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Fleece3
11-26-2003, 05:08 AM
Hey gang,

Here is a shot/stroke question. On my follow shots I can not get that pause then follow that I see most good players get. My follows are more of a constant roll (never pausing). What am I doing wrong (wrist snap, to high on the CB) what. I really want the control associated with this shot.

JimS
11-26-2003, 06:19 AM
Have you read the recent threads on draw? Just do what is suggested. Hit very high and use exaggerated follow thru. I was practicing last night and the follow thru took the joint of the cue almost to my bridge hand. That's just for the exaggerated practice but it does carry over to my regular stroke.

I don't care if I get the pause before it zooms ahead. That's just the ball spinning and it may look cool but is seldom necessary. Also, it may have to do with the amount of wax on the cb and the condition of the cloth.

randyg
11-26-2003, 07:59 AM
Fleese3: Let's run a diagnostic check, maybe this can help.

The reason why the cueball stops "pauses" at contact is usually associated with fairly straight in shots. When the cueball strikes an object ball head on, the cue ball looses all of it's directional speed (energy). The only thing left to start it forward again would be rotational speed (topspin)that the cue stick had intially placed on the cueball.

1. Check the weight of your cueball. Should be the same weight.

2. Check where your cue tip finishes on every follow shot. Your cue tip should be level to the table and even pointing down to the table. (I have no idea what an "exaggerated" follow thru has to do with the shot).

3. If your elbow drops at anytime before contact with the cue ball, it's difficult to strike the cue ball at your intended place.

4. Check the angle of cue ball to target, keep it fairly straight for a good visual effect.

5. After the shot, check your grip for loss of energy. Grip should be very light and still pointing to the intended target.

6. Check your cue tip. A hard tip may not transfer enough top spin for your stroke.

7. If all else fails, call me.

Thanks for listning....randyg

woody_968
11-26-2003, 08:48 AM
Another thing that can affect the "pause" is how clean or dirty the cue ball is. If you really want to see the cueball dance clean it and put a fresh coat of wax on it, this reduces the friction of the ball on the cloth and you will get some unbalievable action out of it /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

11-26-2003, 10:35 AM

Alfie
11-26-2003, 04:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> 2. Your cue tip should be level to the table and even pointing down to the table.<hr /></blockquote>This line should confuse a few.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> 5. After the shot, check your grip for loss of energy. <hr /></blockquote>Would you elaborate further on this grip hand energy loss.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> 6. Check your cue tip. A hard tip may not transfer enough top spin for your stroke. <hr /></blockquote>But doesn't a hard tip transfer energy more efficiently than a soft one?

Scott Lee
11-29-2003, 04:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr>
Think acceleration as you are hitting through the ball. As in golf, if you try to 'even stroke' through the ball with no acceleration like a robot, you will flub the shot a lot. The key to a golf stroke is to accelerate through the ball. Same concept in pool. You will have an easier time if your grip,wrist etc. are light/loose and if you accelerate through the cueball.

Good luck,
WW <hr /></blockquote>

WW...Do you accelerate the club head for a short putt? How about for a lag shot with the CB? The only "acceleration" would be for a higher speed swing. I would agree, in the context of the situation the poster is describing...where you want much more rotational speed than directional speed...like Randy described it. However, for a soft stroke, the forward swing speed should be equal to the backswing...SLOW!!! Striking the CB above center will still result in enough rotational speed to cover two lengths of the pool table, with a soft stroke. JMO

Scott

Steve - Detroit
11-29-2003, 07:48 AM
Do you accelerate the club head for a short putt?
Absolutely yes. Velocity is low but acceleration should still be there.

heater451
11-29-2003, 08:56 AM
I had issues with getting 'follow' on the cueball--although, I'm not always attempting the rebound/follow that you describe.

I found out that I was addressing the tip to the top of the cue ball, but by raising it from a centerball stroke, which often caused a miscue as well. To clarify, my cue would be tilted upwards, from butt to tip, and therefore was more likely to miscue (and I did not achieve very much spin).

Lifting the whole cue to be level, or even slightly jacked up (butt higher than tip), has been a help.


============================

Fred Agnir
11-29-2003, 09:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fleece3:</font><hr> Hey gang,

Here is a shot/stroke question. On my follow shots I can not get that pause then follow that I see most good players get. My follows are more of a constant roll (never pausing). What am I doing wrong (wrist snap, to high on the CB) what. I really want the control associated with this shot. <hr /></blockquote>I'll weigh in my 2 cents. The most follow you can give a ball is at about 75% of the height of the cueball. Any higher, and you'll be adding less follow. So, for force follow, 75% high, with a lot of speed gets a lot of follow.

