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anarchist
11-14-2003, 01:33 PM
Can someone please explain to me differences in cue joints? I've been looking into buying a custom cue and I'm not sure why some cues have "stainless steel", "wood to wood","piloted", "flat faced",.... Are some better than others? A real good local player here says that he wouldn't play with a steel jointed cue if someone paid him. Does it make that much of a difference? It seems to me that the higher priced cues ($400 and higher) all have the 3/8-10 flat faced joints.

Harold Acosta
11-14-2003, 06:16 PM
From the Viking Cues website...

Joint 1 Metal to Implex
Provides a firm hit

Joint 2 Metal to Metal
Gives a hard hit

Joint 3 Metal to Metal
Double-threaded to provide a very hard hit

Joint 4 Implex to Implex
Gives a soft hit and has 3/8 - 10 pin

Joint 5 Implex to Implex
Gives a soft hit

Joint 6 Wood to Wood
Provides a soft hit

Visit this site to see the pictures:

http://www.vikingcue.com/pages/cues/joints.htm

Cueless Joey
11-14-2003, 06:37 PM
I wouldn't want ss joint either.
It kills all the "feeling" of the cue in the handle area imo.

Rick the stick
11-14-2003, 08:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote anarchist:</font><hr> Can someone please explain to me differences in cue joints? I've been looking into buying a custom cue and I'm not sure why some cues have "stainless steel", "wood to wood","piloted", "flajointed cue if someone paid him. Does it make that much of a difference? It seems to me that the higher priced cues ($400 and higher) all have the 3/8-10 flat faced joints. <hr /></blockquote>


SURE HERES THE DEAL, DONT WORRY ABOUT THIS, THAT IS NOT WHERE IT IS AT. THE BEST JOINT IS NO JOINT, A ONE PIECE CUE. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ON YOUR CUE IS IN THIS ORDER, HARD TIP, TRIANGLE, SOFT FERRULE, FIBER, NICE AA WOOD, CANADIAN HARD ROCK MAPLE, WITH THE RIGHT TAPER, THEN LAST IS THE JOINT. GIVE ME THE ABOVE 3 AND YOU CAN STICK THE SHAFT ON A KMART BROOM AND I WILL RUN OUT ON YOU. I play with a plastic joint. Call me alice. Dont mess with Rick, mess with my wa, it aint pretty. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

JPB
11-14-2003, 08:43 PM
There's more to it than the joint material. You want a lightweight joint that is very stiff. And you want to transmit feel. The best IMO is a true wood joint, which very few cues have; that is where a thick wood screw is turned out of the shaft blank itself and screws into the butt. The schuler joint is very good. It is light but has a lot of wood to wood contact and is solid. But the hit depends on a combination of factors, the joint, shaft taper, joint diameter, and joint construction. The physics dictate a light joint for stroke and a stiff joint for hit. So find something light, stiff, and solid. Most cues will fail one or more of these tests.

Go read the websites for Kilby, Dieckman, and Schuler for yourself.

Fred Agnir
11-15-2003, 07:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote anarchist:</font><hr> Can someone please explain to me differences in cue joints? I've been looking into buying a custom cue and I'm not sure why some cues have "stainless steel", "wood to wood","piloted", "flat faced",.... <hr /></blockquote>

Stainless Steel or SS: normally means the collar on the butt joint is made of polished stainless steel.

Wood-to-wood: describes the contact from butt to shaft. It's a complete misnomer. The importance is that it provides intimate contact with wood, rather than with metal. That is, when saying "wood-to-wood," there might be plastic collars, but not metal collars.

Piloted: if one of the joint halves has some protrusion feature (male) that inserts into a matching female cavity as a lead or guide for the threaded pin in the other half, this is knows as a "pilot." In normal threaded joinery, the pilot takes the brunt of alignment rather than putting the burden of alignment on the threaded pin and insert. The most common piloted joint uses a brasses threaded insert in the shaft that stands slightly proud at the head.

Pictures of Joints (http://www.predatorcues.com/english/jointtypes.htm)

Flat-faced: opposite of piloted. You can have a flat-faced, wood-to-wood joint.
[ QUOTE ]
Are some better than others? A real good local player here says that he wouldn't play with a steel jointed cue if someone paid him.<hr /></blockquote>

Is one better than another? I've got my own opinions, but it might be best to say it's subjective. However, some cuemakers will execute one joint style better than another joint style. There are many other things in the cue that, IMO, will vastly define the cue's hit more than most joints ever will (see Rick the Stick's post).

