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04-16-2002, 12:05 PM
I am doing research for my undergratuate thesis about women playing pool. I am trying to figure out why women and men compete seperatly. In Washington,PA pool league women and men are on the same teams, why is this not always the case? Do men have an advantage like they do in Physical sports (i.e. Basketball)? If so what and if not why do they compete seperatly?

Tom_In_Cincy
04-16-2002, 12:19 PM
Its because the Women have their own organization and tournaments.
Its because the Men have their own tournaments and multiple organizations (over the years)
Pro sports have always seperated the sexes, because of money, and the restrictions of the organizations.

The "Open" tournaments have always been open to the Ladies, except when the Organizations got too restrictive.

I would think the women would like the opportunity to play against the men in any tournament

The Louisville KY annual Derby City Classic (Jan. 2003) is OPEN to anyone and some of the LADY Pros have made good showings there.

I would love to see the top 5 players from the Men's and Ladies' organization in a Shoot em Out bang up tournamet.. Can you imagine the headlines?

Doctor_D
04-16-2002, 12:23 PM
Good afternoon:

It would be my pleasure to provide some details for you on this topic. Please feel free to E-Mail me directly.

Dr. D.

Tom_In_Cincy
04-16-2002, 01:06 PM
Would it be possible for you to share these same details to CCB?
I would be interested to see them here.

Doctor_D
04-16-2002, 01:07 PM
Good afternoon Tom:

I will share with you what can be made public.

Dr. D.

04-16-2002, 01:30 PM
,,who would absolutely jump all over D if he ever said what everyone knows.

04-16-2002, 01:31 PM
women can play in a lot of men's tourneys. they choose not to.

Doctor_D
04-16-2002, 01:32 PM
Good afternoon Arnie:

I am bit confused, would you please explain.

Dr. D.

Vagabond
04-16-2002, 02:02 PM
Hello Mates,
It started as a tradition (more than a century ago)based on the socialogical factors at that time.At that time,I do not think,money was not the motivator.In ancient greece women were not even allowed to come to the arena to watch any sporting event and violators had death as the penalty.One time one lady covered herself with a blanket and came to see a sporting event.She braved the death penalty and this made the Law makers to reconsider their views on women.gradually women were allowed to come to watch and subsequently compete with their own sex.In 1896 modern olympics were started and after that things have improved for the women.Till recently authorities thought women cannot do pole vaulting and hence did not have it in the olympics.But now they have Pole vaulting for women in olympics.Every thing is a gradual change.So it has been a tradition based on the views of men about women.In the recent times money might have muddied the waters.It is all going to change gradually in the next 50 years.
I am having problems with the computer and if u see this message several times,I beg for your parden.
No worries mates,
Vagabond

Tom_In_Cincy
04-16-2002, 02:06 PM
I believe the title of this thread is "women in pool"
But, your point of referring to the olympics is valid even now.. though the penalty has been reduce from 'death' to lower incomes.. and prize money..

Vagabond
04-16-2002, 02:43 PM
Hello Mates,
It is pool ,I undertand.
Men and women are seperated in every sport, including pool,based on other sociological issues rather than money matters.Pool is not different from the other sports when socialogical factors are applied.So changes in pool, just like other sports, will be dependant on the general climate in the society.To repeat,this matter is dependant more on the society`s belief system on gender issues.The things that apply to other sports also apply to pool.Hang in there,things will change for better.No worries mates.
vagabond

Scott Lee
04-17-2002, 12:48 AM
Emma...Men and women compete on the same league teams all across the nation...just like where you live. All three major organized leagues (APA, BCA, VNEA) allow men and women on the same teams (which are called OPEN divisions), as well as having separate women's team divisions. The only league that allows men and women to compete against each other in a tournament setting (singles) is APA. VNEA and BCA Nationals are separate divisions for men and women. Why? Who knows for sure, but I agree with Vagabond, that it is more of a belief than specifically a gender issue, and I think it will change in the future (although I hope it doesn't take 50 yrs!). These days, the pro women are better organized than the men...but NOBODY is making a killing on the 'pool circuit', with the possible exception of exhibition players like myself! That is where the $$$ is, but the egos of many of the top players won't allow them to take advantage of an enormous potential market...that, and the fact that many of them are just great players, but with no real personality!
You must be a 'showman' to make a living at it, rather than just a 'champion' player. Myself, I am NO champion, but can play a little, and am an above average teacher, who really loves the game! I travel the country performing trick shot shows and teaching in the university market, 200 days a year, and make a very nice living doing something I am absolutely passionate about!

Scott Lee

cuechick
04-17-2002, 07:36 PM
Hi emma,
I beleive the only real advantage men have over women is sheer numbers. There are aprox 20 men to every 1 woman that plays seriously. Men also on the average start much earlier than women. Hope that helps.

04-17-2002, 10:41 PM
There are a lot of historical reasons for the separation, and there are some basic physiological differences that also account for the difference in men's and women's abilities in the sport. Some of those differences tend to be the in the areas of spatial perception, eye-hand coordination ad mathematical abilities. These differences have not neccesarily been proven to be totally physical differences, but there has been a definite cultural influence towards males developing abilities in these areas to a greater degree than women. I have found, in my own experience, that pool is one of the few sports in which women are not at as great a disadvantage, because sheer physical strength is not a major factor. What is required is a level of concentration, and a willingness to understand all the aspects of the game. I personally play in a league with an "open" format- teams may be comprised of players of any gender as long as they are human.We have all female teams, all male teams, and mixed teams competing within the same divisions.There are still more males who play the sport competitively than females, however, and the mix in our league reflect that. In our state tournament I do play singles competition in the women's division,(for one thing, it is a smaller field!) but for team competition I prefer to play the open, so that I play with men and women. The majority of the teams are still all men, but over the years we have seen a definite increase in the number of teams in the open division that have women players. Scott mentioned the national tournament format, and I would like to mention that women may certainly enter any of the Open Divisions. There are a number of teams that play in the Open, which is still considered a primarily Men's Division. I do not know of many women who play that division in the singles, however. Don't want to go on forever, but maybe others will post thoughts on this- Patti Ireland

04-17-2002, 11:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Patti_I:</font><hr> pool is one of the few sports in which women are not at as great a disadvantage, because sheer physical strength is not a major factor. Patti Ireland <hr></blockquote>

i usually avoid these discussions like they've got cooties but you've put forth a thoughtful and well reasoned opening.

damned if i can figure it out.

like you said, it ain't brawn. i'm skeptical about the idea that the fact that men do geometry stuff better really matters at the end of the day. i think the truth of that truism is that "men take to it more readily" but that women can and do learn it as well or better with some interest and effort.