For the stop and go action, as others have said,that's a result of the balls and cloth and their cleanliness (or lack thereof).

Fred

caedos
12-01-2003, 09:12 AM
Quote randyg:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Your cue tip should be level to the table and even pointing down to the table.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This line should confuse a few.
**For most shots, the only time the cue is 'level' using a pendulum stroke (like Randy teaches) is at the moment of contact (tip to cue ball). Even then, most of the time the player is forced to have some elevation due to rails and obstacles (balls) on the table.**

Quote randyg:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5. After the shot, check your grip for loss of energy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would you elaborate further on this grip hand energy loss.
** In a good stroke the cue does the work. When the cue is gripped tightly while trying to use the same amount of energy hitting the cue ball, some of that energy gets used by the extra muscles being used to grip the cue and some gets used up by forcing the arm to move instead of letting it perform naturally and relaxed. Any shift in grip can also shift the tip on the cue ball which also changes the energy distribution for that shot.**

Quote randyg:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. Check your cue tip. A hard tip may not transfer enough top spin for your stroke.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But doesn't a hard tip transfer energy more efficiently than a soft one?


** True. A direct hit to the Center of the cue ball using a hard tip is more efficient energy transfer. In this case we are discussing spinning the ball by moving the tip away from the center of the cue ball. By its nature, this is inefficient because the stick's energy at contact redirects the cue to deflect off of the cue ball. The only thing keeping a tip on the ball long enough to transfer spin and linear energies is a tip that is soft enough to grip the cue ball for a longer period of time. A hard tip is off the cue ball too quickly, and a super hard tip is usually only superior when the cue ball is being shot close to center ball (like a break or jump shot).**


Sorry to hit-n-run... Anyone wanting to reach me should reply to this post as I will not be checking the CCB for awhile due to personal issues.

Take care,

Fred Agnir
12-01-2003, 09:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote caedos:</font><hr>

** True. A direct hit to the Center of the cue ball using a hard tip is more efficient energy transfer. In this case we are discussing spinning the ball by moving the tip away from the center of the cue ball. By its nature, this is inefficient because the stick's energy at contact redirects the cue to deflect off of the cue ball. The only thing keeping a tip on the ball long enough to transfer spin and linear energies is a tip that is soft enough to grip the cue ball for a longer period of time. A hard tip is off the cue ball too quickly, and a super hard tip is usually only superior when the cue ball is being shot close to center ball (like a break or jump shot).**
<hr /></blockquote>This is a common misconception, Carl. Hardness and softness of the tip have nothing to do with "gripping" the tip. They only have to do with compressing/decompressing and contact time, neither of which directly effects the amount of spin.

What "grips" the cueball is the chalk. Any slippage would result in a miscue. If the there is no slippage, then the entire coefficient of friction is due to the chalk. The only time "hardness" affects this is if it's too hard to accept chalk. And even at that, hardness isn't what makes a tip "not hold chalk." It's the surface. put superglue on the top of a tip (but not the sides) and you'll have a soft tip that accepts no chalk.

Addendum: there is another extreme case that says that a super hard tip that is so hard that the contact time is shorter than the speed of sound (to go down and up the stick,) then the energy transfer efficiency goes down to zero. But, that isn't happening any time soon.

Fred

caedos
12-01-2003, 09:43 AM
Sorry for not being detailed. I didn't want to write a book on the process, just a bit on why energy distributes differently from hard to soft tips... Yes, the chalk is the thing isn't it? Because a hard tip lacks compression compared to a soft tip, the contact patch (assuming the same tip curvature) is going to be much smaller for a hard tip contacting a cue ball. A soft tip may easily have over six times the contact area of a hard tip, and (assuming a chalked tip) will have more dwell time and contact area for transferring energy. So yes, chalk is the cause of friction or grip. I can get my break/jump tip very well chalked and it may give me 2 or 3mm more of hittable space away from center ball, but I get limited stop and draw and only whatever follow natural roll will give me (which is useful when needed, but I think you'd agree it's undesirable for regular play). As for putting superglue on the soft tip... sounds like fun! A hard tip and a soft tip treated with super glue will both miscue given a stroke away from center ball, but I'd bet a plugged nickel that the hard tip still leaves the ball faster than the soft shot (and probably not worth the high-speed photography to find out /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

C'ya

Fred Agnir
12-01-2003, 10:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote caedos:</font><hr> Because a hard tip lacks compression compared to a soft tip, the contact patch (assuming the same tip curvature) is going to be much smaller for a hard tip contacting a cue ball. A soft tip may easily have over six times the contact area of a hard tip, and (assuming a chalked tip) will have more dwell time and contact area for transferring energy. <hr /></blockquote>I think that contact patch size and contact time have little to no effect on "energy transfer." There are enough convincing arguments that say that a harder tip will give more spin than a softer one.

