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Sid_Vicious
12-07-2003, 12:34 PM
Ok, let's say you have a small chip tournament, a quarter of the field is deep then it shallows quickly in talent. It is obvious to me that it's best for the intermediate player to lag in the time they play, especially if the tournament is winding down, because whoever loses fastest during the down-select from the 4th place guy and the third place guy(pays 3-deep), just due to time alone, possibly makes it beneficial for you to ponder shots much "better" if you know what I mean. Seriously, Godzilla is on table 2, playing #4, gonna win, just a matter of pure time. Also playing slowly, but still not obvious allows the the top dogs to bite the tails off of each other faster, hence thinning the top talent for the home stretch.

How do you perceive this observation and practice? Is it perfectly usable and ethical, or is it chicken-S???sid

Ken
12-07-2003, 01:08 PM
You're not going to alter the flow chart by playing slow, you'll just make your next opponent wait longer. I don't see how it makes any difference.

You can play slow and some players will get knocked out while you're playing. You can play fast and sit around waiting while the same ones get knocked out while you're waiting.
KenCT

Troy
12-07-2003, 01:23 PM
I was thinking the same as Ken... How would speed of play determine your next opponent ??? That should be determined by the draw. Makes be wonder which horse the TD has in the race ???

Troy

NH_Steve
12-07-2003, 01:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Ok, let's say you have a small chip tournament, a quarter of the field is deep then it shallows quickly in talent. It is obvious to me that it's best for the intermediate player to lag in the time they play, especially if the tournament is winding down, because whoever loses fastest during the down-select from the 4th place guy and the third place guy(pays 3-deep), just due to time alone, possibly makes it beneficial for you to ponder shots much "better" if you know what I mean. Seriously, Godzilla is on table 2, playing #4, gonna win, just a matter of pure time. Also playing slowly, but still not obvious allows the the top dogs to bite the tails off of each other faster, hence thinning the top talent for the home stretch.

How do you perceive this observation and practice? Is it perfectly usable and ethical, or is it chicken-S???sid <hr /></blockquote>Huh? Payout is based on how deep you go in the bracket; i.e. what round you get knocked out of the tourney, not what time of day/night you lose. In a standard double elimination bracket, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th are clearly determined by bracket position, 5-6 are tied, 7-8 are tied, 9-12 tied, etc, etc. The tied positions are never broken by what order the games finished in.

Bottom line -- play your best speed, it makes no difference whatsoever where you finish -- except if you are too slow, the tourney directors won't like it...

SPetty
12-07-2003, 06:48 PM
Guys, Sid is talking about a chip tournament, not a "normal" double elimination tournament. I really don't know the details, other than the last guys with chips are the winners. So, if one game finishes earlier than another game, and that guy gives up his chip earlier than the other guy, then the slower guy still has his chip when the other guy loses his chip.

Nostroke
12-07-2003, 07:06 PM
That type of format is just begging for problems.

If you play other than your normal speed, you are pulling a move and if you dont you probably can't win. If you feel good about that play, otherwise i think you should sit those type of tournaments out.

smfsrca
12-07-2003, 07:23 PM
What is a "small chip tournament"?
What does "a quarter of the field is deep" mean?
What does "down-select" mean?

Perhaps understanding these terms can shed some light on your question.

Steve - Detroit
12-07-2003, 08:27 PM
Didn't want to appear too dumb by not knowing what a "chip tournament" was. Since others appear to be in my position I now have to ask, Can someone detail how a chip tournament works, I have never heard of one? (just trying to learn something, as usual).

JimS
12-07-2003, 08:31 PM
I don't know how they work either and it looks like I'm better off not knowing and just saying no if offered /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

PQQLK9
12-07-2003, 09:40 PM
I'm no expert but the "Chip Tournaments" that I have played in were ...You pay $10.00 and get 10 Chips and turn in a Chip for each game lost. Last one with a Chip WINS!

