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woody_968
11-29-2003, 01:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
WW...Do you accelerate the club head for a short putt? How about for a lag shot with the CB? The only "acceleration" would be for a higher speed swing. I would agree, in the context of the situation the poster is describing...where you want much more rotational speed than directional speed...like Randy described it. However, for a soft stroke, the forward swing speed should be equal to the backswing...SLOW!!! Striking the CB above center will still result in enough rotational speed to cover two lengths of the pool table, with a soft stroke. JMO

Scott <hr /></blockquote>

Scott I moved this here as I thought others may be interested also. I must say your comment on swing speed staying the same through the stroke has me scratching my head and dying to get to my pool table to do some tinkering.
In golf you do accelorate on short putts, on all shots accept some specialty shots. Dave Pelz - short game guru - takes it a step farther and explains that acceleration produces stability. Think of pulling a little red wagon versus pushing the same wagon, much easier to go in a straight line if you are pulling the object you are trying to move. I have messed around with this theory in pool, and find I have a more consistant stroke if I use my forearm to control the forward motion (pulling) more so than making a forward movement with my hand from the wrist (pushing).
I may be totally off base on this and that is why I wanted to ask your opinion, I have heard some say you need wrist snap to produce some of the spin needed, but I never felt I could produce consistant results with a wrist snap.
Thanks for your input.
Woody

ceebee
11-30-2003, 11:29 AM
here's my experience to this question.

Accleration can mean anything from .1 mph to 100 mph. The idea of acceleration is that a "positive force" is being applied, rather than a "braking force".

In Golf, the acceleration method is used to give the golf ball a direction, which helps pick it up out of the grass &amp; develop a rotational direction as it starts it's roll to the cup.

Slow rolling a cue ball needs a bit of rotational direction to hold it on line, too. You can't apply any or much rotation to the cue ball, if you are braking or slowing your stroke as you hit the cue ball.

Chris Cass
11-30-2003, 04:59 PM
Hi Woody,

Forearm is correct. I stroke the cue should equal the speed you want to apply to the cb. What I mean is when you see someone with extremely fast warm up strokes then slow them down to hit the shot they're using too much muscle. The muscle locks up to stop then when accelerating will cause them inconsistancy. I'm not talking stroking through the cb but stroking straight. IMHO

Regards,

C.C.~~did that make sence????

woody_968
11-30-2003, 08:19 PM
Well I finally had some time at the table to mess around with less of an acceleration thought and more of a forward stroke equals back stroke and must say I am amazed. I realize that different thoughts will work for different people, but for me my stroke felt much smoother and the cueballs reactions were outstanding.
The one thing I did notice, much like golf, I had to make sure I didn't make too long of a backstroke, as then I would be trying to decelerate coming into the ball. Of course that is something you need to avoid no matter what type of stroke you are using, just a bit more noticeable.
I plan on working on it a bit more, but I think I am going to get away from trying to accelerate at impact. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee
12-01-2003, 04:30 AM
Woody...I have always been a advocate of using the cuestick as a projectile (weight, timing, and momentum), rather than using muscle to create the speed of the stroke. Poolplayers seem to, in many cases, be more at ease, with "accelerating" through the forward stroke, using muscle, rather than letting the weight of the cue (in a pendulum swing) and perfect timing create the stroke speed. A "muscled" swing, even with good followthrough, imo, produces less effect (action on the CB), and less accuracy, without more "power". The feeling of 'throwing' the cue through the CB, with a relaxed grip, and perfect timing, allows the CB to accelerate quickly, easily, and accurately...and produces significantly more CB effect (regardless of where you are aiming on the CB), than a "muscled" or 'punch-like' stroke. Again, this is just my opinion, but experience shows me that this works very well for a whole lot of players. Plus it teaches you that you can deliver a lot of CB effect, with very little speed or effort. I also think it's easier to stroke the CB accurately that way. The "acceleration" idea, imo, is unnecessary for soft strokes, like a lag for example, and only comes into play when shooting at medium or higher speeds. The backswing needs to remain at a slow, fixed speed, to allow for a smooth transition to the forward stroke (whether you pause long at the back end of the swing, or not)...especially when shooting high speed shots. One the biggest mistakes I see players of all abilities making is too fast of a backswing. This creates an abrupt stop (which tightens the arm muscles, and makes it difficult to have a relaxed, controlled forward stroke through the CB), and changeover to the forward stroke...making an accurate hit on the CB that much more difficult, regardless of how hard you plan to shoot the shot. I carry this same concept even into the break! I liked the way CeeBee put it... acceleration can be any speed, and so there IS some acceleration in all shots. However, for something like a lag speed stroke (which I define as shooting a shot where the OB just falls off the end of the slate, NOT hitting the back of the pocket), I find that the same slow backswing, works excellently to control the minimum amount of forward speed necessary to pocket the ball. Lots of players don't like this concept, but I find it to be eye-opening for a lot of students who experiment with it (like you did). Cetainly in some circumstances (like a table that rolls off strongly, for example) you sometimes need to accelerate more through the CB, using a higher speed stroke to offset the table roll. You called it 'stability' in a golf putt.
I'm no golfer, but I don't think there's much, if any, forward acceleration on a one foot putt or less. Too much speed and the ball rims out of the cup. A shorter backswing (similarly in pool) will help to moderate this.
Maybe RandyG can comment on this, as he is a excellent golfer, as well as poolplayer! Overall, I believe clubhead or cuestick speed, and timing, are the critical issues for either sport. Interesting thread!

Scott Lee

randyg
12-01-2003, 09:48 AM
Good morning Scott: Interesting thread indeed. I always enjoy the positive comments as opposed to the others.

ACCELERATION: Wonderfull thought. I'm in full agreement with you.

As long as your cue stick is continueing to accelerate through the cue ball at impact, you can maintain speed control and directional control. Any time you slow your cuestick down at impact you lose consistency in those two areas. Can we play with a "Punch Stroke"? Absolutely, we see thousands of players punch it every day. Can we become consistently better with a "Punch Stroke"? Probably NOT! There is no gauge for de-acceleration.

With the "throwing" or tossing motion that most good instructors like Scott teach, you can gain a consistency for accuracy and cue ball control in a very short time.

In a putt or chip (short or long), great golfers strive to accelerate their clubhead through the ball, but their stroke is shortened and modified for the situation.

One of the most requested workshops we teach in school is the workshop on "Finesse Speed". How to accurately move your cue ball a quarter of an inch or maybe two diamonds. Doesn't make any difference the distance, our students graduate understanding the physics and kinestics of the shot.....Great post, let's see more ideas.....randyg