Contact patch size only affects ... the contact patch size. The tip offset where that force is applied (center of the patch) remains the same. I think the contact patch increase is simply a result of the tip being soft, and not more than that.

Contact time, IMO, has always been a red herring. Given the amount of energy that a player can give to a stick on any one particular stroke, the longer the tip remains in contact, the force goes down. The shorter the tip contact, the higher the peak force. That is, energy is about the same in either case. You certainly don't gain any. Where is this extra energy coming from that anyone think is added as the time continues? Isn't the amount of energy the player adds to the equation fixed regardless of what tip hardness?

As I added previously, as long as the tip isn't so hard that the speed of sound in the stick isn't high/fast enough to get energy from the rear of the stick into the cueball, you'll get as much spin with a hard tip compared to soft one. But, that over-hard tip isn't a realistic case.

By every realistic study on the hardness, the amount of spin is based mostly (99%?) on tip offset and the speed of the stick. I say mostly because there is a case where the soft tip will not be able to produce as much spin as a harder tip.

Fred

Rod
12-01-2003, 11:28 AM
Don't wish your instant follow away, there is nothing wrong with that type of follow. Many times it is a desired way to follow a ball because you need the c/b to react ASAP. That can be because of clearance or you need it to react sooner to avoid other balls to name a couple.

What should be mentioned is cue angle, stroke speed, C/B contact really effect how the c/b reacts. Granted different angles play there part and so does cloth, humidity, etc. I'm not going to write a book. LOL

The delay gets more noticable with a firm stroke. Just the act of a firm stroke but coupled with a slightly elevated cue, the c/b is not on the cloth. Because of that slight bounce it hesitates more. This hesitation is sometimes desirable to alter the c/b path from the original tangent line a great deal. There are several forms of quick and delayed follows or draws. As you learn more strokes coupled with speed and cue angle it all starts making more sense. Even a jab type stroke has it's purpose. Develope a sound stroke for most of your game and the more specialty type strokes will come in time. BTW keep the thought of a wrist snap out of your game. There is a wrist release for some more than others, but it is NOT a snap.

Rod

12-01-2003, 11:40 AM

Fred Agnir
12-01-2003, 12:03 PM
Post edited in <font color="magenta">magenta</font color> due to author's brain melt down (Thanks SPetty).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> As a matter of fact, on ALL pool shots I'll bet you accelerate your forward stroke Scott. It is impossible not to unless you are a complete retard (only trying to be funny). This is only common sense. Think about it.
<hr /></blockquote>Aarrggh!!

Maybe "accelerating through" proponents just have the wrong definition, I don't know. There have been enough studies, real studies to show that "accelerating through" the cueball is a fantasy.

Here's an excerpt from Bob Jewett on his high-speed tests on "accelerating through" the cueball.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob Jewett reporting of Jacksonville Tapes:</font><hr>
In fact one of the three players doing the test shots was an extreme
proponent of accelerating-stroke. Before the tests, he was absolutely
100% convinced that he couldn't get good spin on the ball without
acceleration through the ball. Then we measured his stroke on what he
felt was an excellent example of acceleration. His stroke was
essentially constant speed over the last 6cm of travel before striking
the cue ball, just like mine. And he is not a typical player; he is a
former European champion of Artistic Billiards (<font color="red">note:Hans de Jaeger</font color>), and he has studied stroke
techniques intently.

I did manage to do a shot that actually accelerated through the ball
but it is very, very awkward to do.

It is amazing how actual data ruins myths like this acceleration stuff.<hr /></blockquote>

I'll say again, but I'm sure it'll be lost in the archives. The vast majority of great pool players actually hit the cueball at near zero acceleration. Often, the <font color="magenta">cuestick</font color> is actually decelerating . I don't know why this seems like such a hard concept for some to take( <font color="magenta">of course it would have been tremendously difficult considering my lack of proofreading skills</font color>). But physical proof on every level has been given. Words from good or great players don't make anything automatically true.

