that you called everyone "jackasses" including Phil. From what he states, its seems he didnt engage in the childish behavior as you called the actions of all of them. Some, maybe did act like that. Several key points here stand out:
1>rules are rules..the opponents were given ample time to
call the foul and did not do so.
2>the wrong person called the foul which is a violation
itself.
3>most importantly, the ones allowed to call foul from the
opposing team should have positioned themselves better to
clearly see the shot.

Number 3 as I listed is the most important key here and that was their own fault. I bet they learn from the mistake.

I do agrre with you Phil, and think you handled the situation appropriately. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

tateuts
11-13-2003, 11:18 PM
It's cut and dry. When you join an organized sport, you must learn the rules and play by them. You did this. The opposing team knows you followed the rules, objected to the rules themselves, and showed unsportsmanlike conduct.

Don't be surprised if they apologize to you in the future - they owe you one.

Chris

AndyG
11-14-2003, 06:57 AM
Phil, The situation you describe is the primary reason I quit league play several years ago. Most leagues make a rule to cover a specific situation, then have to make 2 more rules to correct errors in the 1st one.

Someone in this thread made the comment that your personal feelings don't count, that the team is all that matters. I disagree, you must first satisfy yourself that you're doing the right thing. You're the one that has to live with it.

'To thine ownself be true'

AndyG

JimS
11-14-2003, 07:08 AM
What a load of pure unadulterated crap.

AndyG
11-14-2003, 07:10 AM
JimS, I assume something in my post was disagreeable to you?

AndyG

JimS
11-14-2003, 07:19 AM
No Andy! I replied to the original post....don't know why/how it shows I replied to you....I must have clicked in the wrong place. Sorry. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

JimS
11-14-2003, 07:25 AM
.........and I wish I'd not have replied at all since my reply is wholly based on my emotions regarding my experience with leagues....an emotional, reactionairy response with little if any guidance from the intellect. I regret having said anything. Leagues are the most frustrating load of crap I've ever encountered and are a PERFECT way to ruin a beautiful pool shooting experience. Pool itself is beautiful...the response of the balls to the proper stimulus provided by the cue is PURE pleasure. League play makes it all feel like open running cancerous sores. AAAAHHHHHHH!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

pooltchr
11-14-2003, 07:32 AM
I think this is a stupid rule and you were within your rights to take ball in hand when the official made his ruling. As to the sportsmanship question, if I foul, I will usually call it on myself before anyone else has the opportunity.

Popcorn
11-14-2003, 07:40 AM
Seem to be a difference when it come to team sports. I would call it on myself if I was to only one effected, but I am sure the team would me mad at you if you did that. I think I just remembered why I didn't like leagues. Every night if it isn't one thing it is another. Rather just go to the pool room and match up or play in tournaments.

AndyG
11-14-2003, 08:00 AM
JimS, No problem, maybe I'm just a little touchy today.
Sounds as if a lot of us agree on the 'league experience'.

I guess i shouldn't belittle the leagues. As a room owner, they do provide additional income on slower nights. Seems as if leagues are a good way to get initially involved in competition, but most serious players I know get disenchanted with them fairly quickly.
Have a good day, Jim.

AndyG

Fred Agnir
11-14-2003, 08:24 AM
Here are my thoughts:

There is no way to cover every rule infraction possible for every situation. What is fair in one situation may not be fair in another.

If you knew it was a foul, then I think you should call it on yourself. If you didn't, and no other crazy mayhem happened afterwards, your question on the board today would be "would you have called a foul on yourself" depending on the outcome.

Finally, sometimes you just have to do what's right. Regardless of nit-picky rules (see paragraph #1) Keeping everyone happy (including yourself) allows for a fun night. That includes the present and the future. Leauge isn't important enough to have disgruntled opponents attacking your character when you're not there to defend it. And they will attack your character for, ... at least a year. All that meaning, you knew you shouldn't take ball-in-hand. It didn't make much of a difference. Don't give them the opportunity to say that you beat them by using a rule. It ain't worth the headache.

Fred <~~~ FWIW

Wally_in_Cincy
11-14-2003, 09:09 AM
You need to petition your league to change back to cue ball fouls only /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

In a situation where alcohol is involved object ball fouls can be rampant.
------------------------
re: your situation...

I probably would have called the foul on myself, unless I was playing for a trip to Vegas.

