PDA

View Full Version : What hit are Players looking for in Cues



CarterCues
12-23-2003, 02:12 PM
I am just curious what type of hit most players are looking for in their cues? exp. tip, pin, joint, shaft taper????? What is the best in opinion for each? Thanks

Cueless Joey
12-23-2003, 02:15 PM
No rattle, crisp, great feedback to the hands and good cueball action.

UWPoolGod
12-23-2003, 03:14 PM
I prefer a 3/8-10 pin with a little longer tapered shaft. Although my new local custom makers shaft hits better with more of a conical taper, so I just told him yesterday to get on making me a new shaft. The shaft is the most important thing, IMO, to how the cue plays. I put someone elses shaft from the same maker on my butt and it hit super solid, so I am getting one the same way..which is how his loaner cue hit while mine was being made.

I use a normal phenolic ferrule and a Moori M tip. Might splurge down the road for an ivory ferrule, and diamond ivory inlays.

tateuts
12-23-2003, 05:44 PM
I agree with Joey and UW. Crisp, firm hit, good feedback, little rattle/vibration.

I prefer a stiffer shaft, but I don't like so much taper that the shaft feels like it's prying open my closed bridge.

Noise is an issue. I like a cue with a solid hit without a harsh noise on impact. 10 count radial pin is my favorite with synthetic collar but really ivory is my favorite . I prefer a flat faced joint.

I like a long ferrule - 1" or 1 1/4". It helps me aim. I would like to see someone make some joints and ferrules from Buffalo horn - they are black, tough, and would look pretty cool.

Here's what I don't like:

Cues that are so forward weighted that they feel like they are pulling you through the stroke.

Harsh, pinging noises or vibration on impact.

Cues that feel dead at impact. I file those shafts straight in the trash can.

Cues that are too thin or too thick in the handle. Too thin: Dale Perry, too thick, a lot of old cues and older Josey's. Just right - Schon.

Tips - Moori or Talisman medium.

Cues where the wrap doesn't go back far enough - where you're grabbing the butt sleeve. I actually just prefer smooth black leather or slightly grained dulled black leather.

There.

Chris

tateuts
12-23-2003, 05:47 PM
Actually, the same hit as a Southwest would be about right.

Chris

JimS
12-23-2003, 08:39 PM
Took the words right outa my mouth. Played with a Samsara this last weekend that could have passed for my South West. With blindfold I'd have never known which is which. That's what I want. I like a hard tip and I like a little noise at contact as well as the vibration to go through all parts of my hand that are on the cue. I want as much physical feedback as possible I guess, visual, auditory, touch.

griffith_d
12-23-2003, 09:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> Took the words right outa my mouth. Played with a Samsara this last weekend that could have passed for my South West. With blindfold I'd have never known which is which. That's what I want. I like a hard tip and I like a little noise at contact as well as the vibration to go through all parts of my hand that are on the cue. I want as much physical feedback as possible I guess, visual, auditory, touch. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree with the play of a Samsara, after I played a few shots with Scott's Samsara,....it is a great hitting cue. I would love to have this Cocobolo Samsara. I contacted them about coming off of the price,..but no deal.

http://proficientbilliards.com/store/Samsaracue.htm

Griff

dg-in-centralpa
12-23-2003, 09:58 PM
Personally I love a stiff hit. I have a Predator and a Richard Black. Taper doesn't make much difference to me as I have both kinds. Ivory ferrule over anything else makes no difference. I like the hit and looks.

DG - plays with a Black Bushka model

tateuts
12-24-2003, 12:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dg-in-centralpa:</font><hr> Personally I love a stiff hit. DG - <hr /></blockquote>

Me too - I like the feeling that the cue tip is piercing through the space of the cueball, not bouncing away from it. Make sense?

Chris

buddha162
12-24-2003, 05:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> 10 count radial pin is my favorite with synthetic collar<hr /></blockquote>

What does "10 count radial pin" mean? Are you referring to how long the pin is protruding from the butt?

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to see someone make some joints and ferrules from Buffalo horn - they are black, tough, and would look pretty cool.<hr /></blockquote>

Dayton offers buckhorn joints on his cues.

