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View Full Version : Players Jilting Pool for Poker -- a Trend?



NH_Steve
12-06-2003, 07:21 AM
I know pool and poker have flirted with each other for years, and there have always been many, many talented action oriented pool players that had serious poker habits; and with the proliferation of river & tribal casinos I've lost some opponents to the casinos before, but something is definitely happening lately with the explosion of poker to TV and the internet, and it is not good for pool action, IMHO. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif I know many pool players play lots of poker, yet still maintain a strong interest in pool, and for some of those the cards distraction probably stunted their promising pool talent a bit -- but you can often still find them in pool rooms -- even though they might be sitting at the card table when you do /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif What I am concerned about is what appears to be the growing number of pool players that have practically abandoned pool to focus on cards. I could name names of specific players I was playing regularly up until about the last 6 months or year, that have gotten hooked on cards and disappeared. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif Now I'm wondering if many of the casual young male pool players that seem to have disappeared in droves from the rooms around here have run off to play poker -- and are we ever going to get them back...

Note: Pool & Billiards industry big shots -- do you have a plan for this (please tell me it is more than just going into the card & card table business!)?

I fear this could be a trend -- and one that could seriously threaten the pool industry and pool community (that's us, dudes -- we need a vibrant pool community to find the poolrooms and the competition /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ). Of course, maybe it opens up some new sponsorship doors, as I'm also noticing more and more casino-type sponsorship deals for pool players.

What do you all think?

Chris Cass
12-06-2003, 07:55 AM
Hi Steve,

As casinos pop up more and more you'll see this happening more and more. Poker is the only game that you can make a living in the casino. It's highly addictive and fun. There's money in it to boot. Poker players never get stiffed when they win. Still the adrenlin rush is there too.

Because pool players like to gamble the casino sponsors many events. The Indian casinos recognize this and like to help with the events. In order to cash your check after the tourney you have to go into the casino. To play the event you must walk through the casino. The casino only want the chance to flirt with you. The rest is up to human nature and the suttle mind games of decore, exciting sounds and sexy cocktail waitresses. Not that I look, I'm married. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.

dg-in-centralpa
12-06-2003, 10:57 AM
Unfortunately World Series of Poker was falling on league nights. Some of us would watch the TV until it was time for us to shoot. Who doesn't dream of playing and betting 500K on a bluff and win. I do. I can't imagine playing for those kinds of pots. I play poker once a month with a couple guys I know and go to the casinos 2 - 3 times a year. I love to gamble but I do know my limits. This hasn't slowed my interest in pool but I can imagine where it could. There is very little hustling in poker.
DG - just my 2c

jungledude51
12-06-2003, 01:16 PM
I'd just like to say that poker has virtually ruined pool in the greater New Orleans area. Guys that once were pool gambling fanatics like Jerome Gambino, Flyboy, Tennaco, and Ricky P. are all sitting across from each other every night at Harrah's casino. This wouldn't bother me if they were doing well, but the $100 an hour rake keeps them all busted and none is smart enough to realize it. What a shame, the money used to circulate among the pool hall guys, now it all gets shipped back across state lines to Neveda. If you love pool action, keep the casinos away from your area... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif <font color="blue"> </font color>

SRpool
12-06-2003, 04:09 PM
Poker has absolutely killed the pool action around Chicago. Everyone has seen it on TV and now they are all champion poker players. You can walk in all of the pool rooms trying to find pool action only to hear a majority of people say they are going to a card game and it is more action than pool. And it is not only the male players that are getting into poker. Many of the women are playing it too. But for my sake, since I don't play poker, PLEASE people, start playing pool again /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Sarah

PoolFan
12-07-2003, 08:01 PM
Steve, I've noticed this trend up here in the northeast since the early to mid 90's. Many top pool players in MA, RI and CT have found it too hard to make a living at pool once they reach a certain level (top A to open status). To make that jump to Open status and make reasonable money, you have to put in a lot of hard work and still not guaranteed anything.

I think they go to Foxwood and Mohegan Sun and start to play poker. Another grind for the cash, but there is always action at the casinos. A top pool player in a small area has a more difficult time getting a game. Ask any top player about how much action they get in MA, RI and CT. MA used to be great, but where is everyone now?