You were well within the rules but if you did not need to take BIH it would have caused fewer hard feelings if you had not. Oh well, hindsight is 20-20

Rich R.
11-14-2003, 09:27 AM
Phil, it seems you may been in a no win situation.
Not calling the foul on yourself made the opposing team angry.
If you called the foul on yourself, you would have made your own team angry.

I think I would prefer that the other team be angry at me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

UWPoolGod
11-14-2003, 10:27 AM
We had a mishap in our APA match on Thursday...basically cause the guy on the other team was a tard. Isn't it right that the ONLY time you NEED to call safe is when you call safe, pocket your ball, and then it's the other guys shot?
You don't NEED to call safe...just make a legal hit/rail and not commit a foul.

A player on our team played this shot:

START(
%CL5N9%Ef5F0%Hc4F2%MI3Q5%NP3J9%PY8J5%Uj0D4%Vr9G4%W e4G6%XZ6J4
%Yg4D2%Zg0E2%[r2H0%\f5G4%]h1F7%^h1D3%eA5`5
)END

He did not CALL SAFE and did not CALL A POCKET, just played the shot and left him bad. Most of the time we don't call a pocket when playing BIHCP anyway, pretty obvious most of the time. The guy started arguing that it was a foul because he didn't call safe or a pocket. Too much beer I guess, but we eventually got him striaghtened out. It's just like if you accidentally miss a straight in shot and leave the opposing player hooked, just the other guy knew it was intentional and didn't like the leave.

cycopath
11-14-2003, 10:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> You need to petition your league to change back to cue ball fouls only /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

In a situation where alcohol is involved object ball fouls can be rampant.
<hr /></blockquote>

You are exactly right, Wally.

Wally_in_Cincy
11-14-2003, 10:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UWPoolGod:</font><hr> ...APA match....

...Isn't it right that the ONLY time you NEED to call safe is when you call safe, pocket your ball, and then it's the other guys shot?

<font color="blue">I don't think you can do that in APA. If you pocket a ball you must continue shooting. You can do that in BCA I believe. </font color>

You don't NEED to call safe...just make a legal hit/rail and not commit a foul.

<font color="blue">That is correct. In APA you are not required to call "safe" </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

Iowashark
11-14-2003, 10:55 AM
I think when it comes to sportsmanship the sportsmanlike thing to have done would be to call the foul on yourself. The unsportsmanlike thing would be to wait for them to call the foul and use a rule to get a second chance, IMO.

Dave

UWPoolGod
11-14-2003, 10:59 AM
Yeah I think you are right...I messed up...this was in our fun league BIHCP...in which the call safe/pocketball/your turn technique is allowed.

Steve Lipsky
11-14-2003, 11:20 AM
Iowashark wrote:

"I think when it comes to sportsmanship the sportsmanlike thing to have done would be to call the foul on yourself. The unsportsmanlike thing would be to wait for them to call the foul and use a rule to get a second chance, IMO."


I agree. Also, if I were on a team where a team member called the foul on himself - hill/hill for Vegas or not - I would be proud of him. And I would be happy to be on such a team. I would feel like a thief if I got a paid trip to Vegas because my teammate fouled and did not get caught.

- Steve

DoomCue
11-14-2003, 11:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Here are my thoughts:

There is no way to cover every rule infraction possible for every situation. What is fair in one situation may not be fair in another.

If you knew it was a foul, then I think you should call it on yourself. If you didn't, and no other crazy mayhem happened afterwards, your question on the board today would be "would you have called a foul on yourself" depending on the outcome.

Finally, sometimes you just have to do what's right. Regardless of nit-picky rules (see paragraph #1) Keeping everyone happy (including yourself) allows for a fun night. That includes the present and the future. Leauge isn't important enough to have disgruntled opponents attacking your character when you're not there to defend it. And they will attack your character for, ... at least a year. All that meaning, you knew you shouldn't take ball-in-hand. It didn't make much of a difference. Don't give them the opportunity to say that you beat them by using a rule. It ain't worth the headache.

Fred &lt;~~~ FWIW <hr /></blockquote>

Fred, great post. If only more league players thought this way, leagues would be a little more tolerable.