Sid_Vicious
12-07-2003, 10:55 PM
The rotation happens without organization, in real time as winners win, no matter what time is involved. I've played the same guy as many as 4 times straight and then I play some of them not at all. Time IMO is a factor in this little tournament....sid

Sid_Vicious
12-07-2003, 11:12 PM
Yea that's it. If the payout is to 3rd and you yourself are in a game holding one last chip while the only other guy playing on one chip is battling with the world beater in the thing, it is easily possible to over study your shots on purpose and simply win due to the guy losing his last chip before you do, and I'm not talking about obvious stalling, subtle really. I don't think anyone's using that tactic(yet) but it makes you think a bit. Cash is cash...sid

Tom_In_Cincy
12-08-2003, 12:51 AM
Sid,

The only way to prevent this from ever happening is playing ONE round at a time. If there are 10 players, 5 games, 5 losers.

Scott Lee
12-08-2003, 05:32 AM
Actually Tom, that's not true. I'm the one who originally posted about "chip tournaments", having run them here in MT several times now. They are very popular, as each match is a race to 1, meaning anyone can win. I have always paid 50% of the the field, not just top 3 or 4. In my tournaments, you pay $10, and get 5 chips (we also add $200 to the pot). Higher skilled players give back 1 chip immediately, and lower skilled players get an extra chip (this is determined by the TD). The majority play with 5. The draw is random, and all players are assigned an identifying code (A, B, C, etc.). All players are up on the chart (which looks nothing like a DE bracket), so they know what table they will first play on, and how long until their first match. If you have 50 players, and 8 tables, some people will end up waiting a while to play their first match...but play continues fairly rapidly, and everyone gets to play a minimum of 5 matches. Winners stay on the assigned table, and wait for their next opponent to be sent to them. Losers turn in a chip, and are assigned another match on another table. This exact issue of dragging your feet became viable in the tournament last year, so we implemented a shot clock rule to eliminate better players from slow play, trying to make sure they got higher in the chart (presumably to try to win more $$$). The thing is, there is very little difference in $$$ between the top 10 places, so in my tournaments, this has not been that big of a deal. I have never had the problem Sid described, of having someone play the same person over and over. They might play them again later on, but never game after game.
In the last tournament, we changed things a little, so that each match won was worth a specific dollar amount. This ensured that rather than just paying a percentage of the field, EVERYONE who won at least 1 match, got paid something. Obviously, the person winning the most matches got the most money. All in all, everyone gets to play a lot of pool for their $10, and a good time is had by all!

Scott Lee

ras314
12-08-2003, 06:49 AM
In the small chip tournament I play in it doesn't make any difference how long a game lasts. You play on one table until you lose, then wait in line for the next table. If you take a really long time it just means there will be a long line waiting for the table. Here there are three tables, when the field gets down to three players with one chip each it is a playoff. Never quite figured out the alogrithm who plays who when it gets down to the last few players.

Usually only worth $40 or so to win so is mostly just a fun thing.

Sid_Vicious
12-08-2003, 08:36 AM
Scott...I'm not sure just how the cards fall in this format but I've not been the only one to finish the day saying "I had to play TJ 4 times straigth." Granted there are also days when I never even play a guy or two, where the luck of the draws paid off. I frankly find it a hoot to play in this deal though, you should schedule it next trip you come to Dallas,,,happens every Saturday afternoon at Skillman. Fun bunch of people!!!sid

UTAddb
12-08-2003, 09:31 AM
Sid- I assume you're talking about TJ Davis, I seem to draw him all the time too!

Rod
12-08-2003, 01:56 PM
Sid,

You posted this like everyone knew what a chip tournament is. In all my years/travels, never hear of one. As I read farther, I now know. Never heard of one ever happening out here. Something is clearly wrong with the tourney format if a stall pays more money. I thought it was suppose to be about the game but I do know where a loop-hole exists people will abuse the system. It happens in every day life jobs etc, but that doesn't make it right.

Rod

SPetty
12-08-2003, 02:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> You posted this like everyone knew what a chip tournament is. <hr /></blockquote>Rod, I only knew what little I knew because it had been posted to CCB and described here before. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
12-08-2003, 02:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr>
...Is it perfectly usable and ethical, or is it chicken-S???sid <hr /></blockquote>

chicken-S

But the bigger problem is obviously the format of the tourney. Who thought that up anyway?

