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View Full Version : is miscueing a foul?



ArNz
12-17-2003, 07:04 PM
hi is miscue a foul? i mean when you hear that slapping sound of the ferrule? i'm just curious on what the US Open and WPC tournaments take on this. do they ever foul players or not.

randyg
12-17-2003, 07:10 PM
As you state it, NO, according to the World Standardized Rules....randyg

ArNz
12-17-2003, 07:15 PM
thtnx! but wd that be a foul since the ferrule hits the cueball? the rule said that only the cue tip should touch the cueball.

BTW, how about in US Open trnments, do they ever call a foul on some miscues liek this?

The Watchdog
12-17-2003, 07:16 PM
Slighty tricky question. One must first know if the tourney is "cueball only" fouls, or "all fouls". Then one must know if the "miscued" cue touches the cueball funny, or slides off and hits another ball.

The BCA has used World Standard rules for many years, and take great pride in themselves, and the other major world federations for pool, interpreting and laying down the rules with the spirit of the game in mind. That said,

The rules say any contact with the ferrule is a foul.

Do not forget that just because it is a bona fide rule that everyone will be aware of it. I have seen major National events with erroneous calls, and have competed in events where only one in 30 knows the actual rules and the interpretations.

To properly call this, one needs an experienced referee, with extensive playing knowledge, for it is the audio as well as the visual which can sway the call, as well as the results.

And please do not forget that referees are human too. There is no excuse for not KNOWING the rules, but to make a bad call can happen.

Good luck.

Cueless Joey
12-17-2003, 07:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> As you state it, NO, according to the World Standardized Rules....randyg <hr /></blockquote>
Randy, I called a player a foul on a miscue one time.
He was trying to slow roll the ball and he was hitting the cb way up high. He miscued and the cb was obviously hit with ferrule. I thought it was impossible for the cue to go that slow on top of the cb, miscue and ferrule not hitting the cb.
He agreed it was a foul.

ted harris
12-17-2003, 07:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ArNz:</font><hr> hi is miscue a foul? i mean when you hear that slapping sound of the ferrule? i'm just curious on what the US Open and WPC tournaments take on this. do they ever foul players or not. <hr /></blockquote>
If the cueball jumps off the playing surface of the table it is definitely a foul, even if it lands back on the green.

Ralph S.
12-17-2003, 08:32 PM
Not necessarily Ted. I dont know the exact rule number, but if the cueball goes airborn landing on a rail for example, and spins back on the table without being touched by a player or chalk or any other objects, it is a leagal shot. No foul. I am sure the rule wizards here like Fred, know what the exact number is. This is, btw, according to BCA rules.

ted harris
12-17-2003, 09:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph S.:</font><hr> Not necessarily Ted. <hr /></blockquote>
According to Texas Express, it is a foul, since the only way to make the cue ball jump on a miscue is for the ferrule to scoop the cueball up off the playing area. The rules specifically state that if there is contact between the cue more than once it is a foul.

6.10: Miscue
A miscue is a foul (on any shot) if any part of the cue stick other than the chalked tip comes into contact with the cue ball. If determined to be a foul, opponent receives cue ball-in-hand.

Also, if you want to read the rest of the rules regarding fouls you can check out this link;
Texas Express (http://www.texasexpress.com/rules.htm)

Ralph S.
12-17-2003, 11:19 PM
Hello Ted. In your first response you stated: "If the cuball goes off the table but still comes back on the green it is a foul". There was no reference to a miscue there. Besides, it all depends on what set oh rules you want to play by.

Just to let you know, you can make the cueball jump onto the rail without miscueing or scooping the ball as you stated.

ted harris
12-17-2003, 11:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph S.:</font><hr> Hello Ted. In your first response you stated: "If the cuball goes off the table but still comes back on the green it is a foul". There was no reference to a miscue there. Besides, it all depends on what set oh rules you want to play by.

Just to let you know, you can make the cueball jump onto the rail without miscueing or scooping the ball as you stated. <hr /></blockquote>
Ralph,
When I referred to the cueball jumping of the playing area, I mean leaving the surface. It was not a reference to jumpin up on the rail. Since this thread is about miscues, I was referring to jumping the ball as a result of a miscue. All I was saying was that if a miscue causes a jump shot, then it is definitely a foul.

Iowashark
12-18-2003, 10:23 AM
As I understood it, the only way a scoop is a foul is if it's intentional. If it's caused by an accidental miscue and doesn't jump over an obstacle it's not a foul. I could be wrong since I'm at work sans the rulebook.

~~Dave

ted harris
12-18-2003, 12:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Iowashark:</font><hr> As I understood it, the only way a scoop is a foul is if it's intentional. If it's caused by an accidental miscue and doesn't jump over an obstacle it's not a foul. I could be wrong since I'm at work sans the rulebook.

~~Dave <hr /></blockquote>
Does that mean if you unintentionally foul, it's not really a foul?

Iowashark
12-18-2003, 01:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ted harris:</font><hr> Does that mean if you unintentionally foul, it's not really a foul? <hr /></blockquote>

Interestingly put, this is how a tournament director had once explained it to me. If the miscue causes a scoop but there were no balls obstructing the path needed to get over, and cue ball makes contact with object ball then no foul has been made. This rule would obviously only work when the rules state that a miscue is not a foul.

~~Dave

Pelican
12-18-2003, 01:13 PM
It probably depends on which sanctioning organization you are going by. I shoot APA. A miscue that causes the cue ball to jump up is not a foul. Intentionally scooping the ball for a jump shot as opposed to jumping the correct way is a foul. A push shot where the cue stays in contact with the cue ball as it is traveling is also a foul. If the cue contacts the cue ball twice in the same shot it is also a foul.

ted harris
12-18-2003, 01:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Pelican:</font><hr> It probably depends on which sanctioning organization you are going by. I shoot APA. A miscue that causes the cue ball to jump up is not a foul. Intentionally scooping the ball for a jump shot as opposed to jumping the correct way is a foul. A push shot where the cue stays in contact with the cue ball as it is traveling is also a foul. If the cue contacts the cue ball twice in the same shot it is also a foul. <hr /></blockquote>
The only way for a miscue to cause the cueball to jump is for the cue to contact the ball more than once. This has already been stated in my previous posts, according to the rules set forth by Texas Express. Since almost every governing body, except the APA has followed the template set by Texas Express, I think it's safe to say that most players &amp; tournaments go by their rules.
The rulebook is not open to intrepretation.

DoomCue
12-18-2003, 03:34 PM
Ted sez:

[ QUOTE ]
The only way for a miscue to cause the cueball to jump is for the cue to contact the ball more than once. <hr /></blockquote>

This is an assumption and a generalization, isn't it? I think it's safe to say that sometimes , when a miscue occurs, the CB may jump due to its being touched more than once, but that doesn't have to mean the cue HAD to contact the CB twice. Therefore, it can't always be a foul. That's too big of a blanket statement. If it were the case that all jumped balls caused by miscues are the results of a double hit, wouldn't there would be a rule stating that all miscues which cause the CB to jump are to be judged as fouls? Seems to me that's your interpretation.

It also seems to me that you're confused about balls leaving the surface. The first section of Texas Express Rule 6.6 refers to balls which leave the surface, not balls which leave the surface AND then return to the surface. If a ball leaves the surface (and doesn't return), it's a foul. If a ball leaves the surface and RETURNS, it may or may not be a foul, it depends on whether the ball struck something else on its way back to the table. That's covered in the last paragraph of Rule 6.6.

The rulebook is open to plenty of interpretation, as no rulebook has a rule for every possible instance. In those cases not accounted for in the rulebook, somebody has to make a judgment call, based on his personal interpretation of the rules. Rule 6.10 states, "A miscue is a foul (on any shot) if any part of the cue stick other than the chalked tip comes into contact with the cue ball. If determined to be a foul, opponent receives cue ball-in-hand." This means that if the ferrule or some other part of the shaft, besides the "chalked tip" contacts the CB, it's going to be a foul. That's usually fairly easy to see. As far as a double hit causing a foul, that has to be determined by a 3rd party, and we all know that most people don't know how to judge whether or not a double hit has occurred. You obviously think that an indicator of a double hit is a jump, whereas I don't.

-djb

randyg
12-18-2003, 03:40 PM
ArNz:

Remember, you said it "sounds" like the ferrule striking the cue ball. That's hard to prove...randyg

ArNz
12-18-2003, 07:05 PM
thnx to all who replied, im glad to hear lots of opinion.

btw, i've been surfing around lately and come across the "jacksonville experiement". they stated that no matter what- the slapping sound you always hear is the cueball hitting the ferrule. so i assume that each time i hear it then its a foul? and they stated that miscues are also double hit. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

i also don't like the unintentional rule cz its the players responsiblility to stroke it well and its the error on the part of a player.

ArNz
12-18-2003, 07:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> ArNz:

Remember, you said it "sounds" like the ferrule striking the cue ball. That's hard to prove...randyg <hr /></blockquote>

yeah but i just came across knwoing bout d "jacksonville experiement" i think its now easy for me to bakc it up /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

thanx 4 d replies