Phil,

You should have called the foul YOU committed. You knew you fouled, and you tried to get out of it by waiting for the other team to call it. Somebody did call it, and it just happened to be "the wrong person" semantically. What the hell difference does it make who called the foul? The person who was supposed to call it couldn't see it. Did that factor into your decision to show your lack of moral fiber? You fouled, you knew you fouled, somebody saw you foul, and called it out. Then you use a loophole to not only get out of your own foul, but then get BIH? It's players who do these types of things who make league impossible to enjoy. The game should be played and decided on the table, not by a loophole or your own lack of moral character. While you followed the letter of the law, you totally missed the spirit of the law (and I'm sure there are plenty of people on this board who will need that statement explained to them /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif ). Is winning a league match more important than self-respect and pride?

Sorry about the soapbox tone, but these kinds of things really burn my ass. All you have to do is ask yourself if you would want somebody else to do that to you, and if the answer is no, you shouldn't have done it. In the end, nobody will remember the game, whether or not you were any good, or what you were wearing. They will only remember your blatant lack of sportsmanship. You ask, "What level of sportsmanship should be the standard when in a structured league or tournament rule situation?" Really, are there LEVELS of sportsmanship now? Jeez, what the hell is wrong with society? That's like saying, "I would've called the foul on myself if it was the first game of the set, but not if it was hill-hill." That's ridiculous. You're either a practitioner of good sportsmanship or not. There are no varying LEVELS of sportsmanship. If you think there are, you probably don't practice good sportsmanship.

-djb &lt;-- waiting for somebody to ask, "What defines good sportsmanship?" (Hint: if you have to ask....)

Steve Lipsky
11-14-2003, 11:38 AM
Nice post, Doom.

Wally_in_Cincy
11-14-2003, 11:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr>

I agree. Also, if I were on a team where a team member called the foul on himself - hill/hill for Vegas or not - I would be proud of him. And I would be happy to be on such a team. I would feel like a thief if I got a paid trip to Vegas because my teammate fouled and did not get caught.

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

And you are right of course.

You would be surprised how many times I have called fouls on myself only to be chastised by one or more teammates. They are all fine people except they don't really understand this.

If you have never really played anywhere outside of the Hamiltucky APA, the culture of the league breeds this "win with the rulebook" mentality.

I hate to say this but women are the worst about this (including my girlfriend/teammate). If I pick up the cueball and hand it to my opponent she gets on me about it. The theory is... if the opponent picks it up he may touch another ball and I can call a foul on him. Isn't that childish? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

But that's the culture she has played in for the last decade, mostly on ladies' teams, so I have to cut her a little bit of slack.

Steve, I knew somebody would pick up on my "Playing for Vegas" comment but I left it in because, in that situation, I would have to suffer the wrath of my teammates.

After reading your post and Doom's post regarding "levels of sportsmanship" (I like that) I would definitely call it on myself. I would sleep better at night.

Fred Agnir
11-14-2003, 12:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UWPoolGod:</font><hr> We had a mishap in our APA match on Thursday...basically cause the guy on the other team was a tard. Isn't it right that the ONLY time you NEED to call safe is when you call safe, pocket your ball, and then it's the other guys shot?<hr /></blockquote> There are no called safeties in APA. So, no, it's not right.

Likewise, there's no called shots at all, other than the 8-ball in APA.


Fred

UWPoolGod
11-14-2003, 12:51 PM
Yeah I know, I clarified that in my next post up above. It was in our county mens league on Tuesday (was thinking about last night and typed wrong) which is BIHCP.

Iowashark
11-14-2003, 01:03 PM
I must not have read the entire post. I think if I had made the call you made I would've gotten chastised by my teammates rather than if I had not. I think the key to the situation which probably caused all the ruccus with the other team was that you committed a foul, and in turn got BIH for committing a foul. The foul they committed wasn't even on the table.
I for one love league night because my team consists of my 4 best friends and it's a nice release for me to get away from the stress of work, and the nagging of my wife. There should always be one unwritten rule.

Keep it real.

Dave

Tom_In_Cincy
11-14-2003, 02:35 PM
Phil,

IMO, when you fouled, you knew you fouled, and you know you have to pay the penalty.