All else equal, which do you think would produce more spin:

1) Constant <font color="magenta">velocity</font color>, <font color="magenta">cue stick</font color> speed at 9 mph

2) <font color="magenta">Cue stick </font color> speed 1 mph <font color="magenta">at contact with the cueball</font color> , accelerating at 100 mph^2

Think about it. It's common sense, after all. It's not the acceleration that matters at contact. It's the speed.

Fred &lt;~~~ door number 1

Anonamus
12-01-2003, 12:30 PM
What happened to his cue speed after contacting the CB? Is there any discussion about the length of time the tip stays in contact with the CB on the different strokes?

Fred, how do you get the CB to roll into the OB instead of sliding into it when you need to hit the ball hard with a lot of follow through?

Steve - Detroit
12-01-2003, 01:11 PM
Fred,
99% of the time you convince me of what you are saying(maybe more) but I'm not quite there on this one yet. I agree completely that the cuetip speed is the most important factor in getting the results we expect (hope for) from the cueball, that should be obvious to all. I also think we can all agree that sometime between the back of our back stroke where tip speed is zero and ball contact where some tip speed is present, there is a period of acceleration. Now, should that acceleration be a larger value over a short part of the tip's path or a smaller value over a longer part of the tip's path. I am still leaning toward the longest part of the path as possible. It just seems that the feeling of acceleration keeps the tip on the path we want the same way it keeps a putter on the right path.
Your thoughts?

Fred Agnir
12-01-2003, 01:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Anonamus:</font><hr> What happened to his cue speed after contacting the CB?<hr /></blockquote>Immediate deceleration to about half the speed before contact

[ QUOTE ]
Is there any discussion about the length of time the tip stays in contact with the CB on the different strokes?<hr /></blockquote> Much information about the contact time. Final analysis: Type of stroke did not have an effect on contact time. Centerball hits were in the .001-.002 sec. Contact time is increased with speed and eccentricity of hit. A softer tip also has increased contact time over a hard tip.

[ QUOTE ]
Fred, how do you get the CB to roll into the OB instead of sliding into it when you need to hit the ball hard with a lot of follow through? <hr /></blockquote> You mean "follow"? The cueball immediately goes into natural foreward roll when hit about 70% of it's height. It doesn't slide if hit there or above. I'm not sure where this question is going.

Fred

SPetty
12-01-2003, 01:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> ..."accelerating through" the cueball is a fantasy.

The vast majority of great pool players actually hit the cueball at near zero acceleration. Often, the <font color="blue">cueball</font color> is actually decelerating.

All else equal, which do you think would produce more spin:

1) Constant <font color="blue">acceleration</font color>, <font color="blue">cueball</font color> speed at 9 mph
2) <font color="blue">Cueball</font color> speed 1 mph, accelerating at 100 mph^2

Think about it. It's common sense, after all. It's not the acceleration that matters at contact. It's the speed.<hr /></blockquote>Are the blue words the right words?

The posts here seem to indicate that there are two states: acceleration (increasing speed/velocity) and deceleration (decreasing speed/velocity). But there is a third state, that of constant speed/velocity.

When I first heard of the concept of "accelerate through every shot", I cringed - it just doesn't make sense to me!

SPetty~~~are you sure you don't mean deaccelerating?/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Fred Agnir
12-01-2003, 01:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve - Detroit:</font><hr> Now, should that acceleration be a larger value over a short part of the tip's path or a smaller value over a longer part of the tip's path. I am still leaning toward the longest part of the path as possible. It just seems that the feeling of acceleration keeps the tip on the path we want the same way it keeps a putter on the right path.
Your thoughts? <hr /></blockquote>

I'm of the "longer stroke" camp. I think the acceleration of the cue stick happens rapidly, but that the rate of acceleration decreases (but the speed is still increasing) up until maybe 3-5 inches before contact. I think that's close to a natural pendulum.

Using the Wei table, the path of the grip hand might look like this:

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pg9V9%Qh1H7%Re3P4%S a1Q3%_`5P9
%`e7O8%ah0J7
)END

Where the hand has increasing acceleration towards the direction of the cueball from point A to B, but the acceleration starts to decrease from B on, until it's near zero acceleration and therefore constant velocity (in the direction of the cueball) at point C and beyond.

I think the fact that the cue is at near constant velocity for a quite long time from point C and on that allows us to have some semblance of repeatability.

I think that trying to have a high acceleration over a shorter path is doable, but not as repeatable for most people.