I agree with you that it's very unfortunate for pool. But pool doesn't help the players in the long run.

NH_Steve
12-07-2003, 08:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PoolFan:</font><hr>
I think they go to Foxwood and Mohegan Sun and start to play poker. Another grind for the cash, but there is always action at the casinos. A top pool player in a small area has a more difficult time getting a game. Ask any top player about how much action they get in MA, RI and CT. MA used to be great, but where is everyone now?

I agree with you that it's very unfortunate for pool. But pool doesn't help the players in the long run. <hr /></blockquote>Like the casinos help the players ??? I'm no expert on cards, but isn't it alot easier to lose big money quick at cards than at pool? At pool, you can easily change your opponent or you can maybe negotiate some kind of spot to possibly get into a situation where the odds are more favorable to you -- at a casino the odds pretty much always favor the casino, that's why they always take your money in the long run, right?

JPB
12-07-2003, 08:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote NH_Steve:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote PoolFan:</font><hr>
I think they go to Foxwood and Mohegan Sun and start to play poker. Another grind for the cash, but there is always action at the casinos. A top pool player in a small area has a more difficult time getting a game. Ask any top player about how much action they get in MA, RI and CT. MA used to be great, but where is everyone now?

I agree with you that it's very unfortunate for pool. But pool doesn't help the players in the long run. <hr /></blockquote>Like the casinos help the players ??? I'm no expert on cards, but isn't it alot easier to lose big money quick at cards than at pool? At pool, you can easily change your opponent or you can maybe negotiate some kind of spot to possibly get into a situation where the odds are more favorable to you -- at a casino the odds pretty much always favor the casino, that's why they always take your money in the long run, right? <hr /></blockquote>

In poker you are playing the other players. What makes poker a better gambling game for a skilled player is that you don't have to spot anybody and the bad players often don't know they are that bad. You can lose huge amounts in poker if you aren't a good player. And you might not know you are a bad player. If you are playing Efren you know you can't win so you pull up or get more weight. In poker, people think they can win if they can just catch some cards, etc... Their irrationality and superstition and ignorance dooms them to failure. But they think they have a shot so they stay at it and lose more than they would in a game like pool. It is not easy at all to make a living at poker. But it is easier to make a living at it than at pool, and much easier to make a little. Not many players can make a solid middle class wage in public cardrooms. (50-100K per year) But some do. My guess is a lot of people pick up maybe 10 or 15K as a hobby. In poker the edges are small for a good player though, so some bankroll is required to fade the standard deviation. Also, tournament poker is not a good way to try to make a living.

Troy
12-07-2003, 09:01 PM
The conversation is about playing poker with cards, not Casino table games or slots. The Casino is not even involved in the game except as dealer and taking their slice of each pot.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote NH_Steve:</font><hr>Like the casinos help the players ??? I'm no expert on cards, but isn't it alot easier to lose big money quick at cards than at pool? At pool, you can easily change your opponent or you can maybe negotiate some kind of spot to possibly get into a situation where the odds are more favorable to you -- at a casino the odds pretty much always favor the casino, that's why they always take your money in the long run, right? <hr /></blockquote>

Scott Lee
12-08-2003, 05:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JPB:</font><hr> Not many players can make a solid middle class wage in public cardrooms. (50-100K per year) But some do. <hr /></blockquote>

John...That might be "middle class income" for an attorney, but in states like ours (ID, MT, WY, SD, ND) $50K-$100K is top echelon income. The median income in these states is way under $50,000! Now in the cities across the country, I would agree that those numbers relate to the "middle class"...just not out where you and I live!

Scott Lee

12-08-2003, 03:12 PM

Fred Agnir
12-08-2003, 03:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> ESPN has been playing replays after replays after replays of the World Series of Poker lately.

Sh*t, at a meeting with the huskie owners, one guy who had probably never seen a pool table in his life remarked about how he had been watching poker on TV a lot and how much he enjoyed it.

At this point I have to ask myself and the CCBers if the 'seedy' side of things isn't so bad after all. Here we are trying to clean pool up because this is part of what we think will make pool take off, and what takes the front seat is poker!!<hr /></blockquote>I guess you'll have to explain to me the leap from "poker on TV" to "seedy."

