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CarolNYC
12-02-2003, 06:19 AM
On the front page of this mornings NY Post, a stupid owner took a Rottweiler pup and tied a rubberband around his tail in hopes to cut off his circulation so as to cut the tail with a cleaver-what happened to him-10 days in jail-give me a break!Forgive me, but they should tied a bungee cord around his "you know what" until it fell off!Harsher punishments should be applied to animal abusers!
Carol~boy, if I was an animal cop!

Kato
12-02-2003, 07:06 AM
Carol, have you seen "Animal Cops"? They are in NY and they are great. They bust people, take away abused pets and the like.

That guy is a jerk. What's worse is he's a cheap, stupid jerk.

Kato

CarolNYC
12-02-2003, 07:27 AM
Hey Kato,
Yep,watch it all the time-they also have the authority to carry weapons-boy, there'd be alopt of dead people,ha ha ha ha
love ya,
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif The only problem is - there are only 2 animal cops per borough! /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Kato
12-02-2003, 07:40 AM
I guess there just aren't enough cops. It's really a shame though. Those animals can't defend or take care of themselves. I saw that show last week and for a few of the dogs it worked out very well. Brought a smile to my face.

Kato

Qtec
12-02-2003, 10:07 AM
What about this sweetie then. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

http://members.lycos.nl/agli2/hpbimg/sziCap2.JPG

A 60kg bugs bunny!!!!!

Q

nAz
12-02-2003, 12:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> they should tied a bungee cord around his "you know what" until it fell off!
Carol~boy, if I was an animal cop! <hr /></blockquote>

Ouch!

but i agree he should be castrated.

Sid_Vicious
12-02-2003, 12:53 PM
Carol...I'm not sure this was not possibly common,,,in a veterinarian class I took in college we used rubber banding to castrate pigs, and I'd think that would be far more severe in cruelty than this tail thing, especially if I had both a tail and my jewels...GIMME the tail rubber band thingy. Seriously though, if the vets and pig farmers utilize rubber banding, should it cost some smuck 10 days in lock up for this tail thing? I'm unsure that it is fair...sid

eg8r
12-02-2003, 01:00 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously though, if the vets and pig farmers utilize rubber banding, should it cost some smuck 10 days in lock up for this tail thing? I'm unsure that it is fair...sid <hr /></blockquote> Are you honestly trying to compare veterinarians with animal abusers? LOL, sometimes I have to sit back and just laugh.

eg8r

Sid_Vicious
12-02-2003, 01:07 PM
Now just a minute, you are avoiding that the practice of cutting off circulation in the vet industry during castration is an accepted practice. If so then an owner using the same methodology for a simple tail on a dog gettig to be labeled an abuser is totally perposterous. Get real, Oh I forgot you're a concervative, just stay the way you are, no hope anyway...sid~~~no rubber band made to cut off that afflicted body part

Wally_in_Cincy
12-02-2003, 01:19 PM
There are different standards for pigs and dogs. Heck they castrate pigs with no anesthetic. If you did that to a dog you would go to jail. and rightly so.

Wally~~if ever get another dog I'm going to name him Dubya /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

UWPoolGod
12-02-2003, 01:28 PM
Heck I remember when I grew up my parents got a calf from someone and they rubber banded the sack of it. That's just common practice.

eg8r
12-02-2003, 01:33 PM
Sid, it is the logic that I am laughing at. I hardly find the relevance of politics in this thread.

Back to the thread, I don't think I was avoiding that at all. I will take you word that it is an "accepted" practice in the vet industry. Is cutting off a tail and castration even remotely the same thing? Would this be any different if it was on a human?

