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Troy
12-07-2003, 05:42 PM
I was watching a bit of 7-Ball on ESPN earlier today. More than once, Allen Hopkins made reference to an "unforced error". Could someone please explain this term as it relates to Pool/Billiards or was Hopkins just enjoying hearing his voice.
Seems to there would/could be a winner or an error.
By the way, the term "unforced error" has never made any sense to me in Tennis either.


Troy...~~~ Thanks for letting me vent.

NH_Steve
12-07-2003, 06:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> I was watching a bit of 7-Ball on ESPN earlier today. More than once, Allen Hopkins made reference to an "unforced error". Could someone please explain this term as it relates to Pool/Billiards or was Hopkins just enjoying hearing his voice.
Seems to there would/could be a winner or an error.
By the way, the term "unforced error" has never made any sense to me in Tennis either.


Troy...~~~ Thanks for letting me vent.
<hr /></blockquote>I like the term unforced error for pool quite a bit myself. I interpret it as noting when the shooter makes a mistake that gives their opponent an opportunity, yet the shooter was in no trouble prior to the ill-fated shot (as opposed to coughing up a shot when your opponent has left you a very tough situation, for example). As I listen to commentators that use the term, they do not tend to apply it to a common miss of a miss-able shot or a common sellout from a difficult situation, rather they reserve the term for mistakes such as <ul type="square"> a pocket scratch hooking yourself a miscue shooting into a 'kiss' that causes a sellout blowing an easy safety thus leaving a sellout blowing a really easy shot due to lack of concentration[/list] I play mostly One Pocket, and there are tons of examples of unforced errors in that game -- which is partly why it is often said 'it is a game more often lost than won'.

I believe the Accu-stats rating system actually takes those unforced errors into their calculation, and they have a clear list or definition of them -- but I don't know where they keep that info /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

UTAddb
12-07-2003, 06:41 PM
I agree with Steve and for tennis an unforced error would be like a double fault of an easy volley at the net. Shots there's no reason to miss, as opposed to your opponent giving you a very difficult shot to return.

Vapros
12-07-2003, 07:27 PM
I think in tennis the meaning is pretty obvious. You lose a point by hitting into the net or out of bounds because of a poor stroke, rather than because of a good play by your opponent.

It's not quite as easy to define in pool. I believe it would describe a lost opportunity or a sellout - again through a poor stroke rather than because your opponent earned the advantage by leaving the cue ball in a tough location. It could be called a 'forced error' if it resulted from having to shoot a long shot with the cue ball frozen on the head rail, for example.

I play one-pocket with a guy who labels all his mistakes as 'unforced errors', because he can't stand to credit me with a good play.

Troy
12-07-2003, 08:07 PM
You and others have provided excellent examples of errors. It still reads like the use of unforced
is superfluous. If a shot is missed that should be made it's simply an error.

Yes, 1-Pocket is lot like chess. Chess is one of very few games that can only be lost due to an opponent's error.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote NH_Steve:</font><hr>
I like the term unforced error for pool quite a bit myself. I interpret it as noting when the shooter makes a mistake that gives their opponent an opportunity, yet the shooter was in no trouble prior to the ill-fated shot (as opposed to coughing up a shot when your opponent has left you a very tough situation, for example). As I listen to commentators that use the term, they do not tend to apply it to a common miss of a miss-able shot or a common sellout from a difficult situation, rather they reserve the term for mistakes such as <ul type="square"> a pocket scratch hooking yourself a miscue shooting into a 'kiss' that causes a sellout blowing an easy safety thus leaving a sellout blowing a really easy shot due to lack of concentration[/list] I play mostly One Pocket, and there are tons of examples of unforced errors in that game -- which is partly why it is often said 'it is a game more often lost than won'.

I believe the Accu-stats rating system actually takes those unforced errors into their calculation, and they have a clear list or definition of them -- but I don't know where they keep that info /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Vapros
12-07-2003, 09:44 PM
I would differ with you about this. Missing a shot that should be made (whether it is a shot at your pocket or a defensive play) would qualify as an 'unforced error'. If you play one-pocket, you are aware that some failed shots are 'forced' by your opponent's play. Many times I have been left in a spot where I could not find anything positive to do. Sometimes it's bad luck, but more often it is a good play by the other guy.

Maybe it would be clearer to you to change the term to 'unforced miss', and not apply the word 'error' to pool at all. Just a matter of preference.

rukiddingme
12-07-2003, 10:40 PM
allow me to clarify the meaning of the terms as it relates to tennis, pool and life in general;
unforced error = you fu--ed up all by yourself...
forced error = your opponent caused you to f--k up...
/ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
ruk

NH_Steve
12-08-2003, 06:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> You and others have provided excellent examples of errors. It still reads like the use of unforced
is superfluous. If a shot is missed that should be made it's simply an error.

Yes, 1-Pocket is lot like chess. Chess is one of very few games that can only be lost due to an opponent's error.

Troy
<hr /></blockquote>Troy, every time you come to the table in pool, you face some degree of challenge to select &amp; execute 'the right shot' successfully. Sometimes the layout &amp; shots are easy (you know, the 'Ray Charles' runout opp's that your opponent seems to always get /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I think the 'unforced' part is just to especially distinguish the act of coughing up a sellout when you were in no apparent trouble vs when there was a tough enough situation that a player with a given skill level would be expected to naturally falter frequently.

For intermediate to advanced pool players, a big part of improving your game is to learn to read the situation &amp; use good judgment selecting either a shot or safety that falls within your ability to execute -- the more you can do that, the more better chance you have of controling the table, and hence the game (assuming you are matched up against another player of reasonably similar shooting skills -- it still ain't gonna work against Efren /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

JMHO

by the way, in science, I think they have a technical difference in definition between error &amp; mistake, where 'error' is the intrinsic and fairly predictable variation in accuracy depending on your sampling equipment &amp; technique, etc., whereas 'mistake' is a friggin screw up that really messes up data and cannot be predictably accounted for. Therefore you could argue that the pool world is using the wrong word -- what an 'unforced error' is, in fact, a 'mistake' /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

NH_Steve
12-08-2003, 06:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rukiddingme:</font><hr> allow me to clarify the meaning of the terms as it relates to tennis, pool and life in general;
unforced error = you fu--ed up all by yourself...
forced error = your opponent caused you to f--k up...
/ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
ruk

<hr /></blockquote> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif