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04-18-2002, 07:56 AM
I developed a break trainer that incorporates all 15 balls or 9 balls. It allows you to break and see the reaction of the cue ball. It does not allow the object balls to move about the table. It doe not require any resetting of the "rack". As soon as you break the balls they resettle into their original racked condition and your ready to break again. I'm thinking about marketing and manufacturing this but am skeptical as to what the interest may be. How many of you would be interested in a break trainer price around $50? TIA

Johnson

SPetty
04-18-2002, 08:02 AM
I hate to say I would be skeptical of such a device. If the balls being hit don't react exactly like a "normal" rack, then I wouldn't be able to believe that the cue ball is reacting "normally".

Doctor_D
04-18-2002, 08:15 AM
Good morning:

SPetty, I would have to agree with you on that thought. Especially, based on my expeirence and observations, since the cue ball is routinely impacted by the object balls following a break.

However, with all that having been said, I would like to see a demonstration.

Dr. D.

04-18-2002, 10:49 AM
The intention is NOT to determine the spread of the object balls. The sole purpose is to learn how to control the cue ball. The testing and evaluation by some of the best players (breakers) locally have been positive as all agreed that it performs as intended. My question still remains. If a break trainer was priced at $50 would you buy one? I'm not convinced that pool players would practice their break even if it was easy to repeat, without having to gather up the balls and re-rack.
<hr></blockquote>

Chris Cass
04-18-2002, 01:27 PM
Hi Johnson,

Believe me, if it works people will buy it. Now, $50. is the part I'm not sure of. If you add a measuring device as far as speed of the break is concerned, then, go for it. I've seen players pay $5. a break using a radar gun, to know how fast they're breaking. It wouldn't surprise me if it sold easily, if you attend a few major tourneys for a demo. Like maybe, Las Vegas at the Riv May 8-18th.

Breaking is such an important part of the game.

Regards,

C.C.~~your approach to selling here was a good one.

rackmup
04-18-2002, 01:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>As soon as you break the balls they resettle into their original racked condition and your ready to break again. <hr></blockquote>

If the balls are somehow "connected" (to prevent them from spreading), the reaction of the cueball will not exhibit it's normal tendencies.

Upon impact during a normal break, the cueball either:

<ul type="square"> Penetrates the area of the rack, pushing the balls around.
Rebounds back (depending on the english placed on the cueball at the time of tip impact.)
Glances to one side or another, depending on where the lead ball is struck.
The cueball gets banged around by moving object balls as they kick off each other and the rails.
Sails off the table, striking a glass of beer on the bar and pouring into the lap of a Hell's Angel (okay...maybe this just happens to me.)
[/list]

My question is: How does the rack "re-assemble" itself? And if the balls are somehow connected, wouldn't you (others) agree, the reaction of the cueball upon impact has been influenced by the racked balls ("Break Trainer)?

Regards,

Ken (prolific yet copious (with some drivel), all the while, remaining dubious to the masses)

SPetty
04-18-2002, 02:02 PM
Thanks for clarifying and reiterating what I said initially...

rackmup
04-18-2002, 02:45 PM
Sorry Mr. Petty,

I didn't read beyond the first post before writing mine. If it's any comfort, "brilliant minds think alike." The discomfort might come from me comparing your mind (brilliant) to that of mine (copious and full of drivel.)

Regards,

Ken (hoping the page loaded fast enough for you)/ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Doctor_D
04-18-2002, 02:47 PM
Good afternoon:

Complex, as well as free sprited, defines you well my dear Pookie !!! /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Dr. D.

Tom_In_Cincy
04-18-2002, 03:10 PM
Got me interested.
Would you be interested in getting more feedback? I can see Pool Hall owners buying these and renting them out to customers for practice. Or, is you model for single user strength? Would there be a commercial version that could withstand maybe 1000 breaks a week?

Controlling the Cue ball is one of the most important aspects of the break.. and I, for one, am interested..


Very interested..

SpiderMan
04-18-2002, 04:01 PM
Ken,

You listed five possible outcomes, but I argue that if the rack performs normally for #2 (rebounding cueball), and I believe it would despite a few ounces of restoring force, then it has a very useful purpose.

I do believe that, for this case, it could react normally. Assume, for example, that the balls are connected as you say, or perhaps held in place by something equivalent to tensioned strings that pass through 15 holes in the slate underneath them. The restoring force of the strings would actually be insignificant compared to the inertia effect of the balls themselves, because of the extremely short time duration of impact and the high accelerations involved. It's a similar situation to the deflection/squirt phenomenon, which is for the most part unaffected by how tight your bridge is made. It happens so fast that skin tension doesn't matter, only effective end mass of the cue stick. Same here, a few ounces restoring force would be nothing compared to the accelerating force, due to the short duration of impact.

As long as the cueball was played to break ideally, i. e. to rebound off the rack and die center table, I think a reasonably benign retaining mechanism could be made that would not affect the result.

The main difference would be that there would not be any secondary collisions with the cueball and up-table object balls. But, if you're just training yourself to do the main event properly, then this isn't important and you'd still get excellent benefit. So, if the goal is to experience repetition of a "good" break over and over, it could be very useful.

I like the idea.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: rackmup:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;As soon as you break the balls they resettle into their original racked condition and your ready to break again. &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If the balls are somehow "connected" (to prevent them from spreading), the reaction of the cueball will not exhibit it's normal tendencies.

Upon impact during a normal break, the cueball either:

<ul type="square"> Penetrates the area of the rack, pushing the balls around.
Rebounds back (depending on the english placed on the cueball at the time of tip impact.)
Glances to one side or another, depending on where the lead ball is struck.
The cueball gets banged around by moving object balls as they kick off each other and the rails.
Sails off the table, striking a glass of beer on the bar and pouring into the lap of a Hell's Angel (okay...maybe this just happens to me.)
[/list]

My question is: How does the rack "re-assemble" itself? And if the balls are somehow connected, wouldn't you (others) agree, the reaction of the cueball upon impact has been influenced by the racked balls ("Break Trainer)?

Regards,

Ken (prolific yet copious (with some drivel), all the while, remaining dubious to the masses) <hr></blockquote>

04-18-2002, 08:54 PM
For anyone with hundreds or thousands of dollars in pool related stuff, I think this would be a natural buy at that price. I would buy it for that.

But I think it would go better at $35. The problem is that you have to figure you'd use it intensively, but for only a relatively short time, maybe even a single extended session.

Even at the lower price I'm thinking is better, I think the market is pretty limited. Maybe 5,000 units nationally, or considerably less. (That would argue for getting as much margin as you could in your market price, not taking less to do more volume that isn't likely to occur anyway).

Then you have to wonder if profiting in the lowest 6-figures, max, probably over 3 to 4 years, justifies the effort. If it's dead easy, a total sideline, no problem. The harder it is, the less it makes economic sense.

Put me on a list when you have it available.

04-18-2002, 09:05 PM
The concept is good for some breaking practice, but not for others.

If you want the cue ball to come back off the rack to center table, I don't see a problem with inhibiting the rack's travel. While it is true that sometimes balls will hit the cue ball as it rests at center table, still, you did all you could by getting it there, and that cue ball path is what you want to happen every time. If the trainer gets you that action on the cue ball, it did its job.

But if you want to use a cut break, or a 2nd ball break, where the desired action is to go to the long rail and back into the rack, I think you need the balls to move to see if you're hitting that right.

Otherwise, you have to rely on seeing where the cue ball hits the still intact rack and try to judge the speed and angle to see if you got what you wanted. The problem is that the cue ball is travelling at break speed originally, and only marginally reduced by the hit on the rack and the rail, still faster than any regular shot. I doubt you could reliably see the rail contact point, let alone the secondary hit on the rack.

In these cases, it seems to me that you need to see the balls react to know what happened.

Chris Cass
04-19-2002, 03:16 AM
After much thought, I think it would sell considering the Sardo Gizmo sold.

Regards,

C.C.~~would buy 1 of everything on infomercials if the wife would let him. C.C.(I need that honey.) Wife(like another hole in the head.)

04-19-2002, 06:43 AM
School will buy one right now! Thank you....randyg

Q-guy
04-19-2002, 07:12 AM
Post deleted by Q-guy

JimS
04-19-2002, 07:46 AM
I'd probably consider it. Hell I even "considered" one of those triangular shafts I've seen advertised lately.

JimS
04-19-2002, 07:48 AM
IF I saw a picture, and IF I was convinced it would work, I'd definitely buy it. Practicing the break is a pain...what with having to get balls out of several pockets every time.

SPetty
04-19-2002, 08:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SpiderMan:</font><hr>Assume, for example, that the balls are connected as you say, or perhaps held in place by something equivalent to tensioned strings that pass through 15 holes in the slate underneath them.<hr></blockquote>

HAHAHAHA!
And we complain about the sardo dimples...

SpiderMan
04-19-2002, 08:54 AM
C'mon, that was just a hypothetical example for describing the physics issue. I don't think the inventor has actually revealed his method, but I'm sure that for $50 it's not a modified table.

