View Full Version : Buying new table - Brunswick vs. Connelly
01-06-2004, 12:48 AM
I am looking at purchasing a new table, and after reading information on this board, I have finally narrowed my search to the following two options:
-Brunswick Bradford (www.dannyveghs.com/brunswick/bradford.htm - Brunswick's site was down)
$2399, was originally quoted at $2499
-Connelly Durango (www.connellybilliards.com) part of the Canyon collection
$2000, the MSRP is $2699
Both tables are 7', and the price includes the delivery-setup, and the "beginners" package. Both include lifetime warranty (except on cloth and pockets).
It seems to me the Brunswick starting package is a little nicer. Except that the Connelly dealer mentioned a "free-leveling" 1 yr service included (very nice, considering I just finished the room and the carpet is new, plus the weather of Wisconsin).
Anyway, my price range is $1500 - $2500, and as you can see, the Brunswick price would not allow for any upgrades (cloth, balls and even leather fringes around the pockets).
The Connelly dealer is running a post-Xmas sale, but only thru Friday Jan 9th.
The only other difference is that the Connelly would take 3-4 weeks for delivery (before Super Bowl Sunday), while the Brunswick dealer said "about a week".
Do you guys think that the Brunswick is worth the extra $400 ? Specially since I won't be able to upgrade much from their "beginners" package?
01-06-2004, 07:19 AM
If the company can offer that price during X-mas, why can't they do it the rest of the year? I can't offer you advice on the price but the upgrades are where they make their money. I would stick with the basic package and if you want to upgrade go to Muellers (PoolnDarts.com) and buy from them. They are a whole lot cheaper. What I can help you with is what to look for between the two brands and what's important and what's not.
I briefly looked at the two tables on the web site and could not determine the important differences. For instance, the Connelly uses 3/4" Brazilian or Italian slate backed with a frame. The Brunswick uses Brazilian but doesn't say how thick it is or if it's backed with a wood frame. Ideally you want Italian slate that is 1" thick and backed with solid wood. 1" slate is ideal due to the amount of flexibility it will offer. You don't want it too flexible or too stiff (as with 2" slate). Connelly may promise you Italian and show up at your house with Brazilian slate. It would be up to you to know the difference and call them on it. I know that Connelly uses press board as the wood backing for the slate. This is not ideal because it will crumble after repeated stapling of the cloth. However, this may not matter too much since it won't be recovered that frequently. Some people claim that Brazilian slate is not as good as Italian. I think for a 7' home table it doesn't matter that much where it comes from as long as it is 1" thick and backed with some type of wood. Also, you want 3 pieces of slate as opposed to 1 single big piece. It is easier to level when there are 3 pieces.
The Connelly uses 4 rail bolts and Brunswick uses 3. I would be impressed if you could tell the difference by banking the ball. Connelly will use cheap Tiawanese rubber rails (I don't know if Artemis is an option on this table) and Brunswick will use it's patented SuperSpeed. Some people think the new SuperSpeed doesn't last like it used to. Maybe, but it can't be any worse than cheap Tiawanese rubber. The rail systems will be big selling points for both companies, but I don't think that on this table it matters so don't get caught up in that.
Both cabinets are said to be made of solid hardwood with your choice of finish. If you choose a cherry finish, that doesn't mean you are getting a cheery wood cabinet. It just means you are getting a solid hardwood cabinet with a cherry color stain. Ask what kind of hardwood it is and see if they can tell you. They will probably tell you anything that comes to mind. So take a look at the fit and finish carefully and see what company does a better job. Small things will become more apparant after you have had the table for a while.
Look at the leather pockets. I have seen the leather pockets on Connelly Ultimate tables lose their color and start showing white streaks from wear. It looks horrible. The reason is because the finish on the Connelly pockets is brushed or sprayed on the leather rather than dyed. I do not know how Brunswick does it. Don't overlook this aspect. It will determine how long your table stays looking good.
Last, but not least, find out how long it will take to get your new table delivered and installed. Make sure it is in stock. BTW, the re-level guarantee sounds nice but I wouldn't associated much value to it. A table will settle, especially on new carpet so let them know you are concerned and see what each dealer offers to do about it. Some people will suggest that you place the slate on the table for a week or two before leveling it. That's a good idea but I don't think any of the set-up teams are going to want to come out twice. It costs them money. Instead one person can come out a few weeks later and do a guick re-leveling.