Is there anything in the WSP or WPT that reeks of seediness, IYO? It seems to me that they're trying to legitimize the game.

Fred

JPB
12-08-2003, 09:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote JPB:</font><hr> Not many players can make a solid middle class wage in public cardrooms. (50-100K per year) But some do. <hr /></blockquote>

John...That might be "middle class income" for an attorney, but in states like ours (ID, MT, WY, SD, ND) $50K-$100K is top echelon income. The median income in these states is way under $50,000! Now in the cities across the country, I would agree that those numbers relate to the "middle class"...just not out where you and I live!

Scott Lee

<hr /></blockquote>


Yeah, but public poker room pros pretty much need to live in Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Bay area, Atlantic City. That's where a selection of public games at decent limits are. I suppose there are some in the other places around the country that have some games like phoenix or albuquerque. Making 50 K with no benefits puts you behind many middle class workers in those areas. Not many public game players can earn 75-100 on a consistent basis for several years. Some can. You also need to maintain a pretty decent bankroll to stay in the game. You can find a lot of good poker players driving cabs in Las Vegas or going back home to get a job. Others who do survive really don't live all that well.



P.S. no matter what the democrats say when they propose a tax increase on "rich" Americans earning 100 K or more a year, 100K is middle class. Better lifestyle and maybe more security than many in the middle class, but it is still middle class. IMO, to get from middle class to upper class you need a whole lot more. Earned income of 100 is still just solid middle class, although it goes farther in some places than others.

12-09-2003, 10:41 AM

Steve Lipsky
12-09-2003, 10:57 AM
I'm sorry, WW, but this is the craziest post I have seen in a long, long time.

- Steve

Eric.
12-09-2003, 01:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> I'm sorry, WW, but this is the craziest post I have seen in a long, long time.

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

I agree Steve. It reminds me of n email I got; there's alot of truth in a joke....


&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Deductive Reasoning
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Neighbor 1: "Hi, there, new
&gt; neighbor, it sure is a nice day to be &gt;moving"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;New Neighbor: "Yes, it is and
&gt; people around here seem extremely &gt;friendly"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Neighbor 1: "So what is it you do
&gt; for a living?"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;New Neighbor: "I am a professor at the University, I teach deductive
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;reasoning"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Neighbor 1: "Deductive reasoning,
&gt; what is that?
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;"New Neighbor: "Let me give you and example. I see you have a dog house &gt;&gt;&gt;out
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;back. By that I deduce that you
&gt; have a dog."
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Neighbor 1: "That is right"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;New Neighbor: "The fact that you
&gt; have a dog,
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Leads me to deduce that you have a
&gt; family.
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Neighbor 1: "Right again"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;New Neighbor: "Since you have a
&gt; family I deduce that you have a wife"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Neighbor 1: "Correct"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;New Neighbor: "And since you have a wife, I can deduce that you are
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;heterosexual"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Neighbor 1: "Yup"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;New Neighbor: "That is deductive
&gt; reasoning"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Neighbor 1: "Cool"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Later that same day
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Neighbor 1: "Hey, I was talking to that new guy who moved in next door"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Neighbor 2: "Is he a nice guy?"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Neighbor 1: "Yes, and he has an
&gt; interesting job"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Neighbor 2: "Oh, yeah what does he do?"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Neighbor 1: "He is a professor of
&gt; deductive reasoning at the University"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Neighbor 2: "Deductive reasoning,
&gt; what is that"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Neighbor 1: "Let me give you an
&gt; example. Do you have a dog house?"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Neighbor 2: "No"
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Neighbor 1: "Fag."



Eric &gt; /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

AuntyDan
12-09-2003, 06:04 PM
Funny, my dad, who is a life-long Poker player who's never played Pool, always said "The Hustler" was the best movie about Poker ever made.

HOWARD
12-09-2003, 06:28 PM
Poker and pool and second cousins of sorts. They both
have gambling.

I have played both and enjoy both. However there is poker
that is each person at table have a stake and they risk that.

And there is tourament poker a little different kettle of fish.Money to enter and units bet until broke moving up. etc.

In poker one has to look out for the "mechanic" He is
different then a hustler in the fact the hustler is using
a con and taking some one money.

The mechanic is flat out cheating.