Did you receive my reply to your email last week? Never heard back.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: SpiderMan:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;Assume, for example, that the balls are connected as you say, or perhaps held in place by something equivalent to tensioned strings that pass through 15 holes in the slate underneath them.&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

HAHAHAHA!
And we complain about the sardo dimples...
<hr></blockquote>

Chris Cass
04-19-2002, 12:21 PM
Hi Q-Guy,

I didn't say it was a successful product but someone bought it. The Barnum &amp; Bailey rule of thumb.

Regards,

C.C.

cheesemouse
04-19-2002, 01:48 PM
I've read this thread twice and I think it's a put on but I'll still buy it. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

TomBrooklyn
04-20-2002, 09:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Johnson Bradford:</font><hr> I developed a break trainer that incorporates all 15 balls or 9 balls... As soon as you break the balls they resettle into their original racked condition and you're ready to break again. <hr></blockquote><font color=blue>Questions:</font color=blue>
<font color=blue>1.</font color=blue> Is this one device or two separate devices for a 9 and a 15 ball rack?
<font color=blue>2.</font color=blue> Does it require one to use a special set of balls, or can it be used on any set?
<font color=blue>3.</font color=blue> Does one have to get the rack to get the balls back into a tightly racked position, or does one just have to push the whole set back into place on the head spot?

04-20-2002, 11:57 AM
The real market for the Sardo is international. The Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, etc. see it on TV and must have it. Don't forget pool is MUCH more popular and growing much faster in Asia than here.

cheesemouse
04-20-2002, 08:26 PM
eeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!

Troy
04-20-2002, 08:32 PM
I would think a statement like that would carry much more weight if a source for the information was provided.

Troy-san

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> The real market for the Sardo is international. The Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, etc. see it on TV and must have it. Don't forget pool is MUCH more popular and growing much faster in Asia than here. <hr></blockquote>

04-21-2002, 01:36 PM
I just heard from a co-worker that there is a discussion about a break trainer on the forum. I am very surprised because I just published the site 2 hours ago, www.breakrak.com (http://www.breakrak.com) . My break trainer was engineered a year ago by a group in Oklamhoma and is now in production. In fact we are sending out working models to the major billiard magazines including one directed to Mr. george Fels. And will be having it on ebay next week. Maybe this discussion is not about mine, I will check back in a bit. Joe Sanko

cheesemouse
04-21-2002, 02:20 PM
Joe,
Now that is a trippy looking rig I have been trying to imagine it and now I see how it is done. LOL.

04-21-2002, 02:20 PM
here is a pic of my break trainer that is nearly in production. It does not need to be reset, it fits any size table. www.breakrak.com (http://www.breakrak.com)

04-21-2002, 02:27 PM
Thanks, It was not easy to accomplish. It has been a year in the design stage and now is in production. This site does not allow any selling so to find out more please e-mail: sankocues@yahoo.com . I am a custom cue maker and I eel that the break is obviously the most important aspect of your game. This has been tested and proved to replicate a break, and teaches you cue ball control.

04-21-2002, 02:31 PM
My friend Joe Sanko, of SankoCues in Florida, called &amp; apprised me of this discussion. I too am glad to hear about this kind of product (not ours by it's description) on the internet, it's a big world &amp; the need for this training has been there awhile. It's great that there is interest in training devices, they can certainly be of good use. I worked on ours for a more than a year, all the whilst wondering if I were a lunatic, maybe not so...! You folks will see our product on eBay next week &amp; in Las Vegas next month. These chat rooms do have some great information on them, don't they?

04-21-2002, 02:40 PM
Remember, I am not the originator of this subject in this forum. I interceded with my own training aid. I am in the process of introducing this trainer in Las Vegas May 8 thru the 12th. I will have about 100 of the units for immediate delivery and will take orders after they are gone. George Fels will recieve one to critique in about three days. Let's hope he will add to this discussion his input. Thank you, Joe Sanko

04-21-2002, 02:41 PM
Mr.Sanko made a teeny error in his post... we are NEARLY "finished" with our 1st mass production run, intended to be distributed nationally. We have already sold several locally &amp; the interest is growing.

04-21-2002, 02:44 PM
jus lookin at the picture of the gizmo, i assume it tensions against the side rails with those black rods.

although i do bring the cueball straight back to die in the middle of the table with some regularity (yea, and the moon is full with "some regularity"), it occasionally occurs that the c.b. actually heads down-table which, it seems, would cause it to use those black rods as launching ramps.

yes???

dan

04-21-2002, 02:53 PM
The black rods are bunji cords. The connecter at the sides can be adjusted for any size table. After contact with the cue ball the BreakRAK will move as if it is any rack on any table. The response is identical to a genuine break the only difference is the sound. . The only contributing factor is what ball may hit the cue ball after the break and cause it to move. What this trainer does is to teach you cue ball control. It is a duplicate of the break that you will use in your next game $$$$ And you can break and break until you arm falls off. "You will never have to rerack" Just practice, practice, be a winner!!!!!!!!1