eg8r

eg8r
12-02-2003, 01:34 PM
This is all new to me, and frankly it sounds gross. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I am a city boy and probably would not last 2 seconds in the country. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

eg8r

Cueless Joey
12-02-2003, 02:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> This is all new to me, and frankly it sounds gross. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I am a city boy and probably would not last 2 seconds in the country. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>
You will if there's a little bar somewhere with a barbox and a roomfull of sukkers. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CarolNYC
12-02-2003, 03:07 PM
Hell Sid,
I know slaughterhouses use to just slam pigs right in the head-but as far as comparing it to a veterinarians practice, I think its a little far-fetched-I dont know about the vets in your area, but here, they treat their animals as PATIENTS! They are anesthesized,they are given antibiotics and aspirin, believe it or not ,for pain and then they have their follow-up visit-I do understand what your saying, but the article stated he was going to cut off the tail with a cleaver-jesus Christ-have you ever tied something around a dogs tail and watched him run around frantically-I just couldnt imagine this poor animal having to deal with this-its inhumame-hopefully, the guy was put 10 days in the BRklyn house of detention or on Rikers with Big Bubba!Then maybe he'll really learn about the "doggie-style"! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Carol

heater451
12-02-2003, 05:23 PM
I worked on a beef cattle farm in TN, back in 90-91. There was about 115 head, and we 'clamped' the young bulls, to make them steers.

One of the old farmers told me that some people used rubberbands, which were left on, to cut the circulation off. I guess they were left until they fell off on there own, because he said that it would sometimes cause the flesh to die, and you might even have insects attacking it (flies laying maggot eggs, I assume).

The clampers we used didn't seem that humane to me either, but at least it was over quickly. They resemble a large pair of bolt-cutters, but instead of blades, there was a kind of tounge-and-groove set of jaws. The bull would go into the head-catcher, and the clamps would be used at the top of the scrotum, to 'crack' the vas deferens. (I'm guessing the name is the same for bovines.) I know, TMI, right? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif The funny (?) thing was, the bulls that walked into the head-catcher with no issue, would scream and kick on the way out (don't blame them), while the ones that fought going in, would usually walk out like their life was over (don't blame them either).

Just more FYI/TMI, the best way, he said, was to get to a newborn calf, and just take a sharp (and clean) pocketknife to the scrotum--just enough to access and cut the 'tubes'. The downside was, you had avoid a 1200-1800 lb mother to do it!

To bring this back to the original thread, I think that the age of the pup has to be considered. If you band a puppies tail, it should be done while they are within a couple of weeks old (my father used to do this with Cocker Spaniels, IIRC). I wouldn't go the cleaver route though--that's just too psycho. That, and I think that they should have shown the guy how it felt, by using his little finger.

Oh, one more thing, even though I worked cattle, and could tell the cows apart, and was sad when they were marched onto the truck to the market, I'm definitely still a carnivore. (Sometimes, denial is a good thing. . . .)



=======================

TomBrooklyn
12-02-2003, 06:05 PM
It seems to me we need more information about the proper proceedure for snipping a Rotwieller's tail before we can judge if the subject really did anything wrong. I see no reason why the Government should be interfering with a persons right to care for their own animal if they are following reasonable normal proceedures and accepted practices. Maybe the Veternarians lobby, in order to generate more business for themselves, has gotten laws passed to prevent people from caring for their own animals.

TomBk

PS The thread title gives me a mental picture of someone admonishing: "Bad dog owner. Bad, Bad, Bad!" while hitting him with a rolled up newspaper.

eg8r
12-02-2003, 07:30 PM
That was definitely TMI. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

CarolNYC
12-03-2003, 02:44 AM
Hi Tom,
Any operation done to any living thing, I think, should be done by proper doctors-I find it very sad that there is so many things done to animals-it really blows me away!
Years ago, I had a red doberman-well, as you know, there all born with ears and tails-when he was a pup, we had his ears cut so that they would stand up-I cried my eyes out-he had to wear theses sticks in them to keep them straight-medication was put on it everyday-I'd never do it again-also, I adopted a kitten for my daughter,well it scratched my daughter across the face from one side to the other-I flipped and had it declawed-front paws-omg-I truly asked God to forgive me-so, Im no saint-Im just sorry there arent harsher punishments for animals! /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I feel this owner was "a very,very,very bad man!"-Babu from Seinfeld!
Take care!
Carol

CarolNYC
12-03-2003, 02:46 AM
Awwwww Heater,
I definitely feel for you-but,ahhhhhhhhhh,no more please-I cant!
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