we all know that alot of the really best male shooters gave up life at age 12 or so to do nothing else until much later if ever. are there women out there who have dropped out of school to go out on the road??

i'm just having trouble believing, with what i know of women, that it's a hard-wired issue. seems societal.

dan...come 'roun more often patti.

stickman
04-18-2002, 12:12 AM
I would agree. I know of no reason that a female couldn't play as well as a male. If a woman started at an early age and dedicated themselves to the game of pool, I would think they could achieve the same level of play as any male. I think for the most part, women start later, and are more prone to playing for fun, with there boy friends and ect. There are exceptions. I'm speaking in generalities. I also believe it is a societal matter. As a rule, young girls have other interests, and society somewhat dictates what they should be.

cheesemouse
04-18-2002, 08:23 AM
All,
This is back door pool related. I would normally, like Dan, avoid this question like the spinal meningitis. It's like the 'do I look fat in this outfit' question and us males who are paying attention have antenna specially designed to alert us to incoming. On to my example: The other day four college students three guys and one girl paid their greens fees(golf course) and then the three guys stepped back from the desk and spun the tee in the air, normally this is done to determine who tee's off first, second etc. on the first tee, In this case it was to determine who got the girl as a partner; she was the better player of the four. The guy the tee pointed too got the girl as partner and he did a celebration jubilation dance, stuck it too his buddys acouple times and then they all joyfully left for the first tee box. This girl was so cool and comfortable in this whole situation that it got me to thinking that there is a new type of woman emerging. I wish it would have happened when I was young. I really like this new lady.

cuechick
04-18-2002, 08:33 AM
I agree with these last 3 posts for the most part, I am not so sure about the math thing. I do believe however that men are better at concentrating on 1 thing. Again this is a general statement, I think this is a common trait among elite atheltes. Studies have shown women in genrel have more complicated thought patterns and tend to think about many things at once... I know this is true for me, I have caught myself many time staring at the table but thinking about what I want for dinner or some other totally unrelated task!
I do compete against men all the time and am very confident against men at my level. I think sometimes it's easier to play men then women!
As I said the numbers are the key seperating factor. If you had to find just 10 high quality diamonds, you'd have a lot better luck from a bag of 1000 than a bag of 100!

04-18-2002, 08:37 AM
SCOTT: You didn't mention the 100's of young people that you annually introduce into our great sport. Good job, thanks,.........randyg

Doctor_D
04-18-2002, 08:43 AM
Good morning:

Well said young lady, Well said!

As a woman (as well as a die hard feminist), where physical strength is not the determining factor, I firmly believe that women can and will compete equally with the men. Look at the career achievements of Jean Balukas, nothing short of outstanding in my book. Additionally; if the women playing pools set thier minds and their sights on the level of competition provided by the men, we would indeed give all of them a run for the money. Cuechick, your diamond analogy was excellent. How many IF / Internally Flawless or F / Flawless diamonds exist in the world?

I love to stir the pot for interesting discussion and debate /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

Dr. D.

04-18-2002, 08:47 AM
emma pleeze make sure to come back and say "thanks" to all these good posters giving u all this good info

Barbara
04-18-2002, 10:15 AM
I've said this before as to why I think there is such a disparity between the genders. I think it comes down to an eye-hand-body coordination that males are introduced to earlier in life than females are. At least in my generation that was true.

Now the females are participating in what used to be male-dominated sports (such as Little League baseball) and I think that by introducing them to practice eye-hand-body coordination earlier in their lives, they are learning to focus earlier and as such they are building more expertise in that area.

I do believe, though, that there is a distinct physical difference as to how men play as opposed to how women play. Particularly so when you compare an Efren Reyes to an Allison Fisher.

Barbara~~~hopes she used all the right words...

Vicki
04-18-2002, 11:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: cuechick:</font><hr> As I said the numbers are the key seperating factor. If you had to find just 10 high quality diamonds, you'd have a lot better luck from a bag of 1000 than a bag of 100! <hr></blockquote>

Cuechick is one smart chickadee. If you consider the number of women playing pool vs. the number of men, now remove the women who are serious about looking good while their boyfriend watches them play, you are left with a very small female talent pool. When I started playing 14 years ago it was a joke. No one really thought I would stick to it or that I really wanted to get good at pool. No one taught me as if I was serious about getting good either. I am sure this is true for most girls. In all of history there have only been Jean, Karen, &amp; Allison who, as far as I am concerned, are really professional caliber players. I say that because of Karen &amp; Allison's consistancy (and Jean needs no qualification). More and more women are playing, and of those playing, more of them are really serious about it. It will be interesting to watch over the next 5 - 10 - 20 years to see how womens professional pool evolves.

Kato
04-18-2002, 11:08 AM
Barbara, girls were playing in my little league 20 years ago and one particular girl on my team between the ages of 10 to 14 was one of the better players in the league (cannon for an arm). Since girls, young girls are physically more mature at that age it may actually give them an advantage. Just my guess and my .02

Kato

JimS
04-18-2002, 11:32 AM
I, like most other posters in this thread, don't know of any physical differences that would account for the gender seperation. Men, at the top levels of the game, have historically been more highly skilled than women at this sport, with a few noteable exceptions, and I believe that generally speaking men tend play at a higher skill level than women but that appears to me to be, as has been said, societal and probably not physical.

Most pool has historically been played in pool halls and young girls, in my experience growing up in the 50's or 60's, simply didn't go into pool halls, while men were often very anxious to get old enough to be initiated into the pool hall scene. A rite of passage almost (?).

With most of the old "pool halls" being gone and a new breed of pool rooms/family entertainment centers becomeing normal I suppose that there will be greater opportunity for females to get involved with pool at a younger age and I look for them to become more evenly matched with the men as the years progress. Certainly Karen Corr and Allison Fisher are good examples of this trend as are several of the other female pros.

You will benefit by reading "Hustlers, Beats and Others" by Ned Polsky. This book contains an excellent sociological picture of how pool has evolved (or devolved) and will help you understand why women did not participate in pool in either the numbers or with the frequency of play as men.

