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Fleece3
12-05-2003, 06:17 AM
OK, I have a bone to pick. Some people up here hates when people refer to the cloth as "FELT" (I am in the group). However, I hate when people say "Your cue must be LEVEL to the table". This is IMPOSSIBLE. Look at the structure of a table. The rail is about 3/4 the height of a ball. So if you are shooting a draw shot and your cue butt must clear the rail, how could you have a LEVEL cue. I have watch many a people talk the level cue talk. However I have very rarely actually seen a LEVEL cue. And the few time I have seen it was on follow shots. Center or draw? Can't happen

Billy
12-05-2003, 07:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fleece3:</font><hr> OK, I have a bone to pick. Some people up here hates when people refer to the cloth as "FELT" (I am in the group). However, I hate when people say "Your cue must be LEVEL to the table". This is IMPOSSIBLE. Look at the structure of a table. The rail is about 3/4 the height of a ball. So if you are shooting a draw shot and your cue butt must clear the rail, how could you have a LEVEL cue. I have watch many a people talk the level cue talk. However I have very rarely actually seen a LEVEL cue. And the few time I have seen it was on follow shots. Center or draw? Can't happen <hr /></blockquote>

as level as possible?

in essence one is only asking another to raise the butt of your cue as little as possible with the majority of pool shots?

jmo

pooltchr
12-05-2003, 08:04 AM
I think most of us agree that a cue is not going to be "level". I think keeping it as level as possible is what most people mean when they talk about a level cue.

I think most of the instructors will agree that the primary issue here is how the tip of the cue is traveling when it makes contact with the cue ball. There is a point in the stroke when the path of the tip is at it's most level (consistent and predictible) motion. Before and after that point, the tip is either moving upward or downward. Even if you could get the cue perfectly level, it would be nearly impossible to keep it that way while stroking. The idea is to find the "sweet spot" of the stroke, and make sure that is when the tip is making contact with the cue ball.

Fred Agnir
12-05-2003, 08:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> I think most of us agree that a cue is not going to be "level". I think keeping it as level as possible is what most people mean when they talk about a level cue.<hr /></blockquote>

My point of contention on this issue has always been these two shots:

START(
%AH7G6%BI0Z7%WL3Z8%XO6Z5%YJ8I4%ZN3K6

)END

Clearly, these two shots a person can actually get the cueball as level as level can be because there is no rail interference. The question is, who does? I don't. I think the body mechanics makes "not level" much easier than "as level as possible". So, I honestly think that the "as level as possible" is also incorrect for the vast majority of players.

Fred &lt;~~~ not advocating "jacking up" however.