So, weigh the pros and cons and decide which one gives the best value. IMO, fit and finish (including pocket leather), delivery time and service are the most important things to consider for a 7' home table.
Once you have the table don't sit on it, stand on it, stack boxes on it, try to move it a few inches, bang the legs with the vacuum cleaner or anything else. Keep it covered when not in use and treat it like a fine piece of furniture and it will stay looking good for a lot longer.
If I forgot anything the other CCB'ers will let me know. Just remember, this is a 7' home table for family fun and not serious use.
When I shopped for my home table, I only looked for the Brunswick dealer. Then I looked at the tables. If I had room for a 9' instead of 8, I would have looked at diamonds too I guess. The default option is always brunswick.
01-06-2004, 08:03 AM
I have a Connelly and they all play the same and built the same except for the Ultimate and the Canyon series. I would not get the Canyon,....too cheap. The frames on the Connelly's are stout and the rails are the K-66,..not Artemis, but the Ultimate has them.
Connelly is a fine table for the money and Brunswick is a good also but I have heard that there quality on some is questionable. I looked at a cheaper one at Billiard Factory here in Houston and it was thin and plywood in places,...just pure crap. Connelly's are solid 2 inch frame.
01-06-2004, 09:24 AM
Lots of information, thanks.
Both of the dealers said that both tables included the 1" three piece slate. They both said Italian, but I truthfully wouldn't know the difference with the Brazilian slate.
After reading a lot (on both catalogs and websites) I found that the Brunswick is mostly OAK, but they only guarantee hardwood. The Connellys are OAK or MAPLE, the one I was offered is OAK.
Regarding the railing, I couldn't test the Brunswick, since the table I want is not in stock. But the Connelly (he had one that was already sold) seemed great. It was by far the quietest railings I've heard.
Thanks for the comments on the leather pockets, I had not thought about that, I will ask and let you know.
It "seems" both dealers are busy (the Brunswick dealer said they are installing 4 tables a day), but the Connelly would be installed by Super Bowl Sunday, the Brunswick within two weeks. The other important note is that the Brunswick is IN town, while the Connelly is in a town 30 miles away. The Connelly did mention that they will "send somebody to do a releveling if needed".
I also had looked at other tables, but mainly at the Brunswick, however, I had also heard that their lower level tables are not as good, and that their "furniture" tables lack the quality of the commercial ones.
Thanks, and I hope I can make a decision soon.
01-06-2004, 10:24 AM
Check the bottom of the tables.
Feel how sturdy they are.
Check how the rails are bolted. Are the heads and washers of the rail bolts on the bottom of the slate or liner?
I don't like it when they're on the liner b/c they make a sound and are not quite as tight.
01-06-2004, 10:34 AM
Take a close look at the entrance to the pockets,on the Connelly it's somewhat funnel shaped and the sides of the entrance should be nearly parallel.This could complicate shots down the rail.
Call Diamond to see if there is a dealer in your area,the dealer in Louisville sells a 7' Diamond Hortensia(in oak that retails for $2900.)for $2325. with accessories included and delivered within 60 miles,not that this helps you,but it gives you some idea what another dealer could sell one for and if I were in your position,I'd be looking for the $325. to upgrade to a Diamond.
Something else to consider,with the Brunswick,you're paying quite a bit for the name.
01-06-2004, 11:01 AM
Your comment about the Connelly rails being the most quiet in the showroom reminded me that some, if not all, dealers do not install the slate on the floor models. Instead, they use a wood base. The reason is that the slate is too heavy to be moving around as tables come and go. So, if you are comparing the sounds of the tables keep in mind that they all may not be fully assembled and tightened down.
01-06-2004, 11:58 AM
Wow, thanks all for all the great info. I am at work and have not been able to contact the dealers to obtain more info on the tables. I will do that this evening and hopefully be able to post something tonight.
I just wanted to write that I couldn't find a Diamond dealer in Wisconsin, and have contacted them thru their website to obtain information. I looked at the Hortensia table, and frankly it is not my style, I thing it looks too square. They have a couple of "rounder or finer" tables like the Tiffany or the Jubilee. Does anyone know the prices on those?
