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Keith Talent
12-11-2003, 12:32 AM
Over the past year since I started playing again, I've been observing both what good players and the pros seem to like in a cue, and also what seems to work for me. No doubt there are plenty of other factors that make up the quality of a cue's hit, but I'd like to focus on the joint here.

My question is ... I read a lot of posts here rapping the typical stainless joint. I started off with a couple of cues with 'em and found them OK, but over the past few months, I've come to prefer the wood-to-wood thump of my sneaky (not with a wood screw or wooden threads, mind you, but flat-faced) to the kind of harsh, pingy feel of what was my regular cue, with a stainless joint.

So ... I get the feeling a lot of good players here prefer something other than SS, maybe phenolic, maybe wood-to-wood ... but how come I don't see many (any?) pros using wood-to-wood? Is there a loss of accuracy, maybe power, that could make the difference at that level? For myself, if I were to upgrade, I suppose I'd gravitate toward the Schuler joint ... or some other custom wood joint. Pros and cons?

tateuts
12-11-2003, 02:08 AM
Hi Keith,

The rap on stainless is the balance issue - the tendancy to add weight to the front of the cue. I think a well built cue can have a great hit with any number of joint styles. Ivory is another great hitting joint and it's popular with the better players. But it is hard to beat a wood-to-wood joint with an ivory ferrule.

My Scruggs has a unique 3/8 X 10 piloted stainless joint with a radial pin and ivory ferrules. The hit is terrific - no ping at all - and I would say it is at least comparable to a wood to wood or ivory joint.

Chris

buddha162
12-11-2003, 05:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Keith Talent:</font><hr>
So ... I get the feeling a lot of good players here prefer something other than SS, maybe phenolic, maybe wood-to-wood ... but how come I don't see many (any?) pros using wood-to-wood? <hr /></blockquote>

I've actually noticed the opposite, that less pros use SS as opposed to ivory/phenolic. I think I read a cuemaker commenting on the increased popularity of W2W joints, as in cues with pins that screw directly into wooden threads. 20 years ago almost all you see are SS joints.

Roger

ras314
12-11-2003, 06:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Keith Talent:</font><hr>
My question is ... I read a lot of posts here rapping the typical stainless joint. I started off with a couple of cues with 'em and found them OK, but over the past few months, I've come to prefer the wood-to-wood thump of my sneaky (not with a wood screw or wooden threads, mind you, but flat-faced) to the kind of harsh, pingy feel of what was my regular cue, with a stainless joint.
<hr /></blockquote>
Have you tried playing with the stainless steel joint after getting used to the wood to wood? First cue I bought after starting to play again was a Japanese Balabuska, didn't like it much. Went to a sneaky and now really don't like the steel joint. Not the balance difference but the hit difference is what bothers me.

We appear to be in the same boat, but I'm a little concerned how a metal screw to wood thread will hold up.

Wally_in_Cincy
12-11-2003, 07:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr>...I'm a little concerned how a metal screw to wood thread will hold up.<hr /></blockquote>

If you don't cross-thread it (which would be hard to do) it will hold up fine. My McDermott has been screwed and unscrewed at least 1000 times with no problem.

My girlfriend's Pechauer has the same setup. It was really tight when new. It's still snug but just not quite as tight as it was. Not really a problem though.

woody_968
12-11-2003, 08:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> My girlfriend's Pechauer has the same setup. It was really tight when new. It's still snug but just not quite as tight as it was. Not really a problem though. <hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

RedHell
12-11-2003, 08:39 AM
No wonder why your name is woody !!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

ras314
12-11-2003, 09:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
If you don't cross-thread it (which would be hard to do) it will hold up fine. My McDermott has been screwed and unscrewed at least 1000 times with no problem.
<hr /></blockquote>
I've been thinking of getting a McDermott just to try the joint. But then I would want a 314 shaft. For that much I could get a low end custom.

Don't know why I want a new cue anyway, what I have suits me just fine. Better off learning to play a little better I think.

Wally_in_Cincy
12-11-2003, 09:06 AM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Like I said, it's not a problem /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

BLACKHEART
12-11-2003, 10:01 AM
Keith, any Q that has some portion of the shaft &amp; butt section with wood exposed is considered a wood to wood joint. It can have a bushing in the shaft like the Meucci or screw directly into the wood of the shaft like the Mcdermott. As long as wood is touching wood when it's screwed together...JER

12-11-2003, 10:29 AM

Keith Talent
12-11-2003, 11:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote buddha162:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Keith Talent:</font><hr>
. but how come I don't see many (any?) pros using wood-to-wood? <hr /></blockquote>

I've actually noticed the opposite, that less pros use SS as opposed to ivory/phenolic. I think I read a cuemaker commenting on the increased popularity of W2W joints, as in cues with pins that screw directly into wooden threads. 20 years ago almost all you see are SS joints.

Roger <hr /></blockquote>

Guess I wasn't clear there ... seems I see most pros using something other than w2w OR SS ... phenolic or ivory, apparently. Still, I can't recall seeing a pro using a hidden joint, so I wondered whether there was a playability problem ... or is it marketing?