Fred

Rod
12-01-2003, 01:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You mean "follow"? The cueball immediately goes into natural foreward roll when hit about 70% of it's height. It doesn't slide if hit there or above. I'm not sure where this question is going.

<hr /></blockquote>

Since were nit picking a little, here is where my opinion differs. It may have top spin but it doesn't have to have an immidate natural forward roll. Depending on how much distance is between the c/b and o/b ball plus cue angle and speed is what determines that. The c/b may not even be on the table bed, it's hard to roll natural if it's feet aren't even on the ground. LOL That's assuming it's a fairly straight shot. If it has more angle or comes off a rail it can have a lot more delay.

Rod

Rod
12-01-2003, 02:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm of the "longer stroke" camp. I think the acceleration of the cue stick happens rapidly, but that the rate of acceleration decreases (but the speed is still increasing) up until maybe 3-5 inches before contact. <hr /></blockquote>

Without getting to nit picky I'd assume about the same for most shots. Acceleration reaches its peak fairly early for the most part and levels out. Arm speed is really slow for most shots so I'd imagine if your bridge is a foot long then it had more than adequit time. If I don't need the distance I'll shorten my bridge. That helps with the need for acceleration to the cue ball. It serves its purpose when you don't want to quit or decel on certain shots. Something I see a lot of with real long strokers. Either that or its testy on how much and over spin the ball. I think more important for most shots is stay as close to constant grip pressure, that includes Golf.

Years ago they tested the best puttters and the not as good putters on tour. The grip had pressure sensors under the wrap. It showed the best putters, speed and direction held grip pressure very consistant. The not as good putters had spikes in pressure. That was usually as the ball was hit. The same happens in pool. Good players have much more consistant grip pressure, which is very light. Beginners to somewhat and including advanced players have the tendacy to have spikes in their pressure. That near perfect constant pressure is why it looks so effortless and easy. Obviously that is why you see spastic moves /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif in over 95 % of the pool players.


~~ Rod

Steve - Detroit
12-01-2003, 02:23 PM
OK, I think I'm with you now. Hadn't really thought about a decreasing value of acceleration over a very significant portion of the path, it "feels" pretty constant, even through impact. I never would have guessed it was zero that far before impact either, but if that's what the tapes show, I certainly have no data to refute it. I know this info isn't going to make me play any better but it's sure an interesting part of the game to me but heck, what do I know, I only carry one stick to the PH.
Thanks Fred

Fred Agnir
12-01-2003, 03:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> ..."accelerating through" the cueball is a fantasy.

The vast majority of great pool players actually hit the cueball at near zero acceleration. Often, the <font color="blue">cueball</font color> is actually decelerating.

All else equal, which do you think would produce more spin:

1) Constant <font color="blue">acceleration</font color>, <font color="blue">cueball</font color> speed at 9 mph
2) <font color="blue">Cueball</font color> speed 1 mph, accelerating at 100 mph^2

Think about it. It's common sense, after all. It's not the acceleration that matters at contact. It's the speed.<hr /></blockquote>Are the blue words the right words?

The posts here seem to indicate that there are two states: acceleration (increasing speed/velocity) and deceleration (decreasing speed/velocity). But there is a third state, that of constant speed/velocity.<hr /></blockquote>

Hmmm. You'd think after reading it over and over, I would have come closer to my thoughts than what I wrote. I'm not even in the same ballpark. Wow. Now I don't know what I was thinking.

I must have meant:

1) Constant velocity,zero acceleration, cue stick speed at 9mph

or

2) Constant acceleration at 100 mph^2, cue stick speed at 1 mph when contacting the cueball.

Fred &lt;~~~ terrible

Alfie
12-01-2003, 04:01 PM
First of all, thank you, caedos.

caedos:
**For most shots, the only time the cue is 'level' using a pendulum stroke (like Randy teaches) is at the moment of contact (tip to cue ball). Even then, most of the time the player is forced to have some elevation due to rails and obstacles (balls) on the table.**

By "check where your cue tip finishes ..." I understood Randy to mean "use either a level follow through or the tip dropping follow through that one gets with a pendulum stroke." I'll go for that. Some who think it should be one way or the other will be confused, IMO.

caedos:
** In a good stroke the cue does the work. When the cue is gripped tightly while trying to use the same amount of energy hitting the cue ball, some of that energy gets used by the extra muscles being used to grip the cue and some gets used up by forcing the arm to move instead of letting it perform naturally and relaxed.**

This explanation always sounded suspect to me. Are you saying that in a pool stroke I can swing my hand forward faster with a more relaxed hand?

caedos:
** Any shift in grip can also shift the tip on the cue ball which also changes the energy distribution for that shot.**

I certainly agree with this.