Roger

tateuts
12-24-2003, 09:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote buddha162:</font><hr>
What does "10 count radial pin" mean? Are you referring to how long the pin is protruding from the butt?
Dayton offers buckhorn joints on his cues.

Roger <hr /></blockquote>

I'm referring to a 3/8 X 10 radial pin - it's a thick threaded specially designed joint screw that screws into the bare threaded wood of a the shaft.

Staghorn (buckhorn) is antler. Buffalo horn is a short pitch-black horn that polishes up well and is a beautiful glossy black when finished. The horns are heavy and dense, like ivory. I do not know how buffalo horn would hold up or play in a ferrule or joint - but I do know it's beautiful and I would like to see cuemakers experiment more with the myriad of materials available these days.

Chris

Fat Ivory
12-24-2003, 10:01 AM
I'm trying to make sense of your post. "Hard", "medium", "soft" describe the feel of hit. "Stiff" to me describes the shaft profile, in this case
probably a shorter, thicker taper. Yet taper does not matter to you.
A stiff shaft can offer a soft hit on a wtw joint. A whippy shaft can offer a pretty hard hit on a steel joint. Factor in tip hardness and just about any shaft taper can offer just about any type of hit with various joints.

Cueless Joey
12-24-2003, 10:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote buddha162:</font><hr>
What does "10 count radial pin" mean? Are you referring to how long the pin is protruding from the butt?
Dayton offers buckhorn joints on his cues.

Roger <hr /></blockquote>

I'm referring to a 3/8 X 10 radial pin - it's a thick threaded specially designed joint screw that screws into the bare threaded wood of a the shaft.

Staghorn (buckhorn) is antler. Buffalo horn is a short pitch-black horn that polishes up well and is a beautiful glossy black when finished. The horns are heavy and dense, like ivory. I do not know how buffalo horn would hold up or play in a ferrule or joint - but I do know it's beautiful and I would like to see cuemakers experiment more with the myriad of materials available these days.

Chris <hr /></blockquote>
Chris, the radial is actually closer to 3/8 7.5 threads per inch.
Buffalo horn ( the black one) is a little brittle I am told. My local cueamker uses buckhorn instead for joints, ferrules and buttcaps ( it's off-white).

CarterCues
12-24-2003, 11:05 AM
Looks like most everyone is a fan of the 3/8's pins. I have fallen in love with them. When I first started to make cues I was using a 5/16-14 piloted joint; Then I discovered the 3/8-7.5 Radial. Now I use both the Radial and a 3/8-11 stainless and a 3/8-11 Titanium. I believe the hit of the flat faced 3/8's pins give you more feel from the cue ball.

buddha162
12-24-2003, 11:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr>
I'm referring to a 3/8 X 10 radial pin - it's a thick threaded specially designed joint screw that screws into the bare threaded wood of a the shaft.<hr /></blockquote>

I've never seen a 3/8 x 10 Radial pin. Is it custom made? My new cue (which should be arriving next week from Dayton) will have the Radial Pin.

Roger

Cueless Joey
12-24-2003, 11:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote buddha162:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr>
I'm referring to a 3/8 X 10 radial pin - it's a thick threaded specially designed joint screw that screws into the bare threaded wood of a the shaft.<hr /></blockquote>

I've never seen a 3/8 x 10 Radial pin. Is it custom made? My new cue (which should be arriving next week from Dayton) will have the Radial Pin.

Roger <hr /></blockquote>
There are two radial pins I know of. One is the Uni-Loc's own ( 3/8 7.5 ) and the surgical radial pin seen on some Philippis and the sledgehammer break cue.

tateuts
12-24-2003, 11:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote buddha162:</font><hr>
Chris, the radial is actually closer to 3/8 7.5 threads per inch.Buffalo horn ( the black one) is a little brittle I am told. My local cueamker uses buckhorn instead for joints, ferrules and buttcaps ( it's off-white). <hr /></blockquote>

No wonder those McDermott shafts fit so tight on my Josey cue! Too bad about the Buffalo horn. I've seen other turned items made from it and it's beautiful stuff.