Locally women do play in the mens league but also have a seperate league. They have their own seperate league, according to some with whom I've spoken, because they haven't played long enough to sucessfully compete with the men, don't go to the bars to play as often as the men and consequently have not acquired pool skills as quickly as some of the men, and they like being able to play without the presence of men who tend to either hit on them or offer TONS (their emphasis, not mine) of unsolicited advice, all done, of course, under the guise of "I just want to help the poor helpless creature."

cuechick
04-18-2002, 12:04 PM
I have to disagree, I don't think that men as a gender are more cordinated than women. I think that is an innate ablity that shifts from one person to another regardless of gender. Pool is a victum of culture, women did not go to pool halls in my mom's day or even when I was a teen ager. I spoke to Jean B. at length about this and she told me even though she grew up in a family run pool hall, she always felt funny walking through the door.
I think the differences Btwn say Allison and Efren have more to do with tecnique than gender. After Nick Varner has one of the best breaks in pool, yet I bet there is more than one woman on the tour that could beat him arm wrestling!!!
Also just more info for Emma, it took 2 years before Jean Balukas was aloud entry into the US OPEN...many men have been threaten by women in this sport, could it be , just maybe because when it comes down to it they really don't have an obvious advantage?

Fred Agnir
04-18-2002, 12:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Emma:</font><hr> I am doing research for my undergratuate thesis about women playing pool. I am trying to figure out why women and men compete seperatly. In Washington,PA pool league women and men are on the same teams, why is this not always the case? Do men have an advantage like they do in Physical sports (i.e. Basketball)? If so what and if not why do they compete seperatly? <hr></blockquote>

I've got my personal opinions (as the beater of the physical drum), but nobody likes to read a non-PC opinion, and I'd rather not be branded a sexist again. However I will say that anyone who says "I can't think of any physical reason why..." may be stuck on the "sheer strength" red herring.

Look at these two wonderful replies:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Barbara:</font><hr>I do believe, though, that there is a distinct physical difference as to how men play as opposed to how women play. Particularly so when you compare an Efren Reyes to an Allison Fisher. <hr></blockquote>

and

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Vicki:</font><hr>In all of history there have only been Jean, Karen, &amp; Allison who, as far as I am concerned, are really professional caliber players. I say that because of Karen &amp; Allison's consistancy (and Jean needs no qualification). More and more women are playing, and of those playing, more of them are really serious about it. It will be interesting to watch over the next 5 - 10 - 20 years to see how womens professional pool evolves. <hr></blockquote>

The conclusion that I get from these two quotes is that regardless of anyone's wrong opinion (including my own) on why there is a disparity in current relative skill levels, the facts are that there is a physical difference in how the sexes play pool, that women's overall skill is getting better, and there are now distinct professional caliber women players that other young women can copy/aspire/emulate. And yes indeed it will be very interesting to see how women's pool evolves over the next years.

Fred &lt;~~~ isn't surprised that women play physically different than men.

Rod
04-18-2002, 12:56 PM
Anon, that would be my concern. I've seen these posts many times where someone is doing research and never reply with thanks or anything. This type of question starts a huge controversy, more than not. I think sometimes it is done on purpose or to stir the pot. I choose not to be involved, untill I see just ONE of them come back with a follow up. If she is doing this research for a purpose, it will be based on opinions only.
Emma are you going to come back with a follow up, for your thesis?

SPetty
04-18-2002, 01:42 PM
I've been looking for and finally found this text that I saved from a CCB post awhile back because I liked it so much. I don't often save CCB things, so I apologize to whoever wrote it for not keeping the author info.

I do believe that it was a "regular" CCB poster, so if you recognize these words as your own, please step forward and claim them:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: an insightful poster:</font><hr>"Pool is a finesse sport it does not require great physical strength or endurance. Fat or skinny, old or young, marathon runner or two pack a day smoker, male or female, it doesn't matter. As long as your eyes are good and your nerves are steady the only thing that counts is whether or not the player has the talent, the knowledge, the courage, the commitment, and the requisite level of aggression at the table. Having a penis is not a prerequiste for excellence in the cue sports. As for balls, the only ones that count are the ones on the table in play."
<hr></blockquote>

Fred Agnir
04-18-2002, 03:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> I've been looking for and finally found this text that I saved from a CCB post awhile back because I liked it so much. I don't often save CCB things, so I apologize to whoever wrote it for not keeping the author info.

I do believe that it was a "regular" CCB poster, so if you recognize these words as your own, please step forward and claim them: <hr></blockquote>

snip "pool is a finesse sport" angle.

I don't mean to rain on your feelings towards the quote, but it's that type of feel-good argument that muddies up the waters, IMO. Is pool a finesse sport? Well, it requires finesse at times, but at other times it requires power strokes. Is pool a mental sport? Well it certainly requires more mental prowess than a multitude of sports, but it still requires an exceptional amount of physical ability. It requires both soft and hard, precision and power, mental and physical. Let's all not forget the hard, physical, power stuff.

Fred &lt;~~~ shouldn't reply to these.

Barbara
04-18-2002, 06:11 PM
Cuechick, (because I know who you really are /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif)

I'm not saying that men are superior in their coordination, I meant to say that men have been exposed to it at an earlier age than most women, and back in my time, this was true. And having been exposed earlier, the men were able to develop that coordination at an earlier rate and succeeded farther than most women.

We (I) had softball, starting when you were in at least 6th grade. There was Little League for boys at an earlier age. Now there is soccer for grade school kids of both sexes! Little girls are playing baseball now, too.

I can see the gender gap closing with the newer generations getting an equal opportunity to try sports from both sides of the sexes.

Barbara

Barbara
04-18-2002, 06:25 PM
Yeah, but Kato, in my time, girls weren't playing Little League.

One of these days I'll email you about my experiences of being a "Jockette" during my teen years when it was so much against the norm.

Barbara~~~damn them all, I did it anyway!!!

Barbara
04-18-2002, 06:36 PM
Why Fred! I'm flattered that you quoted me! And I don't care about what PC toes I'm stepping on. I do believe that men are superior to women these days in pool. And I believe it has to do with the muscular strength/quickness that men have in relation to women. And eye-hand-body coordination from having been exposed to it earlier in age and in more pointed sports that use them than women. And I also think that the man's psyche has more to do with having a "killer instinct" than a woman's psyche would.

Traditions are eroding, but in not so recent times, women were the nesters and the men were the hunters.

Just proves that I was born 20 years too early.

Barbara~~~but I still had fun!