Maybe having ss, phenolic or ivory around w2w contact gives more support and a more consistent hit?

I haven't hit with those combos ... no wood visible at the joint of my mid-range Falcon. Is visible with better cues that are a tad outta my price range these days. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Keith Talent
12-11-2003, 11:09 AM
Wally, glad to hear you're still satisfied with the kind of action you're getting with your shaft. Sux when your joint gets soft, no doubt.

Keith Talent
12-11-2003, 11:16 AM
WW,
That's what I was wondering about ... could imagine that inconsistencies in wood could cause the joint to be less than flush, or have variations in hardness ... also do like a little more weight forward.

Thanks

Iowashark
12-11-2003, 11:27 AM
I own a McDermott with the steel pin/wooden threads and I like the hit. It's the longevity of the joint that worries me. It seems like everytime I take the cue apart some wood shavings fall out. I've since quit breaking with it...probably shouldn't have been breaking with that joint in the first place. But I also don't like the W2W joints as I too am a front-weighted cue kind of player. Never been a sneaky pete fan.

BLACKHEART
12-11-2003, 01:06 PM
The only time that damage to the joint can come from breaking, is when the two pieces are not snugged up together. NOT TIGHT, just snugged up. Over tightening, can result in damage to the joint. I recommend only as tight as you can get it, using your thumbs &amp; the first 2 fingers of each hand.If you have a metal screw threading directly into the wooden threads of the shaft &amp; the fit becomes a little loose, you can put some auto past wax on a Q-tip &amp; spread it around on the wooden threads. Let it dry, then the dried wax will fill in the gaps &amp; tighten the fit...JER

Cueless Joey
12-11-2003, 03:14 PM
I prefer non ss joint collars.
Piloted ss joint collars are very heavy. They also imo "deaden" the cue. Put it simply, you have two woods being joined and a huge steel collar in between will kill the vibration and REASONANCE between the two woods ( shaft and butt). The front balancing argument is moot imo b/c a stainless steel 3/8 screw weighs about a little over an ounce. If the forearm is made of really light and poor resonating wood, you will have a poor hit anyway even if you add a heavy ss collar.
My favorite collar is a buckhorn on the butt and phenolic on the shafts. Buckhorn is hard and doesn't chip easily like ivory. A phenolic collar on the shaft softens it a little and I like the contrasting color.
Schuler's joint btw is not wood to wood. It is an aluminum collar with small pin and brass insert in the shaft. A true wood to wood will have the big 3/8 pin and no brass insert in the shafts.

ted harris
12-12-2003, 01:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> Keith, any Q that has some portion of the shaft &amp; butt section with wood exposed is considered a wood to wood joint. It can have a bushing in the shaft like the Meucci or screw directly into the wood of the shaft like the Mcdermott. As long as wood is touching wood when it's screwed together...JER <hr /></blockquote>
That's not the way I have understood it since I can remember. Wood to wood is wood facing wood, with no insert, and the pin screwing into wood. Very interesting? Gonna have to find out now!

hadenball
12-12-2003, 07:09 AM
Ted,

I am also under the impression that a joint with a brass insert is a wood 2 wood joint as long as wood is contacting wood. IMHO there is a more solid hit with brass insert vs. 3/8 x 10 to wood threads. I'm interested to know what your opinion is on this. Thanks, Haden

BLACKHEART
12-12-2003, 10:06 AM
As always I believe the shaft taper,ferrule &amp; tip have more to do with the feel of the hit, than any other factors. When I started making Qs,I tried to keep things as simple as possible. That way, there were less chances for me to screw up.The 3/8-10 screw into the shaft,with no bushing, was less steps to produce &amp; one less part(the bushing), to deal with. I turned out,that I prefer the softer hit, that this combination produces. A cue with a bushing may feel more solid,because you're getting less vibration feeding down to your hand. You might be getting less feedback(feel),from your shot as well...JER

piglit
12-14-2003, 12:12 PM
Fire it up!

-pigi

Keith Talent
12-14-2003, 06:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> As always I believe the shaft taper,ferrule &amp; tip have more to do with the feel of the hit, than any other factors. <hr /></blockquote>

That I'll be looking into, now that I may be joining the rest of you in that hunt for the holy grail of "hits."

In my case, though, the joint was the only real difference in 3 cues ... all were by same maker and had same shaft, taper, ferrule (aegis) and tip (Triangle). The thing that stood out for me, except for the weight going further back without ss joint, was the wood-to-wood feel.

Thanks for all the replies ... now I have some new ideas about how to go broke.

bluewolf
12-15-2003, 06:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Keith Talent:</font><hr> WW,
That's what I was wondering about ... could imagine that inconsistencies in wood could cause the joint to be less than flush, or have variations in hardness ... also do like a little more weight forward.

Thanks <hr /></blockquote>

Ray says my scruggs is slightly front weighted, but I am not conscious of that. I would say for me it is 'correct' weighted. guess it was just the right cue for me.

Rays cues feel so front weighted, to me they feel as bad as the back weighted cues feel.

Laura