I have three cues with staghorn joints and they are pretty and play just like ivory.

Chris

tateuts
12-24-2003, 11:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarterCues:</font><hr> Looks like most everyone is a fan of the 3/8's pins. I have fallen in love with them. When I first started to make cues I was using a 5/16-14 piloted joint; Then I discovered the 3/8-7.5 Radial. Now I use both the Radial and a 3/8-11 stainless and a 3/8-11 Titanium. I believe the hit of the flat faced 3/8's pins give you more feel from the cue ball. <hr /></blockquote>

Is there much of a difference between the steel pins and the titanium? Does it make any difference in the balance of the cue?

Chris

CarterCues
12-24-2003, 11:48 AM
The steel pins will give a little more forward weight. The titanium has a very very slightly harder hit (Which can be changed with tip and ferrule choice.) I personally like the titanium with an Ivory joint and Stainless with a phenolic joint. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Scott Lee
12-24-2003, 11:52 AM
You should try making a cue with the G-10 Epoxy pin, like Cognoscenti uses. The hit with that pin is nothing short of phenomenal. Although I love the hit of the radial pins in my Samsara cues, I plan to have my Samsara boys make me a cue with that G-10 pin next time...and I will NEVER sell my Cognoscenti! LOL

Scott Lee

tateuts
12-24-2003, 12:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Although I love the hit of the radial pins in my Samsara cues, I plan to have my Samsara boys make me a cue with that G-10 pin next time...and I will NEVER sell my Cognoscenti! <hr /></blockquote>

Your Cognoscenti is truly a beautiful and unique cue. I like to see cuemakers differentiate themselves from others, and I respect Joe for managing to do that.

Chris

Cueless Joey
12-24-2003, 12:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Although I love the hit of the radial pins in my Samsara cues, I plan to have my Samsara boys make me a cue with that G-10 pin next time...and I will NEVER sell my Cognoscenti! <hr /></blockquote>

Your Cognoscenti is truly a beautiful and unique cue. I like to see cuemakers differentiate themselves from others, and I respect Joe for managing to do that.

Chris <hr /></blockquote>
It's kinda sad when a ton of cuemakers knock off Joe's cues. Pathetic actually.
I heard Scott drives around and sell those Taiwan made decal cues made to look like Cogs. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I bought a Samsara from Scott. I hope it's real.

tateuts
12-24-2003, 12:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> It's kinda sad when a ton of cuemakers knock off Joe's cues. Pathetic actually. <hr /></blockquote>

A cuemaker I met showed me his cues. The ring design was a blatant copy of a Stroud cue design I knew of in the early 1970's - even down to the exact number of inlays. I told him I had seen this design in a Josswest. Without even flinching he said "he must have copied it from Ernie too!".

Chris

Cueless Joey
12-24-2003, 12:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> It's kinda sad when a ton of cuemakers knock off Joe's cues. Pathetic actually. <hr /></blockquote>

A cuemaker I met showed me his cues. The ring design was a blatant copy of a Stroud cue design I knew of in the early 1970's - even down to the exact number of inlays. I told him I had seen this design in a Josswest. Without even flinching he said "he must have copied it from Ernie too!".

Chris <hr /></blockquote>
That's classic. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
We're not even going to discuss those Szambotti and Balabushka knock offs.
Scott said it best. George made a thousand cues and two thousand of them went to Japan. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Oh, those, those, nasty rumors of cueamakers making fake Szambottis and Balabushkas.
Barbara here gets a dozen Szambottis every year. I have no idea how she pulls that off. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif J/k Barbara.

Barbara
12-24-2003, 12:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr>Barbara here gets a dozen Szambobtis every year. I have no idea how she pulls that off. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Heheheheheheh...

That's MY secret, Bud!!!