I believe that poker is a fad. In my salad days all the
strong pool players work and shot pool all week. Then about
Saturday morning two am - you see them talking about the poneys and heading for the track on saturday. Back to the grind on Sunday.

So let it ride out because pool is more exciting than poker to watch - even when you see the whole cards.

It kind like chess against checkers.

12-10-2003, 10:38 AM

Wally_in_Cincy
12-10-2003, 10:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> I guess I am old fashioned. I associate casinos with the Mafia. I associate poker with gambling. Maybe they are trying to clean up the game of poker as you say, but I still have a hangup on the Mafia running the whole thing behind the scenes....

<hr /></blockquote>

It's not quite like the old days. Most of the big gaming companies are now publicly traded.

except for the Indians.

Eric.
12-10-2003, 03:06 PM
In case you haven't noticed, we live in Mafia/Cosa Nostra/Triad/Russian Mob/etc land. It's not like we're living in some off-the-beaten-path DC suburb, watching reruns of Casino, and making assumptions. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Yes, I know, I know, the Mob did have an influence over Vegas, years ago. I'm not blind to that. Things have changed. I try not to jump to conclusions or make assumptions. I don't usually buy into Conspiracy theories either. WW, I'm not sure how well you know Vegas or how many times you've been there(once?) but this post sounds like your typical WW arrogant, condescending, know-it-all response from you (I guess I could have sugar coated that a little...) I'm curious about what fact you are basing this opinion on?


Eric &gt;putting my foil cap back on

eg8r
12-10-2003, 03:19 PM
ROFL. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

eg8r

Kato
12-10-2003, 03:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>Eric &gt;putting my foil cap back on <hr /></blockquote>

Drat's, foiled again. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Kato

RedHell
12-11-2003, 08:37 AM
WW,

Tho I can understand why you associate Vegas or casino's with organized crime, there is a few things, I believe, you are ignoring. What is the interest of the "Mafia" in casino's ? Initially, it was a great cash business that allowed a few things... Mainly, money laundering (SP?)...

A cash business is a great way to launder money. You can use revenue from criminal activities and inject it in the casino and declare them as casino revenue and therefore it has become legal money. Mostly, bars and other cash business were used, with the arrival of Casino's, they (the Mafia) were getting it all together in the same operation; Bars, Casinos and a town to run criminal activities; sex, drugs and alcohol (Vegas).

But time have changed, the government has learned how casinos operate, the Nevada gambling commission was created to control the legal gambling activities. Measures were put in place to stop organized crime to launder money using the big cash business (Casinos).

Nowadays, Casinos are legit money making machine. So we see the big corporation getting involved and building huge entertainment resorts. The Vegas of the old days isn't the Vegas that we see now and will never be the Vegas of the future.

Adding to your comment about Mafia in pool. Like I tried to explain, organized crime is interested by cash business to lauder crime's revenue. There isn't enough cash in Pool for them to even lift an eyebrow at it...

12-11-2003, 10:48 AM

Eric.
12-11-2003, 11:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> this post sounds like your typical WW arrogant, condescending, know-it-all response from you (I guess I could have sugar coated that a little...) I'm curious about what fact you are basing this opinion on?


Eric &gt;putting my foil cap back on <hr /></blockquote>

If you will reread my post and responses, I am not basing ANYTHING on fact, just a 'gut feeling'.

<font color="red">So you were talkin outta your Ass? </font color>

I just hope you don't put me into the same category as you did Fast Larry LOL.
<font color="red">Of couse not. While you're just a bit of a jackass, he's completely out of line </font color>

Weren't you the one who almost duked it out with Fast in Valley Forge?

<font color="red">When FL calls certain hands, he's gotta expect to get called on his bluff </font color>

Come visit us in Germantown and I will have Bluewolf give you a free psyche examination.
<font color="red">She may need one too, I'll split the bill with her </font color>

Take care Eric,

WW

PS You should stop picking on us old folks. We can be pretty dangerous with our canes, years of karate experience <font color="red">you mean FL's 360 degree Black Belt /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color> ,
whatever. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>


You take care too. Although I think you are a bit of an arrogant jackass that thinks he plays better than he does, I don't have any bones to pick with you.


Eric &gt;jus tellin it like it is