Scott Lee
12-02-2003, 01:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>
Years ago they tested the best puttters and the not as good putters on tour. The grip had pressure sensors under the wrap. It showed the best putters, speed and direction held grip pressure very consistant. The not as good putters had spikes in pressure. That was usually as the ball was hit. The same happens in pool. Good players have much more consistant grip pressure, which is very light. Beginners to somewhat and including advanced players have the tendacy to have spikes in their pressure. That near perfect constant pressure is why it looks so effortless and easy. Obviously that is why you see spastic moves /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif in over 95 % of the pool players.


~~ Rod <hr /></blockquote>

I like the way you put that Rod. I agree that grip pressure is a likely culprit in almost all the "spastic movements" that you were talking about, and we see in every poolroom in the land! Nice description.

Scott

Scott Lee
12-02-2003, 01:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> That of course begs the question, is it better to accelerate slightly or to do it the Scott Lee way? IMO, if you accelerate slightly, you can never deaccelerate. No one is perfect (except for you Scott LOL), so I think it is better to accelerate on all pool shots (99% of them anyway), including the short short back and short short follow through stroke.

Regards, WW <hr /></blockquote>

WW...This becomes a semantics issue here, imo. Of course there is SOME acceleration. You're starting the forward swing from a dead stop. How much acceleration is too much?
I still stand by using the weight of the cue and timing to create swing speed, rather than exaggerated muscle movement and tighter grip pressure.

Me perfect? NOT! LOL Never have been, never will be...never said I was either! There are many ways to skin a cat. None are necessarily right or wrong. I just try to teach something that the majority of players can pick up on, and learn quickly.

Scott

caedos
12-02-2003, 04:05 PM
First of all, thank you, caedos.

caedos:
**For most shots, the only time the cue is 'level' using a pendulum stroke (like Randy teaches) is at the moment of contact (tip to cue ball). Even then, most of the time the player is forced to have some elevation due to rails and obstacles (balls) on the table.**

By "check where your cue tip finishes" I understood Randy to mean "use either a level follow through or the tip dropping follow through that one gets with a pendulum stroke." I'll go for that. Some who think it should be one way or the other will be confused, IMO.
++TRUE, TRUE++

caedos:
** In a good stroke the cue does the work. When the cue is gripped tightly while trying to use the same amount of energy hitting the cue ball, some of that energy gets used by the extra muscles being used to grip the cue and some gets used up by forcing the arm to move instead of letting it perform naturally and relaxed.**

This explanation always sounded suspect to me. Are you saying that in a pool stroke I can swing my hand forward faster with a more relaxed hand?
++TRUE, TRUE. TRY SHAKING A TIGHT FIST/ARM VERSUS A RELAXED FIST/ARM AND SEE WHICH MOVES FASTER, MORE EASILY, AND MORE ACCURATELY. IN THE PENDULUM STROKE, IT IS THE BICEP THAT TAKES THE CUE FORWARD AND STROKES. NO OTHER MUSCLES ARE NEEDED TO MOVE THE CUE, ONLY TO HOLD THE CUE AND STABILIZE THE BODY. THE SAME PRINCIPLES ARE OFTEN APPLIED IN MARTIAL ARTS BUT ARE SUBCONSCIOUS BEHAVIORS SO SOON WITH THE CORRECT TRAINING THAT THEY ARE OFTEN TAKEN FOR GRANTED OR FORGOTTEN.++

caedos:
** Any shift in grip can also shift the tip on the cue ball which also changes the energy distribution for that shot.**

I certainly agree with this.

SPetty
12-02-2003, 04:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Hmmm. You'd think after reading it over and over, I would have come closer to my thoughts than what I wrote. Now I don't know what I was thinking.<hr /></blockquote>Whew! Okay, so I thought I understood what you meant, but then when I actually read it, what I thought you meant wasn't what you said! So you did mean what I thought you meant and not what you wrote, which didn't make sense anyway! /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif hahaha

Alfie
12-02-2003, 06:44 PM
caedos:
** TRY SHAKING A TIGHT FIST/ARM VERSUS A RELAXED FIST/ARM AND SEE WHICH MOVES FASTER, MORE EASILY, AND MORE ACCURATELY. **

Not a shake, but a single movement in one direction. I can't tell which moves faster. More easily is not my question. More accurately has already been agreed to.

Thanks again, caedos, but it is still suspect. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif