View Full Version : Tournament Director - Update

Mr Ingrate
11-20-2003, 06:41 PM
For those of you who may be interested, updated documentation for the Pool Tournament Director is available at Dave's Pool Tools (http://www.davespooltools.com). You can also view it directly without going to the site using this link. (http://www.members.shaw.ca/dsyrja/davespooltools/tptd_doc.pdf)

Progress is exceeding my expectations and I should be able to Beta the product in January.

As always, comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated. Please, let me know what you think.

Thanks in Advance!

Mr Ingrate
01-12-2004, 07:08 PM
The pool tournament director programming is completed as well as the documentation and in is alpha (in-house) tesst mode. If you are interested you can view the documentation by going to my web site (http://www.davespooltools.com) and select the Pool Tournament Director or by clicking here. (http://members.shaw.ca/pooltools3/tptd_doc.pdf)

Comments are appreciated.

01-12-2004, 07:36 PM
I was just curious -- most seeded tournament charts like yours spread the seeds out so the top seeded players don't meet until late in tournaments. How about the opposite kind of seeding, that is, when you want to have higher ranked players facing higher ranked players, and lower ranked players facing lower ranked players when you have a combined tournament that includes two or three different classes of player. I'm talking about a tournament with for example ABC players, handicapped when two players of different classes face each other, but playing even if they are in the same class. IMO The advantage of lumping A's together, lumping B's together and lumping C's together is that there ends up being a minimum of actual handicapped games.

Watcha think about that? Kind of a different format than what your charts seem to deal with, huh, but maybe helpful if you need to handicap different classes to enlarge the tourney field...

Mr Ingrate
01-12-2004, 09:30 PM
Good question Steve,

To do that using a program like mine you would have to seed all players. Say you were running a 32 man tournment. Seed the first two A players as 1&32, the first two B players as 2&31, the first two C players as 3 & 30, then the next two A players as 4&29, the next two B players as 5&28, the next two C players as 6&27, etc. It would work better if you had only A&B players or A,B,C&D players - any combination of the power of 2, eg 2^1=2, 2^2=4. In my system, with all players seeded the 1st seed always plays the last seed, the second seed plays the second last seed, etc. In the opening round, at least, you would have A vs A, B vs B, C vs C. So the charts don't really preclude the kind of seeding you mentioned.

01-13-2004, 11:46 AM
Mighty, mighty impressive, Dave! It looks like the program does EVERYTHING - single elimination, double elimination, scotch doubles, creates calcuttas, computes payouts, and the list goes on forever.... It must have taken you a LOT of time to write this.

Couple of suggestions/comments. In the documentation when I went to the section "Overview" I expected to see a general description of what the program would do. Instead I found some specifics about using the program. I think putting a general overview of features and capabilities here would be good.

Minor point -- I don't know what a "break pool" is that you refer to in the documentaion. Maybe this is Canada/US terminology difference?

I like the idea of a browser-based interface. Should make it user-friendly. Also, the fact that it can create web pages to be uploaded should really appeal to those that are trying to post info from the road.

However, I don't like the idea that you can't buy the software. I don't like it when MS does this either. I want to own the little bugger if I shell out my moola. Whether I'm right or wrong in my feelings on this, I'm not going to be the only one who feels this way.

But overall, it looks very impressive. I would be happy to test a trial or beta version if you want. I'm sure other CCB'ers would as well.

01-13-2004, 12:41 PM
Nice job. Our bar currently uses a tournament program for the tourney...might even be the one from playpool...not sure. I bet the TD would be willing to give this a trial test as well since they have 6 tourneys a week.

Mr Ingrate
01-13-2004, 05:42 PM

Good point about the overview. I'll put in a features page and change the overview to general instructions.

There is a description of a break pool in the break pool documentation. I was first introduced to the "Break Pool" concept in Santa Clarita, CA so I don't guess it is a purely Canadian thing.

The software has taken me about 2 years so far, and I've been retired the whole time. Yep, it is a lot of work. Right now I'm in-house testing a double elimination tournament of 4096 players. I'll also test with 2049 players to see what 2047 byes will look like.

The problem with software for tournaments is that there is such a small market and low return. I have no hope of ever getting even a reasonable return for my investment of time and effort.

I expect to be adding features as I go along and have decided to initiate a subscription fee approach to pricing. A subscription for a maximum of 64 entries for 90 days costs considerable less that a maximum of 1024 entries for 180 days. If you do 1 relatively large tournament per year you purchase a 90 day subscription. This should be enough time to record entries, etc.

I also will have it set up so the latest version will always be on the web site. If you have an older version, all you have to do is download the newer version and install it. Your activation and data files will not be wiped out.

I prefer this approach to selling a version, and then selling an upgrade, then another upgrade, then another upgrade, ad naseum.

Anyway, that is my thinking on it. Makes administration very easy and you kind of pay as you go.