Also, regarding the rails in the tables, the Connelly table that I tested was fully assembled. The Brunswick, like I said was not in stock. The Connelly dealer made a strong point mentioning that Connelly has the "quietest" rails in the industry, as well as very fast bounce.
Connelly mentions that their whole cabinet is assembled into what they call the UNI-frame, which will guarantee that the slate fits in a perfectly flat surface when installing it. The tables that they had unassembled showed the cabinet as a single piece. Different from other tables that I had looked at where the cabinet had to be assembled before setting the slate.
As somebody mentioned, I want a table that is good for family use (I have a 2 yr old an one more on the way), and that plays well. I'm a decent player, but have never had time to join tournaments (too much traveling). I'm not looking at changing that. Just want a table that I can enjoy with friends and family, and that maybe my kids can learn to play on.
Anyway, it feels to me that both tables are similar enough, and will try to bargain with the Brunswick dealer to include a couple of the extras (cloth, balls and leather fringes upgrade) or go with the Connelly.
Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate all the excellent information.
01-06-2004, 06:15 PM
The 7' Tiffany retails for $3150. and sells for $2425.,the 7' Jubilee retails for $3200. and sells for $2525(there is a possibility these prices have changed since I got this price list).These prices are for a solid oak table,add $100. for maple,$400. for solid cherry or walnut,$500. for solid mahogany and $100 for Simonis 860.Equipment included;4 Dufferin 1 piece house cues,Aramith Premium balls,matching triangle,2 piece wall rack,vinyl dust cover,12" brush,2 piece bridge with solid brass bridgehead,tip repair kit,12 cubes of chalk,B.C.A. rule book,2 smooth stroke and a plastic tally bottle & balls.These prices are from Bryan Roberts' Rack 66 in Louisville.You could come to Louisville for the Derby City Classic and pick up a table and have a local table mechanic set it up(just a thought).
01-06-2004, 07:25 PM
Not to throw more confusion your way, but have you checked out the Kasson tables? I had an opportunity to see one this weekend, and I was really impressed with the frame. They add a little more support than some of the other guys. Here is a link if you want to take a peek:
In regards to the Brunswick table...I just don't know. When I first started looking I knew them simply from name recognization, but the more reviews I hear the more I am leery of them, except their pro lines.
I'd get a Diamond. In fact I did /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
01-07-2004, 12:57 AM
Hey everybody, thanks again for all the help.
I wasn't able to contact either of the dealers today. I will try tomorrow, and update this discussion when possible.
I did contact Diamond Billiards, and I was told they only sell factory direct to Wisconsin. I have requested a couple of quotes, on the tables above mentioned, and an idea on shipping charges, and even recommendation on a local installer. Thanks Lanny for listing an idea of what pricing to expect from Diamond, it has become an excellent option.
Does anybody know what kind of cloth do Brunswick or Connelly come with? About how much should I expect the upgrade to Simonis to be? Both dealers also mentioned that the balls that came in the "beginner's" package were Belgian, but how much would the upgrade be to the best Aramith set? I did find out that the leather fringes can be added for $50.
Also, both packages include two piece cue sticks (4), should I keep those, and purchase a separate (better quality) stick?, which would you recommend in the $100-$200 range. I have access to the Pechauer manufacturer (local here in Green Bay, home of the Packers), which seems to be a good option in that range.
Thanks again for all the help.
01-07-2004, 06:24 AM
Go to this site http://www.mueller-sporting-goods.com/ and make a list of what you want, cues, rack, balls, cover, ... Then compare the quality and price that the dealer is offering and see what makes more sense. Personally, I won't buy anything from the dealer. There mark-up is outrageous.
You could even buy the Granito cloth from Muellers and ask the Dealer if he will install that cloth. The Granito is comparable to the Simonis, and cheaper. You would have to ask before you buy because I'm not sure if they install the rail cloth at the installation site or back at the shop.
The Diamond is not an option the others are options. The Diamond is a necessity! It is superior..in my not so humble and admittedly biased opinion (but I'm still right!).
01-07-2004, 07:58 AM
If I was to get a 7 foot table I would contact amusement companies in your area and get a used bar table for under 1000 that plays as well as any 7 ft table made. If you get an old Irving Kaye model you have hit the jackpot in bar tables. You will spend the rest of your life releveling a small pooltable but that bar table is solid.