A blind taste test (hiding the joint with masking tape) will easily prove how difficult it is to tell what the joint actually contributes. My guess is that the guy you're talking about has experience in only one or two SS cues and based an opinion on that only. He might want to try other cues. Like a Joss or a Schön.

If a cuemaker makes identical cues, except the joint and collars, then yes, each one will "hit" differently (sound/vibrate/feedback). That's a different question and thread all together.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me that the higher priced cues ($400 and higher) all have the 3/8-10 flat faced joints.<hr /></blockquote> This isn't true. All different joint styles are available from different cuemakers. There is no "most popular."

Fred &lt;~~~ opts for the interference pilot with maximum wood-to-wood contact

Fred Agnir
11-15-2003, 08:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JPB:</font><hr> The physics dictate a light joint for stroke and a stiff joint for hit.<hr /></blockquote>Can you expound on this? What physics suggests these statements?

Fred

JPB
11-15-2003, 10:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote JPB:</font><hr> The physics dictate a light joint for stroke and a stiff joint for hit.<hr /></blockquote>Can you expound on this? What physics suggests these statements?

Fred <hr /></blockquote>


If the cue is too forward weighted your stroke won't be as good. This is because you won't have the control over the cue you should. I suppose it can be described as a moment of inertia thing. A quick demonstration is to turn a cue around and stroke w/ it. Hold the thing by the shaft and see how much control you have over it. The same effect to a lesser degree happens with a forward weighted cue. And no matter how much people scream "personal preference" I really don't think this is an area where that's true. People may be used to one thing, but they would stroke better with a cue that wasn't forward weighted if they got used to that. A heavy joint contributes to the forward weighting. So to compensate, you will stroke better with a heavy cue if the cue is forward weighted and unbalanced. If you take 2 similar cues that have too much weight in the joint, I bet you would play better with the one that is 21 oz from having a big weight bolt putt in the butt. It may feel bad though, and you might think the cue is too heavy. Took me a long time to figure out why I tended to play better w/ heavier cues. The problem was the cues were designed wrong, but the heavy butt overcame some of the other problems. A properly balanced cue won't feel bad tho, and you will probably think it is lighter than it is.

Flexible cues cause problems. They will buckle and lose energy and play less consistently. Many are too flexible because of joint diameter and other factors, so the joint isn't necessarily the big issue. But you want it solid so the cue doesn't buckle around the joint when you hit a ball hard. Shaft taper, butt diameter and joint diameter matter.

I still can't make a ball, but at least I know the cue isn't the problem w/ my miserable game. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Fred Agnir
11-15-2003, 05:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JPB:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote JPB:</font><hr> The physics dictate a light joint for stroke and a stiff joint for hit.<hr /></blockquote>Can you expound on this? What physics suggests these statements?

Fred <hr /></blockquote>


If the cue is too forward weighted your stroke won't be as good. This is because you won't have the control over the cue you should. I suppose it can be described as a moment of inertia thing.
<hr /></blockquote> I mostly agree with your discussion on keeping the balance closer to the butt or toward the grip hand specifically because of the moment of intertia, but I think you've gone down a slippery slope.

Stiff joints and light joints do not in of themselves dictate the balance. Balance dictates balance. Wood density, shaft weight, and wood joinery methods of the other two joints in the butt can contribute more to the weight/balance than the joint. I think most people confuse the Viking method as being "the method." That is, Viking swaps joints and pretty much keep everything else the same. Therefore, an SS joint may indeed push the balance point farther forward than an equivalent cue with an implex collar. However, other cuemakers can and do take into account the specific joint style and wood densities to calculate where the balance point would be, and adjust from there using any number of methods. Southwest I believe change the length and material of the A joint threaded rod to affect the balance point.

Also, I don't know what "stiff joint" means as you indicate as an opposite to "light joint." Those aren't opposites. Did you mean light joint vs. heavy joint? Because in my experience,... I don't have a clue what a stiff joint is as opposed to anything else. Are you saying there's some kind of compression happening at the joint that's not similar to the compression of the wood itself at the joint? Or are you talking about the sound it makes?

Here's a test. Take a metal washer and place it in the joint (provided the pin is long enough). Shoot away. Then, replace the metal washer with a rubber washer. Shoot away. Tell me if you find any difference whatsoever.

Tony Matthews on joint effect (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;oe=UTF-8&amp;selm=3A83D3D2.42913E2A%40sympatico.ca)

In case others simply don't realize this, there are any number of cuemakers who can make a soft hitting, rearward balanced cue, but still use a piloted SS joint. No lie.

Fred