Mr Ingrate
01-13-2004, 05:46 PM
Well, if your bar is using the "Manager" software from playpool.com that is mine also. I expect that sometime towards the end of the first quarter the "Director" will be available for general release.

Mr Ingrate
01-14-2004, 02:13 PM

Took your suggestion and added a features page and changed the overview to general instructions.

Click here (http://members.shaw.ca/pooltools3/tptd_features.pdf) to view the features page.

Thanks again!

01-14-2004, 08:08 PM

I've been browsing through the documentation for the PTD and it all looks great! You've been to Las Vegas - heck, we met there - and while I'm looking for software to handle the single elim, 1000+ player tourny at Valley Forge, I also want to be able to post the huge bracket sheets so everyone can read them. Last year for the Men's Open event we had 16 64-brackets.

Now I can appreciate you not going to the "names on the address labels" like the BCA does, but can your program piece together a 64-player bracket that's readable? Am I missing something here?


01-15-2004, 12:04 AM
Dave, very nice job! This section lets the potential purchaser quickly see the many, many things the program will do for them and why this program goes way beyond the other tournament software out there. If I ran or reported on tournaments, I definitely would be a customer.

01-15-2004, 10:42 AM
Kinkos will reproduce your brackets on very large sized paper. Just hand them the CD or Disk (format usually doesn't matter) they usually have all the software. A quick call to the nearest store will answer most questions.

PLUS they have the large plotter for the bracket printouts.

01-15-2004, 10:50 AM

We already do this for the tournament. The brackets are all printed up for all the divisions.

What Dave's software, the Pool Tournament Director, does is that it redraws the brackets (on 8 1/2 x 11 paper) instead of printing out names of the winners/losers on labels to put on the brackets.

My question is, how large of a bracket can it draw? What does it look like for a 64-player bracket? What's the final paper size of the bracket?


01-15-2004, 10:58 AM
OK. Barbara, NOW I understand your question...

"Dave, what are you doing Dave?"

Good question.. I am now interested.

Mr Ingrate
01-15-2004, 12:36 PM

Assuming you have 1,024 entries, you will need 16 large 64 player charts and one 16 player chart for the final. To illustrate how this is set up using 8.5 x 11 paper (Luckily I am in the midst of large tournament testing) I created a tournament of 1024 Barbara clones, ie; Barbara Stock-0001, Barbara Stock-0002, etc. I also assumed that I had a block of 64 tables to run this tournament and two hours were allowed between matches. Times are in a 24 hours format. Matches started at 0800 and the last match in the evening was at 2200. The entry fee was $100 and I paid 1/4 of the field. I closed entries, calculated payouts, assigned tables and times, and published some of the charts, etc. that the software generates.

The first three round use 32 pages of 8.5 x 11. That shouldn't take up any more space on a board than 16 large 64 player charts. Here is an example of Section-1 (http://members.shaw.ca/pooltools3/chart_r1_1.htm) and Section-32 (http://members.shaw.ca/pooltools3/chart_r1_2.htm) of the opening three rounds. Using an inexpensive laser printer at 8 ppm, it would take 4 minutes to print these charts. You could print multiple copies to keep one at the tournament desk and others to post in more than one place. It goes without saying that once entries are closed you can have all brackets complete with schedule up on your web site in minutes and could even send them to your favorite web site for publication. Maybe even Billiard's Digest. By the time you get down to round-4 there are now only 128 players and the charts for rounds 4 to 6 take 4 pages. Here is an example of Section-1 (http://members.shaw.ca/pooltools3/chart_r4_1.htm) and Section-4 (http://members.shaw.ca/pooltools3/chart_r4_2.htm) of rounds 4-6.

The final round (7-10) print on one sheet. Here is an example of the Final. (http://members.shaw.ca/pooltools3/final.htm)

The alpha cross reference so players can find their starting position looks like this (http://members.shaw.ca/pooltools3/cross_ref.htm) and a score sheet for the first 3 matches in round 1 looks like this. (http://members.shaw.ca/pooltools3/score.htm)

I hope this gives you a decent visual of how things look. You can print all these pages on your own printer so you can have a better look at them. Try printing in gray scale if you don't like the colors.

Hope this answers your questions and concerns.

01-15-2004, 03:10 PM
Absolutely a great job Dave !!! Must have taken you a while to clone Barbara 1024 times..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Troy...~~~ Wonders what Pete will think about that many wifes... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

01-15-2004, 03:25 PM
Nice programming. In college we had to do an exercise by writing a Chess program using Lisp. We had to have pieces on the board show and we had to have computer AI that would pick the most efficient move down to 3 levels of the sub-tree. Then be able to have two computers play each other. Man that was a b!+c#.

I was watching that mathemetician on the WPT who calls himself X22 (Quack-Quack) because he was one of the first people to write a book on backgammon and wrote some of the first programs. He had a 64 player tourney with players x1-x64 and x22 won the first one he ran.

Todd <--- misses programming.