Barbara~~~it's the nuts... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Popcorn
12-24-2003, 01:14 PM
The stuff (G 10) is easily attainable and not at all hard to work with, threading and so on. Why don't more cue makers use it in your opinion? How do you define the hit of the cue, it can be quite subjective. Myself, I like a quiet solid hit, no vibration or out of the ordinary sounds coming from the cue. Beyond that I find it very hard to explain what I like in the hit of a cue, I just know when I feel it. When I say hit, that is all I am talking about, not how stiff or whatever. I have played with cues that felt terrible yet made balls, as well as great feeling cues that seemed to have a mind of their own. I once owned a Szamboti that every one thought was a great cue till they played with it for a while. The guy I sold it to had multiple shafts made, (By Szamboti) trying to make it play better but there was just something wrong with the cue. Funny thing was, a few years after Szamboti died. He sold the cue for 20 times what I sold the cue to him for. Of course he had several extra Szamboti shafts (5) to go with it.

Cueless Joey
12-24-2003, 01:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> The stuff (G 10) is easily attainable and not at all hard to work with, threading and so on. Why don't more cue makers use it in your opinion? How do you define the hit of the cue, it can be quite subjective. Myself, I like a quiet solid hit, no vibration or out of the ordinary sounds coming from the cue. Beyond that I find it very hard to explain what I like in the hit of a cue, I just know when I feel it. When I say hit, that is all I am talking about, not how stiff or whatever. I have played with cues that felt terrible yet made balls, as well as great feeling cues that seemed to have a mind of their own. I once owned a Szamboti that every one thought was a great cue till they played with it for a while. The guy I sold it to had multiple shafts made, (By Szamboti) trying to make it play better but there was just something wrong with the cue. Funny thing was, a few years after Szamboti died. He sold the cue for 20 times what I sold the cue to him for. Of course he had several extra Szamboti shafts (5) to go with it. <hr /></blockquote>
The G10 doesn't make a cue hit any better than a 3/8 radial or 3/8 11. As long as the butt and the shaft are tight, you can never tell what kind of 3/8 pin there is between them.

Rip
12-24-2003, 05:24 PM
Great question! I've been experimenting with different "custom" cues in search of "that special hit". I purchased a Capone, Jim Buss, several Omens, Southwest, Scruggs, Olivier, Kikel, Colorado Cues, and a Gilbert. I varied the joints and pins as much as possible. On each cue, I installed a Moori MH on one shaft and a Triangle on the other. I came to several conclusions.

First, anyone can put a large pin in a butt and call it "the Southwest hit". I've found this to be pure BS---IMHO.

Second, some of the "custom" cues hit great but were lacking in the "craftsmanship" department. Not exactly works of art but they produced a nice hit.

Third, I still play like crap, regardless of the cue.

Now, the most humbling experience of all. I wanted to buy a cheap SP to keep in my locker at the LV Cue Club. Recent changes in ownership made me uncomfortable keeping a nice cue there any longer.

So, I purchased 4 Eliminator SP's on eBay for $65--for all four cues. I figured I would put some decent tips on them, put one or two in my locker and keep two at home for guests to use. I replaced the tips on each with a slightly comnpressed LePro and yes, you guessed it, they hit super sweet at a whopping $16.25 per stick! Joint protectors cost more than the freakin' stick, LOL!

I guess my answer to your question would be "I don't have a clue but it might only cost $16.25 to find out". /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Happy Holidays,
Rip

recoveryjones
12-24-2003, 05:27 PM
A good hitting cue is something that I find hard to explain in words. To me its something you have to feel.I took a few hits with my new Foster Custom cue and I knew right away it was the cue for me. That cue immediatly gave me confidence.Confidence as radiated through a cue stick into your hands via your brain is such a beautiful thing.I suggest that you ask to try a few different peoples cues out and sooner our later that cue will say to you ...."Buy me" It sounds strange but bascically thats what my cue said to me.A lot of people really like the way my cue hits, the odd person doesn't. It's a very personal thing.I don't think I'll ever buy a cue again before testing it out.Feel is what you are looking for and when you find it...the cue will tell you so.Don't rely on others to do so, you will know when that meant to be cue is in your hands. Good luck, RJ