Wally_in_Cincy
12-08-2003, 02:15 PM
Sounds more like a "bull-chip" tournament /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

couldn't resist.

ras314
12-08-2003, 10:49 PM
"I had to play TJ 4 times straigth."

Odd, we had a TJ here (Silver City) who was one of the better players.

So if I beat TJ he goes to the next table. Then if he holds that table and I lose the next game I will play him after that. But no way could there be straight games with him. Must be a different format.

This is the most fun tournament I've played, even if it is a 200 mi round trip.

Scott Lee
12-09-2003, 04:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>

But the bigger problem is obviously the format of the tourney. Who thought that up anyway? <hr /></blockquote>

Now, now, Wally! Don't be too quick to bash something you haven't tried! The format is what makes the tournaments fun. All matches are a race to 1, so even good players can lose a match. We've always played 8-ball in my tournaments. I first saw this concept in Atlanta, a few years ago (that person had seen it played in Albuquerque, NM). I thought it was interesting, and asked the TD to send me the info on how to run it. I've done it 5 times since then, and EVERY player loves playing this tournament.
Since we implemented the "match pay" idea last summer, it is even more popular. We get all manner of players, from the local runout kings (and queens), to the dead beginners.
It's a good time, as ras314 described, and more about just playing a lot of pool, then winning substancial prize money.
With 50 players in the last one, the winner made about $150 (out of $700 total prize $$$...$500 entries + $200 added).
I've even had people drive 300 miles just to play in these events.

Scott Lee

Wally_in_Cincy
12-09-2003, 07:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
Now, now, Wally! Don't be too quick to bash something you haven't tried! ..... <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe the format you use can not be manipulated like this:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr>...playing slowly, but still not obvious allows the the top dogs to bite the tails off of each other faster, hence thinning the top talent for the home stretch.<hr /></blockquote>

I see the above scenario as a problem.

Each round should not start until everyone is finished with their game.

Sid_Vicious
12-09-2003, 12:30 PM
There is a tabulation of games played out beside each player's stats as time goes on, so it isn't an easily abused system. The thing is though that someone with the analytical pre-thought during the late rounds "could" utilize time segments, but I've not seen it being done nor used it to my advantage yet. This is a new tournament and meant for fun, but it does get stressful at times when the luck of the draw gets you playing the toughest player(s) consecutively, while you may never play a couple of the others. I personally find it a benefit to get to stack up with a killer player, I'd never get their time without gambling for something steep otherwise. I'll keep playing for sure, it's just too much fun...sid

ras314
12-09-2003, 12:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>

We've always played 8-ball in my tournaments. I first saw this concept in Atlanta, a few years ago (that person had seen it played in Albuquerque, NM). I thought it was interesting, and asked the TD to send me the info on how to run it.
Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>
The TD here in Silver claims he got the format from someone on the east coast, then gave it to the guy in Albuquerque. Something about a copyright or some such. Now if they would add some to the pot like you do it would be even more fun. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I first went because it was 9 ball. There are old bar bangers around here that never played anything but 8 ball in their lives.

Wally_in_Cincy
12-09-2003, 12:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr>
....The thing is though that someone with the analytical pre-thought during the late rounds "could" utilize time segments.....

<font color="blue">If the format was truly fair this would not be a possibility. </font color>


....I personally find it a benefit to get to stack up with a killer player, I'd never get their time without gambling for something steep otherwise. <hr /></blockquote>

I know the feeling. Maybe a better format would be a "line" tournament. I think TomCincy started this years ago and it has become a Saturday afternoon tradition. Described below by me in an old post:

"Every week at SnookerS in Cincy they have a line tournament. It's an interesting format. Let's say you have 16 players. You use 8 tables and you spread the players out according to known ability. The best 2 players on table 1, the next best 2 players on table 2 etc.

Everybody starts playing at the same time then when the first game is finished everybody moves.

If you win you move up one table (unless you win on table 1).

If you lose you move down one table (unless you lose on table 8).

Then you repeat the process for 3 hours. So you basically end up playing players of similar ability, but a variety of players nonetheless. It's great practice. They can usually get in about 18 rounds of 8-ball or 24 rounds of 9-ball. Whoever ends the day with the most wins gets the dough. "