If your into looks then carry on with your search ####
01-07-2004, 08:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> The Diamond is not an option the others are options. The Diamond is a necessity! It is superior..in my not so humble and admittedly biased opinion (but I'm still right!). <hr /></blockquote>
Ok Jim, you've convinced me! Also Diamond is having a sale this month, amounts to a little over 10% off.
BTW, their Derby City tables have 1 piece slate. Don't want to rassel with that.
Just found out flooring I ordered won't be in till the end of Feb. Guess I'll get the table and stick flooring around it somehow. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif
01-07-2004, 08:22 AM
Ras, what kind of flooring is it that is on backorder?
01-07-2004, 08:32 AM
Cork glue type. Company took several weeks "checking for stock avalialabity". Then said it was on temorary back order, whatever that means.
Don't like the idea of moving a Diamond Pro around just to put in finish flooring, floor is concrete.
01-07-2004, 08:36 AM
Cork, Nice Choice /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif since you say its the glue type do you mean its the type glued to the floor, or glued together and installed as a floating floor? Either way since they usually come in planks or squares you would probably be able to move the table around just enough to get the floor underneath it without too much trouble I would think.
01-07-2004, 08:50 AM
Glued to floor. Floating type costs more with all the underlayment and I'm concerned about the expansion.
Considering something to lift the table enough to get the tile under it. Ain't the trouble doing that, it's concern over messing up a good $5000 table that bugs me.
Sorry folks, for changing the thread.
01-07-2004, 09:27 AM
I have seen people make wooden "casters" out of a nice oak to put under the legs before. They could be squared and bevelled to look nice, the you could install the cork up to the wood without moving the table.
My appologies alos, didnt mean to get so off topic, but you know how sales people are when someone mentions a product in their field of work /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
01-07-2004, 02:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> The Diamond is not an option the others are options. The Diamond is a necessity! It is superior..in my not so humble and admittedly biased opinion (but I'm still right!). <hr /></blockquote>
well, now, if we're going to talk serious pool tables then that's a different thing. i agree with jims with one small exception...brunswick gc4 is best of all. period. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
01-07-2004, 04:30 PM
OK, I have made some calls and these are the answers for today.
Diamond only sells factory direct to Wisconsin. The table that I like from their website is $2735 for the table and cloth only. That would require me to budget another $300 for shipping and $200 for setup, plus at least $200 for the balls and cues package, which puts the table out of my reach. The lady did mention they are having a sale on their Diamond Pro (beautiful table, just not what I want or can afford!) for $3500.
I stopped by the Brunswick dealer and found out the following.
- Connelly has good quality, but their main selling point can be a disadvantage. Because of the uni-body cabinet, they are harder to setup and level, and to initially bring into the house. This is important to me, because my gameroom is in the basement, and the door is a normal size door, but I have a kitchen "island" counter in front. I would also need to remove my wrought iron railings at the bottom of the stairs. The other thing he mentioned is that Connelly mentions they have four bolts per section instead of the three that are standard, but everything is drilled into the wood, while Brunswick uses steel against steel.
-He will take $100 off the original price of $2499, and add the leather fringed-pockets for free (another $50). It is $75 for the first cloth upgrade (I'm sorry I forgot the type), or $150 for the Simonis cloth upgrade.
-It is $225 for the Centennial upgrade (that I was planning on getting anyway), and Brunswick will start a promotion (on the 17) where if you upgrade to the Centennial package, you qualify for purchasing their "pub table and chairs" for only $250 (retail is $1200). When I mentioned that my bar was custom made, and was completely finished (so I had no space for the table and chairs), he offered a cue-rack with the same discount ($250 from $1200) or a FREE small corner cue rack and ball holder. Anyway, either of the last two offers were from them, not Brunswick.
Still deciding, but seems that Brunswick will be the best deal. I do wish that Diamond was a possibility, so I will continue looking.
Does anybody know how big of an area is needed for transporting a 7' table (unassembled)? I have a T&C minivan, and am not sure if I would need to rent a truck in case I find a good used table in the area.
01-07-2004, 05:29 PM
Brunswick makes a great table, a couple of things you might want to check into though.