Rod
12-05-2003, 11:42 AM
Hope you feel better and the bone is picked. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

~~~ rod, not level

JimS
12-05-2003, 01:29 PM
Got a better idea? Or just feelin kinda bitchy today and don't really have anything productive to say. I mean, it looks to me like you'd have a better suggestion if you had any intention of being helpful. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

heater451
12-05-2003, 06:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>My point of contention on this issue has always been these two shots:

START(
%AH7G6%BI0Z7%WL3Z8%XO6Z5%YJ8I4%ZN3K6

)END

Clearly, these two shots a person can actually get the cueball as level as level can be because there is no rail interference. The question is, who does? I don't. I think the body mechanics makes "not level" much easier than "as level as possible". So, I honestly think that the "as level as possible" is also incorrect for the vast majority of players.

Fred &lt;~~~ not advocating "jacking up" however. <hr /></blockquote>With those shots, it's true that most (if not all) people would not shoot truly level. Even considering the buffer space one naturally leaves between the felt (ha-ha. . ."cloth") and the knuckles/fingers/hand--even with those who grip minimally, like w/ thumb and forefinger.

As it is, "as level as possible" would still be correct (speaking), if you consider that the statements could at some point be considered equalities. That is, "not level" may be easier, but if you consider that a level cue is possible, even though only in certain situations, then "as level as possible" works.

How would you describe aligning the cue otherwise? "Address the cueball with a 3 to 5 degree down angle?"--Maybe, if your student were a u-boat commander. . . .

***NOTE: Fred, after re-reading your post, prior to submitting this one, I think you mean "as level as possible" doesn't generally happen in practice. However, I contend that the operative phrase is "as possible". It just has to be realized that it's a guideline--Example: For a draw shot with the cue ball close to the cushion, the cue may have to be 'jacked up' 30 degrees. In that case, 30 degress above level is "as level as possible".

I don't beleive that, because 95% of shot's may not allow a level cue, it doesn't mean that "as level as possible" doesn't apply.



~sometimes thinks Fred may have missed a calling as a lawyer. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
============================

Chris Cass
12-05-2003, 06:23 PM
Hi Fleece,

Do yourself a favor and don't sweat the small stuff. Wait till you see the $6.00 posts. LOL You'll end up in Mantino. hahahah Oh, that's Italian for nut house. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~you make me smile.

Chris Cass
12-05-2003, 06:25 PM
Hey Jim,

Are you on the level?

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif,

C.C.

JimS
12-05-2003, 06:25 PM
Madone! (spelling?)

Fred Agnir
12-05-2003, 06:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> With those shots, it's true that most (if not all) people would not shoot truly level. Even considering the buffer space one naturally leaves between the felt (ha-ha. . ."cloth") and the knuckles/fingers/hand--even with those who grip minimally, like w/ thumb and forefinger. <hr /></blockquote>Care to tell me what that buffer distance is for you? Are you talking about 1" or 5"? 5" or more on these particular shots seem normal, if you watch in stealth.

I've watched instructors say "as level as possible" and they demonstrate "as level as possible." Then, watching them shoot while they're not instructing, what they were showing wasn't what they were doing. They're higher. Equalities still?

Fred

Voodoo Daddy
12-05-2003, 08:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Fred &lt;~~~ not advocating "jacking up" however. <hr /></blockquote>

I say Jack 'em up /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif...HAHAHAHAHAHA

randyg
12-05-2003, 08:42 PM
pooltchr: I think they missed your point completely...randyg

Qtec
12-06-2003, 12:12 AM
Of course there are limitations on how level you can get the cue. The main one being the height of your bridge.I fyour minimum bridge height is 1.5 inches,any time you aim lower than that the cue will be at an angle. It is entirely possible [and recommended] that for center/follow shots you strive to to place the cue as level as possible.

http://members.lycos.nl/agli2/hpbimg/Station_59-2003-12-06_06-22-47h_1thumb.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/agli2/hpbimg/3thumb.jpg
http://members.lycos.nl/agli2/hpbimg/Station_59-2003-12-06_06-26-31h_1thumb.jpg

http://members.lycos.nl/agli2/hpbimg/Station_59-2003-12-06_06-14-39h_1thumb.jpg
http://members.lycos.nl/agli2/hpbimg/Station_59-2003-12-06_06-15-02h_1thumb.jpg

Steve - Detroit
12-06-2003, 06:47 AM
I don't think anyone expects the cue to be dead nuts horizontal but for some of us that don't have the grooved strokes that the better players have, keeping it level is not a bad thought to have in the back of your mind. Its not like we are hitting the exact vertical centerline 100% of the time, even when that is the intention. A unwanted bit of deflection coupled with a downward stroke and suddenly we're missing shots that we should make. It's just another "swing thought", kind of like that "a" word that was talked about recently.