BLACKHEART
12-24-2003, 08:22 PM
Rip, you must have a lot of money, to buy those particular Qs. You've listed some of the best Qmakers in the world &amp; found that "SOME" of them were lacking in "CRAFTSMANSHIP". Then, you find that a $16 cue,plays better than all of them. It sounds like a good story, BUT NO MORE. Next time you tell this story, please include my "BLACK HEART" cue in with the best Qs in the world, that you can't play with. I'd be thrilled to be in those Qmakers company. You probably can't play with mine eather...JER

Keith Talent
12-24-2003, 08:32 PM
With all this talk about Samsara, I checked their site and noticed they make a fair number of cues with the uniloc pin ... never liked the look of that, though I haven't hit often with cues using it. Those I did use had a weak-feeling, tinny sort of hit, I thought. Can't see how it would really be snug. Was it all in my mind?

Cueless Joey
12-24-2003, 08:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Keith Talent:</font><hr> With all this talk about Samsara, I checked their site and noticed they make a fair number of cues with the uniloc pin ... never liked the look of that, though I haven't hit often with cues using it. Those I did use had a weak-feeling, tinny sort of hit, I thought. Can't see how it would really be snug. Was it all in my mind? <hr /></blockquote>
All in the mind. The UniLoc's pin is the tightest of any small pins.
Samsara does dowel their cues with maple. Perhaps the doweled maple was too soft for your liking.

Rip
12-24-2003, 09:09 PM
Holy Moley Jer,
Read my post again! I didn't say the cheap SP hit "better". If you consider all of the cues I mentioned to be among the best in the world, I respect your opinion and hopefully you can respect my right to have a different opinion. A couple of those cues absolutely play, look and feel like a work of art from end to end and I'll probably keep them forever. I'm just not as impressed with a few of the others. I'm not the Quality Control Police or the resident cue expert but I am the guy who shucked out the shekles for my cues so those are simply my observations of the cues delivered to my door.

When I compare the ring work, veneers, shaft wood, etc on each cue I have to admit I was a little surprised at how much difference there was in the fit and finish of several of the cues.

As for the money--there's less of it since I bought all of these darn cues! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Jer, it's Christmas "so be good for goodness sake"!

Happy Holidays,
Rip~~seems to have pissed off another CCB cue maker...oh darn! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BLACKHEART
12-24-2003, 09:38 PM
YOU"RE RIGHT RIP,MERRY CHRISTMAS. I guess I kind of got caught up in the names, of the Qmakers you mentioned. I kind of figured, you would have to spend around $6000, if you bought even low end Qs from those Qmakers. I once had 40 Qs with some pretty impressive names on them so you're story sounds good, on second reading. MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL &amp; TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT...JER

Jay
12-25-2003, 10:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> You should try making a cue with the G-10 Epoxy pin, like Cognoscenti uses. The hit with that pin is nothing short of phenomenal. Although I love the hit of the radial pins in my Samsara cues, I plan to have my Samsara boys make me a cue with that G-10 pin next time...and I will NEVER sell my Cognoscenti! LOL

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Ive always wondered about those epoxy pins. When I saw a picture of them, they looked to me like they would be easy to break and if I had one more that like it break. What exactly are they made of and what makes them a good pin?

Cueless Joey
12-25-2003, 11:01 AM
<hr /></blockquote>

Ive always wondered about those epoxy pins. When I saw a picture of them, they looked to me like they would be easy to break and if I had one more that like it break. What exactly are they made of and what makes them a good pin? <hr /></blockquote>
G10 is a glass based phenolic. The usual melamine ferrule is considered a G9. The usual phenolic used in pool cues is linen based phenolic.
G10 at the size of 3/8" isn't that hard to break. They look cool though. Do they contribute to the hit of the cue?
I highly doubt it.

Keith Talent
12-25-2003, 03:28 PM
Joey,

Never hit with a Samsara. The uniloc was on a couple of Vikings I hit with. Could have been other things that turned me off to the hit of those cues, I guess.

Cueless Joey
12-25-2003, 03:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Keith Talent:</font><hr> Joey,

Never hit with a Samsara. The uniloc was on a couple of Vikings I hit with. Could have been other things that turned me off to the hit of those cues, I guess. <hr /></blockquote>
Viking doesn't use UniLoc. They use their own knock-off kind.