$150 for the Simmonis upgrade, a quick check online shows you can get Simmonis for a 7' table for around 116.10 plus shipping. If $150 is for the upgrade I wonder how much he has set aside for the original cloth.
$225 for Centinnial upgrade, can by Centennials online for $169.50. Both of these prices came from just one place I checked, I know they were about the cheapest when I bought my Champion cloth for my table.
Not trying to take money from a local dealer, but as far as the balls go you may be able to take the free balls that come with the table and save some money by getting the centinnials online.
01-07-2004, 07:24 PM
" he offered a cue-rack with the same discount ($250 from $1200)"
Huh? Must be a pretty fancy cue rack.
Somewhere along in here one just has to decide what he wants and go for it.
01-07-2004, 07:45 PM
Hehe, I agree...that must be one heckuva cue rack for a normal price of $1200. And yeah, the other accessories seem overpriced as well. I don't know about there, but here my "Brunswick/Olhausen/Golden West" dealer is high on all their accessories. I agree that online shops might be a better bet.
01-07-2004, 09:03 PM
You shouldn't listen to what the Brunswick dealer tells you about the Connelly,his opinion is biased because he wants the commission.The difficulty of set up and leveling is the dealer's problem,anyway,they should know what they're doing.
Which of the Diamonds did you talk to her about?The prices I gave you were cheaper and included the balls,4 cues,etc.
01-08-2004, 12:40 AM
Hi all, again thanks for all the comments.
Lanny, the table that I was given the price for was the Tiffany, which is the style I liked. I also liked the Jubilee, but she mentioned they didn't have it in a 7'. She is sending a brochure in the mail, but seemed surprised when I "assumed" that the pricing included balls and cue sticks, and was enfatic about the price including only the table in oak and the Simonis cloth.
I realize the salesperson's opinions are biased, but I was not able to get a hold of the Connelly salesman to "compare" his opinion of Brunswick tables. Maybe today (Thursday) he'll call me.
For everyone else, I do realize that all of Brunswick's accessories and furniture are WAY overpriced, but it is nearly impossible to find pricing online for their products.
The only site I found listing MSRPs is "http://www.familyrec.com/prices.htm".
The wall rack is the Windsor, and can be seen here (http://www.familyrec.com/windsorwall.htm) and the pub table and chairs can be seen here (www.brunswickbilliards.com/products/brunswick/ furniture/pub_table_and_chairs.html). The pricing for the pub table and chairs is listed at $1250, and for the Windsor wall rack is $1149, as you can see. Also, looking at these MSRPs you can figure why the price of the Centennial package upgrade (which included upgrade to the Centennial balls, two-piece sticks, brunswick 8 & 9 ball racks and brushes) was given to me as $525 minus $300 (MSRP $629).
Anyway, what I had though about doing was just sticking with the table for $2399, including discount and free upgrade to pockets with leather fringes (they will use some that were in display but not used). Not purchasing the cloth at this time. I would also purchase the Centennial upgrade and get the pub table and chairs, which my wife really liked. I probably will convince the salesperson to throw the free cue rack-ball holder, but if not I will have my grandfather make a combination "dartboard cabinet-cue stick & ball holder" that I have been designing for some time now.
I will wait until my kids are old enough to upgrade the cloth. I would buy separately, and most likely online. Luckily at Xmas I was given a couple of presents that will allow me to teach my kids without using the Centennial package. I received a Coca-Cola two piece cue stick, and a set of NFL Imperial balls. I had also considered getting a "short cue", but might wait until while I evaluate interest from the kids.
Does anybody have an idea who makes the NFL cloth? (http://shop.store.yahoo.com/universal--shopping/daconflbicl.html)
Everybody in my family is a huge football fan, and I mean it as in "we live in Green Bay" kind of fan.
Thanks again, and I'll keep posting with developments....