I am sure you would have slept better last nite if you acknowledged the foul when the team captain called it.

fast_eddie_B
11-14-2003, 03:28 PM
This situation reminds me of a match i shot in the tap league the one session i played. I was freestroking this guy and the out was there, so i ran out very fast and forgot to mark my pocket on the eight ball. I was straight in on it, for god sake. So I lost the game, when i really won, all over a technicality that should be a given. Leagues upset me very much. Mostly because of the type of people who shoot in them. Leagues, in my personal opinion, are for beginners and when you put a team together that is stong they get bumped and bumped up until you can't fulfill your matches. It really makes me sick. My friends team just came back from Vegas. They were told by the regional league director that their team couldn't play in the league no more, because the other teams in the league were too weak and that if they didn't quit the other teams would quit. Funny thing is, when asked, the other teams didn't acknowledge saying these things, which makes it seem like it is coming only from the regional director. Will there ever be a league out there for people whom actually shoot well. It's ludicris to kick a team out whom is supposedly too good. It's not like they didn't bump there players up in rank. That stupid 25 point rule (tap)/ 23 point rule (apa) is a joke. It promotes sandbagging. And what is really wacked is a the 5 or 6's from my area play as well as the 3 and 4's from like the philly area because the level of play is higher there.
Anyways, you bumped the eight with the stick, you should have said i bumped the eight with my stick, the eight should have been replaced to its original position or left as is at the opponents discression, and you should have played your shot from where it was. For a league official to make such a careless ruling as to give you ball in hand because the wrong person called a foul is ridiculous. If anything your opponent should get ball in hand.
I had a guy mess me up in a tournament last night. I was spotting him the six. I pocketed the six, then on the seven i missed it and scratched. Then he asked me if his spot ball comes up and i'm like no, then he precided in getting a ruling from the tournament director. I was a little disturbed with this person's ignorance and i ended up losing that set. The conclusion i came across as to why i lost the set was that i let my opponent get in my head and started playing him and not the balls. I did not play perfect, i didn't lock him up when i needed to and he got some lucky leaves which is all you need when you are getting spotted and can run three balls.

phil in sofla
11-14-2003, 06:48 PM
I appreciate all the responses, and thanks for them. As I suspected would be true, they run the gamut from support to condemnation of varying degrees.

To clarify the situation a little, and correct some misimpressions some seem to have, I wasn't angling to buy time to get out of a foul, hoping no one had seen it. It was obvious, not some minor bare touch that maybe no one saw. The 8 moved two inches or so. I had no thought or hope that the player or his coach were blocked from viewing this, I assumed the contrary, and I still don't know that they were in fact blocked, or wouldn't have called it themselves within the next few seconds. It was bang-bang, first the nudge of the 8, and within a second or so, the captain improperly calling the foul. It is entirely possible that he beat their call by a nose.

My intention was to replace the bridge in the holder below the table, and retire to my chair without comment, not to 'play through' a shot I had fouled on. Ending my inning without stroking a shot could only have meant I fouled, which would be the question asked-- 'fouled?,' to which I would have said 'yes.' There is no requirement to call yourself on a foul in this league, just to truthfully admit it upon challenge. Although as I mentioned, if it is more or less an invisible foul that only the player can tell for sure, say, a double hit on the cue ball as you follow through, I do, in league, and elsewhere. If I happen to foul the cue ball on address in league, I don't hurry up and stroke through, hoping no one saw and that I'll get away with it. I retire from the table, and again, that can only indicate I fouled, even without explicitly stating it.

The way I'm thinking about it, in a structured environment of a league or a tournament, those rules, while often containing ridiculous BS, are known and agreed to by all, and are the proper guidelines. All the more so when one is dealing with an official call from a league official or a TD.

Take the tournies where the 9 must be called, even if it is the last ball and a straight in shot, or else the shooter making it doesn't win. Ridiculous, and highly nonstandard, to where even world class players forget to make that call and lose a game that by any normal standard they just won (some obscure player named Efren comes to mind). Should the opponent be required, as a matter of normal standards of play and sportsmanship, to say, forget the requirement, give him the game anyway, and I'm racking? Or does the rule of that tournament make the opponent who accepts that man losing when he just won, on this kind of technicality, blameless as to sportsmanship? Given that the 9 shot was obvious, and made, should any player just concede the game properly won, and would it be unsportsmanlike to invoke a rule 'robbing' a man from a win that he'd have in almost every other possible setting of the game?

As ridiculous as that rule is for a 9 ball shot that is obvious, the rule says making the 9 without the explicit call doesn't win the game, and just about ensures it will instead result in a loss, when the 9 is spotted up. Do you let that rule cause the opponent to lose a game he just 'won,' or gut the intention of the rule by insisting it not apply?