04-18-2002, 09:36 PM
Dan, that was only the opening premise! my real point was that, on average, one of the biggest disadvantages women face is that culturally, and historically, we were not encouraged to devoelop mathematical, spatial, or specific eye-hand coordination skills. I have to admit I am of an older generation of women, and this is not as true today. I did buck some of those trends- I loved math and physics, worked construction, and have spent more of my adult life hanging out with the guys in the pool hall than with whatever it is women are supposed to do, (much to the dtriment of my social life) and don't see many women my age doing so. But there are more young women today feeling more comfortable in that setting. It is not neccessarily that men " do geometry stuff better, or take to it more readily"- I think women sometimes do not as easily become obsessed with the sport as it has not been a socially acceptable outlet for them. We still come back to the "seedy" image, as well as the cultural ideal that women are supposed to have more noble values and goals in life. Even some of the most promising young women I see in local level competitive play do not have the dedication, or have an image that that dedication is somehow not quite right, to be able to go into a hall to prctice a few games and realize later that they have been playing for 6-8 hours straight with no other thought in the world!!!! ( A few weeks ago I went to a local hall, just to practice a few drills. Ran into a player I knew, played a few games, and he said he was heading home. what I thought was a few minutes later, he came and and made a comment about what a hellacious table time bill I would have, only then did I realize I had been there for 6 hours.....he had gone home, had dinner, and come back to see if there was any action!)I did not drop out of school to go on the road, but I jokingly tell people the only reason I work is to support my pool habit....the gap is closing i terms of numbers of women playing, but I think there may always be a difference in how we play and view the game. enough rambling- Patti Ireland

Scott Lee
04-19-2002, 02:23 AM
Thanks Randy...I think the ACUI competition is vital to the growth of the sport through college participation, and I try to be as involved in that aspect as possible, along with bringing in as many new players as possible every year!

Scott

SPetty
04-19-2002, 08:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Is pool a finesse sport? Well, it requires finesse at times, but at other times it requires power strokes. Is pool a mental sport? Well it certainly requires more mental prowess than a multitude of sports, but it still requires an exceptional amount of physical ability. It requires both soft and hard, precision and power, mental and physical. Let's all not forget the hard, physical, power stuff. <hr></blockquote>

Hi Fred,

But are you insinuating that "power" = "strength"? Yes, men are often physically stronger than women. Does this translate into greater power on the pool table?

I'm not intending to be argumentative, but asking a sincere question. Because, there's been quite a few posts about the powerful break shot, and that the power of a shot comes from the speed of the cue. Does it take greater strength to generate greater speed and therefore greater power?

SPetty~~happy that you reply to these...

Doctor_D
04-19-2002, 09:07 AM
Good morning:

Power and Stength are not always relative. I am not a strong woman physically however, in the corporate world, I have a significant amount of power and control over the life and lives of my clients and their personnel. Power, properly and respectfully applied, can enhance all we do.

Dr. D.

Fred Agnir
04-19-2002, 10:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> But are you insinuating that "power" = "strength"? Yes, men are often physically stronger than women. Does this translate into greater power on the pool table? <hr></blockquote>

Yes, I do think there is a certain amount of strength involved in "power shots." But, as I've said before, I'm not talking about brute strength or sheer strength. It's the ability to use the strength in a controlled and consistent manner. I think that idea is overlooked way too much.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: spetty:</font><hr>I'm not intending to be argumentative, but asking a sincere question. Because, there's been quite a few posts about the powerful break shot, and that the power of a shot comes from the speed of the cue. Does it take greater strength to generate greater speed and therefore greater power? <hr></blockquote>

This tends to be a loaded question (not necessarily by you). It doesn't take greater strength, but if two people can control the cue identically, then the one with the greater strength (in their hands, wrist, back, wherever) has the advantage on power shots and break shots. Even if we forget about the break shots, there's still the power shots. It's not a simple equation, but one has to look at all the inherent tools available *and* how they use those tools. Having the tools (like strength, coordination, spacial reckoning) to begin with *is* advantageous.

Here's another thing, as far as physical advantage goes. If you and I are exactly level on skill, but I have more physical endurance because of my conditioning and muscle mass (I'm fantasizing, so bear with me), then who has the advantage in a longer set?

Fred &lt;~~~ isn't talking about brute strength.

Rod
04-19-2002, 12:38 PM
My hat is off to both of you. SPetty I thought it was a great question, and an equally good reply by Fred.

For the record Fred, I really agree with your reply. The only part I might question is your "muscle mass" theory verses my "stronger mind" theory in a long set.

04-20-2002, 09:29 AM
Fred, I would have to differ with your and Barbara's opinions as to the physical differences between the genders as being responsible for the skill difference. Let's take Allison Fisher for example. At about 5'3" and maybe 120 lbs. max I think we could all agree Allison does not compare with most males in terms of physical strength. No, she may not have a powerful break, but IMO that's mainly a result of her stationary elbow and upper arm throughout the stroke - which does not drop or come forward even on a power shot. The only physical difference between Allison and Efren (the two players given for an example by Barbara) is in technique.

Fact is even with her physique Allison has all the power in her stroke she will ever need for any shot that comes up in a game of 9-ball - be it power draw, power follow, a jump shot or whatever - and I've seen it proven. I claim she can draw the rock from a distance right up there with any of the male pros. No, maybe not like Mike Massey, but then how many male pros can do that?

There's no doubt that physically Allison certainly falls within the range of average female physical specs, so how would you explain this? Are you saying that Allison constitutes a rare exception? - Chris in NC

Tom_In_Cincy
04-20-2002, 09:42 AM
Rare Exception? well she has won Player of the Year 5 times, has won more money on the tour than any other woman. She has won more titles than anyone on the tour.

Exception? Rare? Indeed.. almost un-human..

Its like Allison is giving up home planet advantage everytime she plays.

Then again, she is in good company with Efern, Earl, Cory and all the other top players, that seem to play on a level that is out of this world.

Physical, mental, environments of playing (tournaments and gambling) men and women do have different background of how they became players.

I just think its because its a male dominated game, and the women just need time to catch up.. 20 years ago, the top 100 players only would include 3 or 4 women, NOW, I would venture a guess of maybe 10 or 12..

04-20-2002, 01:45 PM
Tom, I'm afraid I can't agree with your estimation of 10 or 12 women players among the top 100 players in the world. IMO maybe 2 and I think we all know who they are. I'd sure like to know who are the other 8 or 10 on your list? - Chris in NC

Tom_In_Cincy
04-20-2002, 01:56 PM
1. Allison
2. Karen
3. Jeanette
4. Gerda
5. Vivian
6. Loree
7. Ewa
8. maybe Ms. Chen.. but now I am streching it..

Ok, you got me.. after that, none would be in the top 100 of the world.

Of course we would have to eliminate the Philipines.. al together..

Vagabond
04-20-2002, 02:14 PM
Hello Mates,
The seperation of sexes is purely a continuation of social customs and traditions.Pool is no different than the other sports when it came to the issue of holding the tournaments.When women started competing in the sports,they were seperated from men because of socio-cultural issues and primarily not because of monetary or physical skill difference issues.From early 1980s fashion industry has been forcing changes in socio-cultural matters by introducing unisex cloths and hair cuts.If these changes force their way, with high speed,into other aspects of our life,then u may anticipate single category of sporting events especially in pool.Let me warn u that majority of women will not like the single category.By the way ,what could be the reasons to have seperate rest rooms in public places other than socio-cultural issues( not monetary and not difference in skill level).Cheers
Vagabond

Troy
04-20-2002, 04:06 PM
Sorry, but I'm not even sure that Allison or Karen would qualify in the TOP 100 of the WORLD.