04-21-2002, 03:23 PM
WE HAVE NOT ADDED A COUNTER YET BUT ARE IN THE PROCESS OF BUILDING A REPEAT BREAK CUE AND DOING SO. WE HAVE FIELD TESTED THIS EXTENSIVELY AND TO DATE IT IS NEITHER COMMERCIAL OR HOME USE. NO DIFFERENCE IN PRICE.IT IS CABABLE OF RECIEVING ALL OF THE ABUSE YOU CAN DELIVER. THANK YOU, JOE SANKO

04-21-2002, 03:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Joe Sanko:</font><hr> The black rods are bunji cords. <hr></blockquote>

oh, sorry. that's completely different.

will the cue ball use the bunjee cord as a launching ramp or will the bungee send the c.b. back at you??

dan..don't try finessing a non-answer with an old reporter please.

04-21-2002, 04:06 PM
When the cb contacts the rack, the response is identical to a real rack. The cue ball will respond and stop where you have learned it to. The response from a real break is unpredictable. What you will repeat is to have the cb respond repeatedly to a replicated position.This is a repeated response when using the "BREAKRAK" what is unpredictable is the response of the object balls. You will repeatedly place the cb in the same place.

Troy
04-21-2002, 04:21 PM
Gobble, gobble, gobble -----

Two main reasons to practice breaks are A) Cue Ball Control (as it responds to the entire rack of balls), and B) Break properties of the rack itself.

Your GIZMO can do neither !!!!!

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Joe Sanko:</font><hr> The black rods are bunji cords. The connecter at the sides can be adjusted for any size table. After contact with the cue ball the BreakRAK will move as if it is any rack on any table. The response is identical to a genuine break the only difference is the sound. . The only contributing factor is what ball may hit the cue ball after the break and cause it to move. What this trainer does is to teach you cue ball control. It is a duplicate of the break that you will use in your next game $$$$ And you can break and break until you arm falls off. "You will never have to rerack" Just practice, practice, be a winner!!!!!!!!1 <hr></blockquote>

SPetty
04-21-2002, 04:31 PM
Hello Joe,

Let's say that I really NEED this device, because I break poorly. In fact, I break so poorly that I will glance the cueball off the side of the one ball in front, so that the cueball does NOT stay in place or come back up table, but does actually go forward to the place on the table occupied by the black bungee cords holding the rack.

How does the cue ball react when it strikes the black bungee cords? What does it do then?

SPetty~~one more attempt at rewording the same question...

04-21-2002, 04:47 PM
You cannot control what the cb will do if impacted improperly. What this will train you to do is to hit the cb squarely for a start.

04-21-2002, 04:55 PM
You "will" gain cue ball control. It is not a gimmick. It really works. If you are a doubting Thomas, call me toll free at 1 866 732 1300 between 12:oo and 5:30 E.S.T. Give me a credit card #. I will send you the BreakRAK and if it does not improve your break in 7 days you can send it back for a full refund including shipping charges back to me. I can honestly say, I have never had a "BreakRAK" returned. Your testimonial will be considered and used as a test panel. Joe Sanko

04-21-2002, 06:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Joe Sanko:</font><hr> You cannot control what the cb will do if impacted improperly. What this will train you to do is to hit the cb squarely for a start. <hr></blockquote>


ok, i'm a little slow but i'm beginning to get ther theory. when you say "you will learn" i have to picture you with a monicle pronouncing it " you vill learn". it's an aversion training thing. kinda like the 12volt car battery and fishooks thing for jumping up.

you vill learn or you vill die!!! i refer you to what barbara calls "the mark of crimi chronicles" for the rational precurser training. it's kinda like taking a full swing on a golf ball in a tile bathroom.


dan..science marches on.

04-24-2002, 05:39 PM
Hello,
I just subscribed to Billiards Digest and found this forum. I purchased a "Break Rack" last month, and my pool buddies and I think it is great. Defiantly well worth the money.

Paul_Mon
04-25-2002, 09:19 AM
$249 seem pretty steep to me. Is that really the reserve on this? BTW, did you get my e-mail last week?

Paul Mon

JimS
04-25-2002, 10:49 AM
What happens when I miscue and the cue ball hits the bunjee cords? I can see the cb coming back at my head...or the Tv behind me.

04-25-2002, 02:52 PM
Will you please post a short video of you executing a breakshot using your contraption. I think it might be easier to understand if we can see you shooting at it (please use sound, only because you said it sounds different).

Thanks
eg8r