CarolNYC
12-03-2003, 02:53 AM
Eg8r,
Your gonna freak on this one-I absolutely love horses-I use to spend my summers at my cousins and she had horses-well, on TV one day, they showed horse-fighting-Im not sure where,might be Korea-they put two male horses in a ring and then a female-now the males fight-OMG-the biting,kicking-just to see these beautiful animals hurting eachother and ya wanna know what the sickest thing is? The damn people enjoyed it!Had to turn the channel-Unbelievable!
/ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gifCarol

eg8r
12-03-2003, 06:59 AM
Yeah, that is pretty sick. I would have turned away also.

eg8r

CarolNYC
12-03-2003, 07:14 AM
http://pugs.com/peds/GORBY.jpg
Well, heres a cute one for you Eg8r,
How about waking up to this face ,snoring and earping at you ,at 2 am,ha ha ha ha
Carol~loves her little MIB dog! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

eg8r
12-03-2003, 07:55 AM
LOL. I am not sure I would be excited at 2AM, but he/she is cute. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

bluewolf
12-04-2003, 06:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> It seems to me we need more information about the proper proceedure for snipping a Rotwieller's tail before we can judge if the subject really did anything wrong. <hr /></blockquote>

Rotties tails are appropriately snipped by a vet within a few days of birth. After that, it is major surgery not unlike removing 'dewclaws'.

Don't shoot the dogs.
Shoot the bad owners.

Ten days in jail and a fine is not nearly enough imo. In some states, they are trying to change animal cruelty from a misdimenor(sp?) to a felony.

Animals, to me, are precious beings given to us to love, to protect, take care of. A dog gives his or her undying loyalty. To treat man's best friend this way, IMO, is an abomination. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Laura

TomBrooklyn
01-17-2004, 02:00 AM
By Amanda Paulson
Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

When Jon Hammer enters his Brittany spaniel, Ms. Dale's Spooner, in dog
shows, he knows the judges will most likely penalize him for - as he sees
it - refusing to violate New York's animal anticruelty law.
That's because Spooner's tail is 10 inches long. According to the breed
guidelines for Brittanys, it should have been cut off, or "docked," to no
more than four inches.

For decades dog enthusiasts have accepted practices like docking and ear
clipping as an entirely normal part of the grooming of many show dogs -
including Doberman pinschers, boxers, and a number of terriers - making a
dog's looks of paramount concern, and giving little or no thought to
questions of the animal's rights.

But today some animal-rights advocates are raising their voices to say such
practices are both cruel and unnecessary.

"That the American Kennel Club has a standard that for strictly cosmetic
purposes requires cutting off a dog's tail seems ridiculous and arcane," Mr.
Hammer says, explaining why he's spent four years fighting a lawsuit against
the AKC and the American Brittany Club.

Last week, New York's highest court heard arguments in the case. Hammer
claims that by enforcing the tail standard, the AKC and the ABC are
violating a New York law that prohibits animal mutilation. Those groups
counter that the standard is historic, important for keeping the dog's tail
from getting entangled in brush when hunting, and that dogs with undocked
tails are still welcome to compete.

In the end, the court's decision may be based less on the definition of
cruelty than on whether Hammer, as a private citizen, has the right to
enforce a criminal statute.

But his case is only the latest example in a growing tide of efforts to
broaden, strengthen, and enforce anticruelty acts that exist on paper but
haven't always meant much in practice.

"We've had these laws on the books for decades, but they've traditionally
been statements of philosophical ideals rather than vigorously enforced
laws," says Matthew Penzer, legal counsel at People for the Ethical
Treatment of Animals (PETA). Now, he says, "we're seeing a broader
application of those laws."

Mr. Penzer points to several trends he finds encouraging:

. More states (41, at last count) make animal-cruelty offenses felonies
rather than misdemeanors.

. Pet custody cases in which judges consider what's in the best interest of
the animal rather than simply treating it as property.

. Instances, including cases in California and North Carolina last year, in
which people convicted of animal cruelty were actually given jail
sentences - nearly unheard of in the past.

. Decisions in wrongful-death cases that award pet owners compensation for
emotional anguish and loss of companionship, not just the retail value of
the pet.