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> 1. Allison
2. Karen
3. Jeanette
4. Gerda
5. Vivian
6. Loree
7. Ewa
8. maybe Ms. Chen.. but now I am streching it..

Ok, you got me.. after that, none would be in the top 100 of the world.

Of course we would have to eliminate the Philipines.. al together..
<hr></blockquote>

Fred Agnir
04-21-2002, 06:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Chris in NC:</font><hr> Fred, I would have to differ with your and Barbara's opinions as to the physical differences between the genders as being responsible for the skill difference. Let's take Allison Fisher for example. At about 5'3" and maybe 120 lbs. max I think we could all agree Allison does not compare with most males in terms of physical strength. <hr></blockquote>

I think you need to read my post again and what Barbara is saying, and not read what you *think* I'm saying .

I'll put it as simply and as concisely as I can. There is a physical difference in the women and the men. They shouldn't attempt to learn to play this game the same way. Certain females now possess a game that would be considered "professional caliber." They should be younger female player's models, not the men. Why? Because physically, males and females are different, and the game is has an important physical element.


Fred &lt;~~~ didn't say anything about strength, again.

MikeM
04-22-2002, 09:33 AM
You should include Helena Thornfeldt in there somewhere.

MM

TomBrooklyn
04-22-2002, 09:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> emma pleeze make sure to come back and say "thanks" to all these good posters giving u all this good info<hr></blockquote>Looks like another case of someone dropping in to ask a question and not coming back. This isn't the first time.

Oh well, it was an interesting topic anyway.

04-22-2002, 10:19 AM
OK, Emma. I'll tell you what I believe. Everyone has their own theories about spacial perception and physical abilities and so-on, but after being in this game for over 20 years and competing as a professional player, I have come to certian conclusions reagarding the main differeeence between men and women and why we have separate divisions.

It has to do with WHY we play pool.

While we pool players work just as hard at our craft as a brain surgeon or as a Wall Street Broker, the bottom line is that pool players are devoting their waking lives to putting little balls in little holes. When you look at the big picture, it is hardly what I would call a lifetime of contributions to society.

I can break just as hard as a man. I can spin a ball just as accurately as a man. I can finesse a ball just as good as a man. I can cut a ball just as good as a man. However what I don't do just as good as a man, is feel comfortable in devoting my entire life to putting little balls in little holes.

Do you know the expression that goes that men are just little boys at heart? Well, from what I can determine of our top male pool players...they are all OK with the selfishness of what it takes to be the best at pool. I do not believe that women are OK with that selfishness. At some point they come to determine that they want more out of their lives.

Yes, even for Allison, Jeanette and Karen; life is not all about pool, as it may be for Efren, Earl or Mika.

If Allison, Karen, and the rest of us women pool players really want to...and the big word here is WANT...we can become selfish enough to turn off the rest of the world around us, ignore our friends and families and focus on the big "ME."

Sorry guys, but men are much better at that than women.

When women become as good as men in pool, we will then be able to say that women have achieved equality in selfishness.

Fran

cheesemouse
04-22-2002, 10:41 AM
Fran,
I gotta give you credit, Fran, you're not afraid to stick it out there{no pun intended /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif )

cuechick
04-22-2002, 10:51 AM
I'd add Jean to that list, even though she no longer plays seriously, if she wanted to she could. Also I think Helena( I'd place her ahead of Ewa or Loree) is no shrub and Monica is coming up fast!!!!

jjinfla
04-22-2002, 12:32 PM
I do believe Jeanette Lee admits that at first it was all pool. Sixteen hours a day. If a person spends that much time on pool, there can't be much left for anyone else. Of course now that she is on top it doesn't take as much practice to keep her sharp. But then now she must be putting in a lot of time keeping her sponsors happy and making appearances. She is lucky in that her husband is in the same line of work and understands what it takes to succeed. Jake

04-22-2002, 01:33 PM
Hi Fran,

First off, I want to say that you seem like a nice person so I don't want this to sound like I'm attacking you BUT though some of your observations hold water, I have a different(male) perspective.

I'm not a Pro pool player(yet) but I do know what it takes to compete. It's funny that you mentioned Wall Street brokers, that is what I do. I can tell you that the Stock Market is every bit as competitive a game as any. If you don't have the aggression, composure and smarts to know when to back off, your getting your butt kicked. I also takes discipline to stay the course,repeat what works and try to improve were you can. Sounds familiar, right?
I also could of went to Hofstra U to play Baseball, but choose to play Div 1 football at Rutgers U. Anyway, I don't want this to sound like my life story. The point I'm making is that I also know about high level competition and feel like I was able to have a little balance, while doing the things that take alot of life's precious moments I think the word is not so much SELFISHNESS but DEDICATION.

To perform at a highly competitive level, it takes tremendous dedication,as well as making certain choices in life. If one is involved in something that takes up most of your free time, you have to choose. I think it is possible to be a competitive Pro pool player and have a family, for example. I don't think it's possible to be a competive Pro pool player, and have a good family life, and play scratch Golf. Golf would be too time consuming and for me, it would drop off the priority list. I think there are enough hours in a day to have more than just pool. I alos feel that the male Pro's that choose to have nothing but pool in their waking hours, do so at their own choice, but I don't think it's the secret to their success.

My apoligies to everyone for rambling.

Eric &gt;55hrs at work,3 hrs/day pool,daughter every other wkend &amp; coaching her softball team:contemplating suicide

04-22-2002, 02:30 PM
Believe it or not, Eric, I do agree with you. But here's where the selfishness part I was referring to comes in. It's really all about pool and really shouldn't be compared to other professions. When a person makes an informed choice to be dedicated to doing something, one of the questions they have to ask themselves is "Why?"

Now, you're dedicated to your job I assume. Would you be if there was very little money to be made to support your family, or if you came to the conclusion that by doing what you do, you wouldn't be contributing anything to anyone else other than to yourself personally?

That's what I'm referring to.

Fran

04-22-2002, 02:44 PM
Fran,

I didn't catch on til you explained it. Put that way, prfessional pool is a dead-end and that is not only selfish, but a little foolish too. I agree with you that dedication is great, but also for the right reasons. If I don't pay my child support, I guess I won't be playing pool(or anything else) either.