01-08-2004, 08:37 AM
If someone has mentioned this, sorry, but I didn't see it. That is the reputation of the dealer. I bought a 7' Connelly 1/3/03. Was promised before the Superbowl. Delivered to me 3/12/03. I think we'll all agree, the Superbowl had long been over. When it showed up the finish on the rails did not match the finish on the cabinets and the dealer said they would get me new rails. It's 1/8/04, and although I have been promised 6 different times they (the dealer) will take care of it, as of this typing they have not. In addition, one of the rails arrived with several small cracks/splits. Recently, on that same rail I've noticed a dime sized area where the finish is coming off. I believe I'm covered with Connelly's life time warranty, but so what, the dealer is acting as if this is the only pool table I'll ever buy and doesn't be too interested in helping me. If I had it to do all over, I'd buy a Diamond.
01-08-2004, 09:45 AM
Hi, thanks for the comment.
The dealer I visited carries also Legacy (I hadn't heard of them) and AMF tables. He seemed to be the only one there, and therefore was busy with several customers. He seemed to be the only one (out of 5-6 dealers) that wanted to close the deal right away. Even my wife mentioned that he seemed in a rush to sell the table. I did not trust the fact that I would have my table by SuperBowl Sunday, because he said he had a big order scheduled for then. So, I didn't expect him to deliver and install the table on time, but really wanted the table for a party that I'm having Feb 20. Thanks for the warning since I have a trip scheduled for 2/7, so now I'm sure I won't receive the table even on time for the party.
Regarding your warranty, have you contacted Connelly directly? they have a "contact us" page on their website, and they even list their regular mail address in AZ. Their toll free number is (800) 861-8619. I would give them a call and mention all of the problems and promises you have received. I'm sure they don't want that kind of dealer selling their products.
01-08-2004, 10:04 AM
I suppose she was a little surprised,the prices(with included equipment)I gave you were from a Diamond dealer in Louisville,not the manufacturer.It's common for a manufacturer to sell their product at or near full retail rather than discount and be in competition with their dealers which could cause some tension between the two.This dealer should be able to sell you a table cheaper than his listed prices since he wouldn't have to send a crew to set it up.Send me a private message I'll give you more information.
01-08-2004, 10:14 AM
I have the same opinion as Armandito about calling Connelly directly,I'd let them know how their dealer makes promises that they don't keep.Send me a private message and I will give you the e-mail address and toll-free phone number of Connelly's sales manager for the eastern U.S.
01-08-2004, 10:15 AM
You mentioned that they also carry AMF, have you looked into any of these? I have an old AMF table and I am very happy with it. I dont know if they still do, but I believe Brunswick used to make AMF tables.
01-08-2004, 12:31 PM
No I hadn't followed thru on the AMF table. Like I said, I had not heard about Legacy before, and AMF only on their bowling equipment.
I also found the following brands while shopping around: American Heritage, Quality Billiards, Kasson, and a couple other ones that I can't remember. I did searches for opinions online, and on this site, and couldn't come up with anything on those tables. I found some about Gandy and Diamond, but because they don't have local dealers, I didn't follow thru.
Thanks for your opinion on the AMF tables, I will look at their catalog again and see what I can find out regarding price and maybe more comments on quality and personal opinions.
01-23-2004, 01:52 AM
My opinion is like cars . You can always find one that only has a little age on it for a great price .I would think as you are going to put out the $ that maybe you check the secondary market as there are alot of very very very high quality but in new condition tables for that amount or even less .You have limited yourself to a certain box as to your expenses and for what you have to spend I am more than sure in a cash deal you could set up a custom table at the same price to include a profeesional installer .I was going to buy a olhausen and then I thought a while and checked and ended up with an old bruswick that has lions heads and stuff hand carved into wood and what not all around the table . The measurements of the table were the same as the olhausen and the only change I needed was the cloth at witch I had the installer slap me on some green simonis instead of the red that was on the table . I also am very paticular on my home and required it come from a non smoker and it did as I saw the table before I purchased it . The neat thing is for what I have into the table I can get my money back at anytime and did not take the annitial loss of the purchase of a new table .A pro played a few times on my table and said If I ever get rid of it to give him a call and actually made a offer a little more than I had into it . Hey a few thousand dollars will bring some very nice tables on the secondary market and alot of them being custom work .I would think it over if I were you as there are alot of very very nice tables out there .
02-12-2004, 12:09 AM
hello i got a gold crown 1v last year and boy do i enjoy that table if you have the room dont waste time on a small table it's a lot more fun playing on a larger table
02-12-2004, 12:14 AM
i have a gold crown and its the best table i ever played go brunswick
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