heater451
12-06-2003, 12:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>...I've watched instructors say "as level as possible" and they demonstrate "as level as possible." Then, watching them shoot while they're not instructing, what they were showing wasn't what they were doing. They're higher. Equalities still?

Fred <hr /></blockquote>I've never measured my "buffer distance"--but I was referring to the distance from/space between the grip hand and the cloth, so that the hand doesn't drag on the cloth. Although, I'm sure I've dragged my hand, from time to time. . . .

As for the rest of it, I'm not arguing the validity of what you are saying. I'm down to the semantics here.

With the exception of the type of shots that actually allow level cue placement, no shot will be hit with a level cue. Therefore, no one should be told to shoot "with a level cue". However, if the phrase "as level as possibile" is used, then it's acceptable.

To put it numerically, if 0 degrees (from horizontal) is considered level, but a shot only allows for the cue to be held at 15 degrees (upwards, at the butt), then that's "as level as possible".

In relation to what you're saying about instructors, that makes sense, and made me think. . . .I suppose you could say that the instruction could be, "as level as is comfortable", or even, "as level as possible, as long as it's comfortable".

I also think it makes more sense, to force a student to learn and think, "low and level", and then grow into their own preference. It seems to me that it would confuse a beginner, if you went into the details of how exactly "not level" fits into the picture.

BTW, I may have mentioned this before, but I once had a bar-league teammate, who shot jacked-up all the time. I describe it as an "archer shot": He would get behind the cue ball and line up the cue where he wanted to strike. Then, he would draw the cue backwards and upwards, pause, and without any practice strokes, shoot the ball. It seemed very "punchy" most of the time, but he also sometimes had a good follow through. The style wasn't great for getting position, but he could make most 'everyday' shots. ---My point is, "level" wasn't really a factor in his shooting form, but I couldn't imagine teaching someone to shoot that way.



===========================

pooltchr
12-08-2003, 07:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> pooltchr: I think they missed your point completely...randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe I should have just said "Keep the cue as level as possible, and the path of the tip as level as possible at the point where it makes contact with the cb". Now, if I could figure out how to draw a diagram on this thing......

Fred Agnir
12-08-2003, 09:58 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I've never measured my "buffer distance"--but I was referring to the distance from/space between the grip hand and the cloth, so that the hand doesn't drag on the cloth. Although, I'm sure I've dragged my hand, from time to time. . . .<hr /></blockquote> Yeah, that's the distance I was talking. One of the "as level as possible" people that I've discussed this many times over the net also was surprised when I asked him to tell me what that buffer distance was on shots that had the possibilities of horizontal. Upon checking, he said , " My bottom edge of my pointer finger knuckle was approx. 4" above the table bed (more than I thought it would be!) and the cue butt was closer to 5" above the surface ."

[ QUOTE ]
As for the rest of it, I'm not arguing the validity of what you are saying. I'm down to the semantics here.<hr /></blockquote> I think that's the heart of the original posters "bone to pick." The advice, IMO, is confusing and misleading because of the semantics.
[ QUOTE ]
In relation to what you're saying about instructors, that makes sense, and made me think. . . .I suppose you could say that the instruction could be, "as level as is comfortable", or even, "as level as possible, as long as it's comfortable".<hr /></blockquote> I think that's better, for sure. In fact, I know I 100% agree, since I said this previously to the above mentioned friend.


On level as possible, while being comfortable (http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=EBJg9.6691%24s76.6583%40nwrddc02.gnili nk.net&amp;oe=UTF-8&amp;output=gplain)

Great minds, and all that.

And you're right. I wouldn't want to start a student off by saying that their cue has to be X degrees elevated. But, also wouldn't want him to strive for "as level as possible" if it works against all body mechanics.

Fred &lt;~~~ in favor of a true ergonomics and biomechanics study

Qtec
12-08-2003, 11:55 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I think that's the heart of the original posters "bone to pick." The advice, IMO, is confusing and misleading because of the semantics.

<font color="red"> Whats confusing?
Buffer distance, thats confusing. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