Eric &gt;dedicated to CCB

P.S.- Congrats on the T.P. point

Barbara
04-22-2002, 04:21 PM
Fran,

I couldn't agree with you more. I would also like to throw in another trait more prevalent in the male gender than the female gender: aggression. Men are encouraged to be aggressive. Now that the generations are changing, women are being encouraged to be aggressive and taught aggression in sports and everyday life.

Barbara

Cuemage
04-22-2002, 06:25 PM
Hi Fran,
We've never met but I would like to say I agree partially with what you are saying. One of the reasons I chose to take lessons from a top female (Allison) rather than a male is because the top males are so full of ego. I felt I would get more genuine concern with what I'm trying to learn. You certainly wouldn't get this kind of attention from someone who is selfish. There are many top males I haven't met so I could be way off base, but being a male, this was my gut feeling. I also agree females are generally more concerned about others than are males. I believe males are more tied up with being the best than are females. If you observe female matches, it doesn't kill females' egos to lose. Whereas, if you watch most male matches, machoism and egotism is prevalent...and by the way...I am a male.

Tha Cuemage

04-22-2002, 08:20 PM
Fran, I'd have to agree with your post. The reason why someone like Allison (clearly an exception) is so good is that she (unlike most young females) was so driven and disciplined (in snooker then pool) the first nearly 30 years of her life. She's slacked off the past 3-4 years - as you say a choice by her that there was more to enjoy in life than just pool. There's no question in my mind that if Allison had kept up that same discipline and drive and tested herself regularly against the very best - that by now she would have by been able to compete against most of the top male pros. It's hard for me to understand why with her rare talent she did not choose to take that path. She potentially would have had a chance to go down in history as one of the only female athletes that competed successfully with her male pro counterparts. I guess that opinion is the selfish male in me that you refer to - which my wife reminds me of all to often (LOL).

Karen Corr is another example. The discipline she has shown to do everything she can to improve her game the past 3-4 years has really paid off. There's certainly no question that if any young women out there wish to compete against Karen and Allison, they're going to have to make these sacrifices as well. For most men, we wouldn't see it as a sacrifice but as a passion - even if as you say there is no payoff at the finish.

Loree Jon and Ewa are two more obvious examples of what you're talking about. Both very gifted at a young age (particularly LJ) that certainly could have gone on to keep improving their pool games, but instead chose to have families. They're both strong competitors even though they practice very little anymore - which is why they just can't compete with those top players. As you say, if the prize money situation was different as it is in other sports, perhaps their decision would have been harder for them to make. - Chris in NC

04-23-2002, 11:04 AM
You know, Chris, I think there's a fine line between passion and obsession. Passion is not necessarily selfish. Obsession is. Drug addicts and alcoholics are examples of obsessed people. Their need for their fix is more important to them than the harm they are doing to their loved ones.

Once you cross that line where your need for your fix becomes detrimental to others, then you are living selfishly.

If you can play top level pool and not hurt anyone else in your pursuit (I guess it possible if you're a hermit), then I wouldn't consider that person being selfish, but there's still the issue to consider of not making any contributions to humankind. Surely we can't count putting balls in holes as a contribution to mankind, can we?

But I've yet to see a top level male player (even females at times) who have not inflicted some kind of grief, sorrow, pain or hurt on a loved one in pursuit of their own personal pleasure (pool). And the worst of it is, they're not even bringing home the bacon...at least not enough to compensate.

Fran

04-23-2002, 12:57 PM
well i couldn't leave this post unattended, specially being a struggling female in this big pool industry.....

i have spent many hours thinking about this and i can not fathom the reason why women will never be able to play as well as the men.........i have done research on this also, medically speaking, the testosterone levels in men allow them to have that killer competitive edge.....now if we look at the top women competitor, karen corr, shes not all that "fragile." i think that men will always have the edge over women mainly because they start so young, and do not have to avoid the pressures that society applies about them playing the sport. until pool halls lose that image of the smokey shady atomosphere, little girls will never stroll into a pool hall at the age of 12 and say hey i want to learn this sport. it took me 18 years of my natural life before i even walked through the doors of a pool hall, and since then i have never left, except to sit on my computer to read the posts on the CCB and occasionaly respond with the effervesent wit you have all come to love,...(sarcasm)... but i know that if i started when i was 12 i would be a world beater now, but until then ill just settle for being an "promising upcoming player with great potential...." thanks for listening to me ramble, i guess thats all....

for the record, i am a female and i don't think that there will ever be a woman to beat the best man in the world and as unfair as that is.......it is the truth, but we do get paid more....hehe

Rod
04-23-2002, 01:32 PM
What you say may all be true, and that's fine with me. Not that you needed my approval, or anyone else for that matter.
This topic has been worn out before, but new ideas or opinions, I should say come along each time. What I'd like to know, are you the Emma that asked the original question?

05-09-2002, 10:42 AM
I'm writing a paper on the way women who play pool are treated and viewed as compared to 10 years ago and the gender issues they deal with. If you have any info on this topic please let me know. Lilspeedy@juno.com

Kato
05-09-2002, 10:50 AM
Hey Anonymous Female, you wouldn't happen to be my old buddy from up in the Midwest would you? If it's you, check my profile and give me an e-mail.

R.J.

05-09-2002, 01:04 PM
Sorry, I caught up with this thread a little late. The only sport in the Olympics where both men and women compete on the same field is the Equestrian division. This past summer games marked the first time in history that the United States Equestrian Team fielded an all female team, which I believe brought home a Bronze medal ( please forgive me if this info is not as accurate as I would like, I don't follow equestrian news as closely now that I am no longer a part of it). The chef de equippe ( pronounced 'chef duh key') or coach, was male. Now, regarding power, I don't know how many of you have ever ridden or handled a horse, but trust me, Arnold Shwartzeneger isn't getting even a pony going somewhere he doesn't want to by brute strength.
But back to pool. I have to applaud and agree with Fran. Even in today's so-called "enlightened" age, where men change diapers and women fix cars, women still bear a heavier burden for providing comfort and emotional support than men. I can't think of the last time a man I was playing pool with told me he couldn't play another set with me because he had to go home and cook dinner for his family. Come to think of it, I can't think of the first time I heard a man say that. My own boyfriend, who hasn't worked in over a year, has never cooked dinner for me. In fact, had to be threatened with the very direst of consequences just to be persuaded to attend a weekly tournament with me ONCE. If you are looking for reasons why men play better than women guys, look as far as yourselves.
If you had to go through all of the bullshit we have to go through to play this game, you'd never pick up a cue again. I am, of course, not referring to the fine gentlemen we have the pleasure of speaking with on this board, but rather the dopes we deal with in the bars, the pool halls, the tournaments. The ones who take great pleasure in making sure we know they don't want us there competing with them, especially if it looks like we might actually beat them. The ones who get ugly and threatening when we capitalize on their mistakes. The ones who leer at us and make sure we know that they think we're nothing more than a piece of meat, nice to look at, but it doesn't belong here. If you had to deal with the condescension and aggression that we do, and if you were physically unable to defend yourself against it, you'd quit. So BIG KUDOS to all the women who rise above the bullshit in this graceful and lovely game we love, and double kudos to the few gracious gentlemen out there who support us in our passion.
Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong! ( Big wink)