But for some animal-rights advocates such gains are trivial in the context
of the much greater cruelty inflicted on animals every day.

Gary Francione, a law professor at Rutgers University Law School in Newark,
N.J., who started the Animal Rights Law Project, dismisses most of those
signs of "progress" as distractions from real cruelty.

"When one considers the whole range of really troubling things we do with
nonhuman animals - we selectively pick things out and focus on them, and the
fact that they get focused on really pushes the discussion away from the
more pervasive problems," he says. Professor Francione considers the
anticruelty laws - which tend to exclude any suffering that complies with
"industry standards" - virtually useless, since they rule out cruelty to
animals raised for food or used in experiments.

Even with cats and dogs, the examples of positive trends may not mean much,
he says. The felony upgrade makes some police and prosecutors even more
reluctant to press charges, and the emotional- anguish awards are no
different, in his view, from recognizing that a worthless family heirloom
has emotional value. "It doesn't mean you're not looking at pets as
property," he says.

As for Hammer's lawsuit about tail-docking, Francione considers the whole
thing a bit absurd. "You have this process of dogs being bred and shown - a
formalized exploitation of dogs, and a real problem where, when dogs don't
meet expectations, they get sent to rescue leagues or killed. And here's
this guy saying, 'I don't want to dock the tail because I think that's
cruelty?'.... I've got news for you: This whole thing you're participating
in is directly and indirectly cruel to dogs."

But for those in the purebred dog world, keeping - or outlawing - such
practices is a major issue. Tail-docking and ear-clipping are already
illegal in most European countries, including Britain.

The AKC accepts the guidelines of official breed groups, many of which see
themselves as historical gatekeepers. "A lot of these parent [breed] clubs
look at themselves [as] protecting the history and parentage of the breed,"
explains Lainie Cantrell of the AKC.

Ruling in favor of Hammer would call into question the standards of the
other 145 breed clubs in the US, ABC attorney Debra Resnick told Reuters.
"It would be like making declawing a cat an act of cruelty," she said.

Well, yes. And de-barking dogs, and removing dogs' dewclaws. There's already
a bill pending in California to ban cat declawing, says Teri Barnato,
director of the Association of Veterinarians for Animal Rights in Davis,
Calif. A bill to ban ear-clipping is in the works. But even while such
practices are still legal, Ms. Barnato is encouraged by the number of vets
who are starting to take a stand on their own. In one recent survey of
California vets, only 10 percent said they will clip ears, and 56 percent
support legislation to ban it.

Ear-clipping and tail-docking "have been passed down through the ages by
breed clubs who don't want to change those standards, regardless of the fact
that people are aware they're painful procedures, not medically necessary,
and done only because people like that continuing look of the dog," says
Barnato. "But I think people are starting to be more sensitive to the needs
of other living beings."

Aboo
01-22-2004, 04:33 PM
I can't find a link to this story, but trust me, it really happened.

There was a lady that came out on the deck of her apartment one day and looked down to see a group of young men standing around a Bar-B-Q grill laughing and pointing and poking something in the grill. Concerned the lady went to investigate... What she found, and reported to police, was a kitten, trapped on a bed of lit charcoal briquettes... literally cooking to death.

She rescued the kitten from it's tormentor's and rushed it to the vet but there was no hope for the kitten, it died.

These gentleman are, I believe, facing felony animal cruelty charges.

Here's a similar story from across the pond...

Microwaved...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/597567.stm

Petition and description of the BBQ incident.
=1&amp;sign[memberID]=748258565&amp;sign[partner_userID]=748258565]http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/563910334?ts=1074811442&amp;sign[partnerID]=1&amp;sign[memberID]=748258565&amp;sign[partner_userID]=748258565 (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/563910334?ts=1074811442&amp;sign[partnerID)


I was raised on a farm too and participated in the snipping and clipping of many animals. IMHO the worst were the piglets. It had to be done, especially their teeth, but man they squeeled something awful.

CarolNYC
01-23-2004, 05:35 AM
[ QUOTE ]
facing felony animal cruelty charges.

<hr /></blockquote>

GREAT!
I understand living on a farm, you have to do what you have to do!:)
Take care!
Carol