'Level as possible'is different to each individual based on physical limitations and perception.In your example, he could have just moved his bridge hand further from the Qb and his butt hand would be lower,would it not. </font color>

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In relation to what you're saying about instructors, that makes sense, and made me think. . . .I suppose you could say that the instruction could be, "as level as is comfortable", or even, "as level as possible, as long as it's comfortable".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that's better, for sure. In fact, I know I 100% agree, since I said this previously to the above mentioned friend.
<hr /></blockquote>

What instructor ever advised a player to do something that was uncomfortable? [ apart from stretching]
To play your best you must be able to relax. If your are doing something that doesnt'fit'you, you will always struggle with your game.eg,Trying to aim equally with both eyes when you naturally are drawn to aiming with predominately one eye is a waste of time.

we cant all be an Efren or an Earl. We each have different qualities and with pool, limitations. You can only get someone to play THEIR best.
For an instuctor,its about making the best with what you've got.



Qtec


Q

Fred Agnir
12-08-2003, 12:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <font color="red"> Whats confusing?
Buffer distance, thats confusing. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif</font color><hr /></blockquote> I seemed to understand what Heater was talking about, so the idea of "buffer distance" wasn't that confusing.


[ QUOTE ]
'Level as possible'is different to each individual based on physical limitations and perception. p<hr /></blockquote> Isn't the fact that your definition and other people's definition don't necessarily agree the reason for the "semantics confusion" that we're discussing? Are you trying to say that there is no semantic confusion? Why wouldn't "as level as possible" mean "horizontal if possible"?

[ QUOTE ]
What instructor ever advised a player to do something that was uncomfortable? <hr /></blockquote> I don't know. Why do you ask? Nobody said they did, did they?

Fred

Rod
12-08-2003, 01:46 PM
Steve,

The concept is easy enough to understand, there is some nit picking on this thread so I'll add my own. I'd add the tip distance to c/b at address. It is common to see a tip well over an inch from the c/b and the lower arm forward of 90 degrees at address. Unless a maneuver is made, on a true pendulum stroke the tip will strike below the intended aim point. If that is any english (which is a farther travel than center ball) it gets even worst. If maxium low is used it can end up being a miscue, (so there is a maneuver). /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

The level as possible is one thing, and important. The tip distance at address is another and many times overlooked. I think both are from being to casual at basic fundamentals. Get the cue near 90 degrees with the tip much closer to the c/b, at least strive for 1/2" or slightly better. When they trust their stroke and basic fundamental set-up it's not hard to achieve that position. How many people check in "that" position? LOL As a foot note, many will feel the need to (as a general term) obtain cue speed earlier and release sooner. That is because their timed release point (if it existed) might have been at least one inch later but many times a lot more. Just some food for thought.

Rod

pooltchr
12-08-2003, 03:17 PM
Good point Rod. Notice how everything builds on the fundamentals. Using Set Pause Finish/Freeze, I try to teach players to have the tip about 1/4 inch from the cb at the Set position. This is the point where you are looking for that 90 degrees from the cue. You are correct in that if you set up too far back, the upward motion of the grip hand will force the tip to drop by the time it reaches the cb.
Until the fundamentals are correct, nothing else matters.
Good point!

Scott Lee
12-09-2003, 05:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> When they trust their stroke

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

Hey buddy...That's MY line! LOL I'll be expecting my royalty check soon! LMAO

Seriously, you make an excellent point, that I see continually in the students that I work with. It is very important to become comfortable with addressing the CB, with the tip CLOSE...1/2 inch at worst, and 1/4 inch is better yet! Good point, Rod!

Scott

Rod
12-09-2003, 11:56 AM
Geez Scott I can't sneek one in anywhere. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Your checks in the mail! ha ha Yep it should be very close but I was taking it easy on those that had a real long distance. For some, they were already well into the follow thru and had not hit the c/b yet!

Rod

Buzzsaw
12-09-2003, 12:55 PM
I've always thought that the intent to keep a cue stick level was not based on keeping it level with the table but to keep from rocking the cue up and down. I'm sure everyone has tried, or heard of, stroking a cue inside a bottle for practice. Again the intent is not to be level with the table but to keep the stick straight.