05-09-2002, 01:58 PM
"dopes we deal with in the bars, the pool halls, the tournaments. The ones who take great pleasure in making sure we know they don't want us there competing with them, especially if it looks like we might actually beat them. The ones who get ugly and threatening when we capitalize on their mistakes. The ones who leer at us and make sure we know that they think we're nothing more than a piece of meat, nice to look at, but it doesn't belong here."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am a male so I possibly don't see EVERYTHING thrown out to lady players, but down where I shoot pool(over No. texas) it seems much the opposite than what you implied above. Men I know would relish as many women to be in the pool hall playing pool, and the better player the better my friends and I like them. Like I said in the beginning, I just don't see the ugliness you(and other women have implied in other posts) say happen seemingly regularly. Maybe it is a northern thing, 'cause we southerners love our lady pool players, especially the ones with true talent...sid~~~cooked more for his wife when he had one than she did for Sid

05-09-2002, 04:17 PM
Post deleted by ccboard_admin

05-10-2002, 12:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Lorri:</font><hr> Sorry, I caught up with this thread a little late. My own boyfriend, who hasn't worked in over a year, has never cooked dinner for me. In fact, had to be threatened with the very direst of consequences just ... to attend a weekly tournament with me ONCE. If you had to go through all of the bullshit we have to go through to play this game, you'd never pick up a cue again ... the dopes we deal with in the bars, the pool halls, the tournaments. The ones who take great pleasure in making sure we know they ... get ugly and threatening when we capitalize on their mistakes. The ones who leer at us and ... think we're nothing more than a piece of meat. If you had to deal with the condescension and aggression that we do ... you'd quit ... the lovely game we love( Big wink) <hr></blockquote>

Let me attempt to explain the situation to you and maybe you'll possibly comprehend the situation for yourself ...

Dump your mooching boyfriend, move out of the trailer park, and stop blaming all males because you can't make a ball imo of course.BS

05-10-2002, 12:59 AM
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Anonymous:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;

deleted

&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

typical trailer park mentality

No one to play with but himself...but then again, he probably wouldn't have it any other way /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

05-10-2002, 06:44 AM
well i guess what fran is trying to say is that men generally play better pool than women because we're crazy. crazy enough to spend and devote our lives to the game of pool. for some players, pool is not a game, it's a career. they spend their lives gambling and trying to make a living out of playing pool. how many women do you know spend 10 hours a day playing pool ? probably none. but some male players spend countless hours gambling at a pool game.

Kato
05-10-2002, 06:53 AM
Lorri, I just erased a post because I don't know your situation. I realized that I jumped to a very bad conclusion and ripped your boyfriend without knowing his situation. If he is trying and is financial soluble then he should probably cook for you once and a while to show his appreciation for you unless he can't (did I mention I'm quite a cook?). If he is a certified bum you should say "bye, bye" and cruise on down the highway. You've just heard my opinion and that's all it is.

Kato~~~wants all women to be pool players except my Mom and has just explained the situation as I see it, not you

05-11-2002, 01:31 PM
Let me qualify a few things here.
I own a nice little Colonial in one of the nicer (though not necessarily 'better') sections of town. Not only can I make a ball, I am a former Tri State Tour champion. I've won more than my share of tournaments and money games, when I was actively competing. I was the ONLY woman to recieve an invitation to the inaugural Tri State Tour Invitational event throughout the four classes that competed that year.
I am college educated and have spent the vast majority of my life working two or more jobs at a time to support my family and interests. I do not appreciate cowardly scum who don't have the guts to sign their names insulting me because they do not agree with my opinions. My understanding was that this board exists for a lively EXCHANGE of opinions and ideas. If you can't understand and abide by that credo perhaps you should toddle on back to Kindercare.
By the way, my boyfreind is not a bum, but does need to wake up. Wish I lived in the South, as my experience with southern gentlemen has thus far been much better than with northern dolts.

05-11-2002, 01:35 PM
Kato,
Thanks. There's been more than one post I've deleted when I thought about the conclusions I was jumping to as well. I appreciate you're support. Lorri

05-11-2002, 11:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Lorri:</font><hr>
I am college educated and have spent the vast majority of my life working two or more jobs at a time to support my family and interests

and your beloved boyfriend whom you consider a hobby? /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif


My understanding was that this board exists for a lively EXCHANGE of opinions and ideas

and I gave my opinion - you didn't like it so I'm scum? /ccboard/images/icons/frown.gif

By the way, my boyfreind is not a bum, but does need to wake up.

You may be the one that needs to wake up Lorri.Your boyfriend hasn't worked for over a year,you own the nice little colonial,you work two jobs supporting all others...Think about it. /ccboard/images/icons/crazy.gif

Wish I lived in the South, as my experience with southern gentlemen has thus far been much better than with northern dolts.

That's all I was trying to imply (move from the trailer park),the crowd that you are associating with. <hr></blockquote>

I also sincerely commend you regarding your pool accomplishments.BS

05-12-2002, 07:12 AM
Personally, I think you r full of sh#t as far as your 'accomplishments/tour wins'. Listen Champ, why don't you give real dates and specifics to these 'wins' like who you beat, where and when these 'Tri State' wins came. I don't think you'll resond to this.

05-12-2002, 12:04 PM
HMMN, Let me respond in vernacular you can easily understand....

BITE ME $HITHE@D

05-12-2002, 12:13 PM
1st Anonymous,
There is a vast amount of difference between giving an opinion and insinuating that a poster is 'trailer park trash'. If you can't grasp the difference, please refer to my response to anonymous 2.