Or imagine you are spotting someone the called 7, and it is hanging around the jaws. They fail to call anything, but the carom/tangent line of the shot they're attempting puts the 7 down. Do you concede the game, or instead tell them the game is still live, and their inning continues, but they didn't win for failure to call the 7? Lastly, what if you call the TD or official over to make a call on a close hit, they call it a good hit, but you suspect it wasn't. Do you then overrule the ruling you asked for, or go with the call?

Maybe these points about technicalities in other settings aren't exactly comparable to the situation I described, but they raise related questions. Do the general courtesies and sportsmanship standards of individual match play apply entirely to the more structured settings, or does one properly vary the standards, according to the setting?

We've all heard the stories of pro golfers losing a round's score, and being eliminated from the leader board, for failure to sign their score cards. Since they really did score the round they wrote down, failing only that technicality, should all the other players decide the infraction didn't merit such a severe punishment, and those finishing in the money volunteer to pay the guy where he'd have placed by reducing their share of the purse proportionately?

Assuming fair notice in advance to all participating as to the peculiarities and technical requirements, does sportsmanship actually require one to aid others in avoiding the consequences of their actions under the rules?

JPB
11-14-2003, 08:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph S.:</font><hr> I disagree with you JPB, from the stand point that you called everyone "jackasses" including Phil. From what he states, its seems he didnt engage in the childish behavior as you called the actions of all of them. Some, maybe did act like that. Several key points here stand out:
1&gt;rules are rules..the opponents were given ample time to
call the foul and did not do so.
2&gt;the wrong person called the foul which is a violation
itself.
3&gt;most importantly, the ones allowed to call foul from the
opposing team should have positioned themselves better to
clearly see the shot.

Number 3 as I listed is the most important key here and that was their own fault. I bet they learn from the mistake.

I do agrre with you Phil, and think you handled the situation appropriately. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

I did not call the poster a jackass. Reread my post. I did ascribe that quality to the other team. I said the poster was out of line, and IMO he was. I would not have called the "wrong guy called the foul foul so now my foul isn't a foul anymore foul" and if I were given BIH when it wasn't warranted, I would take a deliberate and give BIH to the other guy. That's my opinion. I do not think he was a jackass about it, but I do think his conduct was less than sportsmanlike. I think the other team acted like jackasses. I said they deserved each other and in leagues they do. So I don't think Phil is a jackass, but I do think his behavior should be different in an ideal world. Perhaps he disagrees. I do admit his conduct was within the rules.

Again, why I don't play leagues. If there isn't a gun brandished, it was a successful and sportsmanlike league night. Because when I played leagues grown men damn near got in gun fights.

P.S. Along these lines. When I was about 21 I played in various hellholes and leagues. One of them was a biker bar. And I am no biker. I was a punk college boy. I played a little tourn sometimes at this biker bar. I never had a problem. If you just behave as you would in a place where everybody is armed but you and in a fight you will get stomped by 6 guys, league night should be fun for all.

Tom_In_Cincy
11-14-2003, 10:31 PM
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Do the general courtesies and sportsmanship standards of individual match play apply entirely to the more structured settings, or does one properly vary the standards, according to the setting?

<font color="blue"> IMO personal standards should apply to any GAME. You are the one that has to live with your decisions, consistancy makes it easier. </font color>

We've all heard the stories of pro golfers losing a round's score, and being eliminated from the leader board, for failure to sign their score cards. Since they really did score the round they wrote down, failing only that technicality, should all the other players decide the infraction didn't merit such a severe punishment, and those finishing in the money volunteer to pay the guy where he'd have placed by reducing their share of the purse proportionately?

<font color="blue">In all the years I've been following PRO golf, I'v nerver heard of a golfer saying this is a STUPID Rule. But, as you've pointed out, at the start of the EVENT, all the particpants, should have acknowledged the rules. </font color>

Assuming fair notice in advance to all participating as to the peculiarities and technical requirements, does sportsmanship actually require one to aid others in avoiding the consequences of their actions under the rules?

<font color="blue"> NO, it doesn't require it, but when you are shooting at the 7 ball and the 6 is still on the table, wouldn't you appreciate your opponent telling you? Of course it's not necessary to HELP.

But what do you call the act of warning you about almost fouling? </font color>
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