Sid_Vicious
05-12-2002, 04:07 PM
I usually don't jump in like this in a retaliatory feud but Lorri, I just gotta say...you surely do have a way with the vernacular....sid~~~enjoys spunk when it's called for ;-)

05-12-2002, 04:58 PM
Good answer. Exactly what I expected.

jjinfla
05-12-2002, 06:07 PM
Lorri, Before you condemn all men to not being able to cook you should check out all the restaurants. The chefs are predominantly men. And the modern day woman lets Mickey D and Burger King do her cooking. She is too busy making her way in the business world. As far as men resenting women playing pool I don't see that down here in Florida. But the fragile male ego does not like to be beaten by a woman. But one thing you must remember about men: ALL men are pigs. LOL Jake

05-13-2002, 02:20 PM
Thanks Jin, but I didn't say he COULDN"T cook, I said he DIDN"T cook. I'm also not real fond of sweeping statements like ALL MEN. I am NOT a man hater, in fact, I think most of you guys are really great. Most of my friends are men. Where in Fla. are you? I was in Jacksonville recently and met a lot of lovely people at University Billiards.

06-07-2002, 10:52 AM
maybe their boobs get in the way on some shots

06-07-2002, 12:09 PM

Jay M
06-07-2002, 12:16 PM
ok, let's debunk this one right now and head off into areas that may be a little less...ummm...offensive to the ladies.

Have you guys ever hit a hard shot poorly and slammed your hand into the side of your chest? I have, it hurts... Now think how much worse that may feel for a woman. Also, note that the cue is always sliding down the side of a woman's chest, not down the middle... so how can you call that a secondary bridge? Do they maybe use their armpit to assist in aiming?

That said, let's move on down the road into reality...

Jay M

06-07-2002, 12:55 PM

heater451
06-07-2002, 02:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jay M:</font><hr> . . .so how can you call that a secondary bridge? Do they maybe use their armpit to assist in aiming?
Jay M <hr></blockquote>
Alright, given the source of the originating post (Anonymous), and the **quality** of it, I think it was meant to instigate. . . .

However, I have to add my thoughts (after all, I don't mind talking about breasts):

I would think of it acting less as a 'bridge', and more like a 'rest' or 'stay'(simply, a guide), such as can be found on woodworking equipment (lathes and table saws, for example). Not to mention, the shooter would be able to notice any stroke deviation--and having to keep the cue aligned by three points (grip, breast, and bridge) would help limit any tendency to pivot the shaft with only two points (grip and bridge).

Ladies, am I making sense? (If you don't find the subject offensive.)

Rod
06-07-2002, 03:26 PM
I posted this sometime ago. The person named Emma, if that was in fact was her/his name, never replied to any post from anyone here. That just bugs me more than a little. With over 5800 views and 85 replies, I think that person shows a lack of respect for the ones that took the time to give her their opinion! I even posted a question to an anon, that I thought could have been her, but no reply.
Thats ok I know we all miss some messages as it gets lost in the shuffle sometimes or for lack of time.

This should be a new post I realize, but I'm not going to waist my time anymore with replies to some one that doesn't give a $hit. They should at least have the courtesy to say thank you to all that relied, or anything similar to that effect. Sorry I've been out in the sun working, at 110 degrees, must make me a little grumpy. I still won't back off on my feelings on that issue. It does happen at times with less than a hand full of regulars. That is they start the thread or ask a question and never reply. grump grump, ok I'll go jump in the pool. What say you all?
BTW no comment on breasts, the ladies know as an individual whether it's helps or is an interference.

~~~rod, not aware if this helps

Rod
06-07-2002, 03:39 PM
Quote Heater, Alright, given the source of the originating post (Anonymous), and the **quality** of it, I think it was meant to instigate. . . .

You've got that right Heater, the souce and instigate. Both is a main problem of mine, as in a post below. I didn't mention instigate though. This kind of topic is one that can cause problems more times that not.

06-07-2002, 03:51 PM
Well I condiser this an extremely important topic for discussion (sure...LOL), so I think I'll join the festivities.

I think it depends on the individual. I don't think about it at all when I shoot, so I know it's not a factor for me. My cue doesn't even come close. But then my cue is under my right eye which keeps it slightly away from my torso.

I know a few guys that definitely have beer belly issues. I imagine they have to compensate in some way. Wouldn't be surprised if some of them use a belly aiming system. Ha!

I guess the perfect pool-playing body would probably be a skeleton. Yeah, but then we'd probably would be discussing which bones would get in the way.

Fran ~~~ the hip bone's connected to the...

SPetty
06-07-2002, 04:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: heater451:</font><hr> Alright, given the source of the originating post (Anonymous), and the **quality** of it, I think it was meant to instigate. . . .

I would think of it acting less as a 'bridge', and more like a 'rest' or 'stay'(simply, a guide), such as can be found on woodworking equipment (lathes and table saws, for example). Not to mention, the shooter would be able to notice any stroke deviation--and having to keep the cue aligned by three points (grip, breast, and bridge) would help limit any tendency to pivot the shaft with only two points (grip and bridge).

Ladies, am I making sense? (If you don't find the subject offensive.)

<hr></blockquote>Oh gawd, I *hate* that I'm being drawn into this one...

Yes, the post was unmistakably meant to instigate, posted by an immature pre-puberty (because I can't spell pubescent) baby boy. (When I saw it, I knew no one would respond...)

Perhaps top flight female pool players don't use this stance, but I have seen many amateur female pool players whose stance and stroke includes stroking their cue between their breasts when they are down on their shot, which I believe is what has been referred to as a "secondary bridge". I have even seen a woman recommend the stance to other women. To continue to get the full picture, the women are generally large and very amply well endowed.

I have also seen the use described by heater451 here - as a kind of tool rest on the side.

I have also seen the women hit their breasts hard as described elsewhere. ouch.

Oh gawd, I *hate* that I've been drawn into this one...

Alfie
06-07-2002, 06:54 PM
Quote Fran Crimi: "I know a few guys that definitely have beer belly issues. I imagine they have to compensate in some way. Wouldn't be surprised if some of them use a belly aiming system. Ha!"

Hey, Fran. Have you ever known anyone whose forearm and wrist dropped straight down from the elbow, whose shoulder is directly over the cue, and who stroked straight to have a belly issue?

06-07-2002, 07:12 PM
Carl always refers to them as "The Boobas" ( as in Boo-Baa, like the sound a sheep makes) which I find rather amusing actually. Of course, he's usually got a goofy "I'm horny" grin on his face at the time, so that could have something to do with it.........
It's all about the nookie folks /ccboard/images/icons/tongue.gif
Oh Yeah, We're talking about POOL here..../ccboard/images/icons/blush.gif Yeah, I use them as a guide, but Fran keeps yelling at me for it!! /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

06-19-2002, 12:02 PM
***VERIFICATION PLEASE***

I just heard that a top 10 woman player was arrested in North Carolina on a sexual charge during one of the past tournaments. Can some one verify this? Is this the image that the billiard industry is trying get across to the young pool public? Name will be revealed later.