View Full Version : No Disrespect But........
01-06-2004, 09:11 PM
I don't want to put down what pool on TV today is, it is doing good for our sport. However, I'm tired of watching trickshots, 7-Ball, and womens 9-Ball, there needs to be more of men's 9-ball. People in this industry are doing thier parts to get men's 9-ball back onto TV. BCn is doing alot of good producing some of the best of men's pro pool including the U.S. Open, Mosconi Cup and this year's Derby City Classic. The problem is that BCn is only available on the internet or satilite dish which still leaves out a majority of pool fans and future potential fans to increase the poupulairty of the sport. ESPN has looked down on men's 9-ball for some reason, and it takes the support of all you out there, the fans to DEMAND tourny's like the U.S. Open, World Pool Championships, Derby City, Glass City, Windy City, maybe some of the tours going around the country bring back the Johnston City tourny. Mens pro pool has taken much neglect from national TV and it needs to hear the people asking for more coverage. And in the future when a Pro Tour finally comes back, it will be covered on TV again. We don't even need ESPN exclusivly covering pool, USA network, or the Travel Channel, HBO, CBS, there are plenty of channels and networks that could cover it but it will also take major sponsorship. We have a long road ahead of us to get major pool back on TV and it will take all of us to make it happen.
01-06-2004, 09:27 PM
Yeup, lots of folks feel the same way...problem is there is lots of whining and no actual progress. Personally I think it might be neat to see them pitch some type of a pool show to TLC or Discovery Channel about the life of a pool shark (or something similar). Seems people are into stuff like that. Look at how Orange County Choppers, Monster House, Monster Garage, Repo Men, and other shows are taking over. Repo Men is especially entertaining to me. Of course, have lots of air time showing actual pool being played. It isn't exactly what I'd like to see...but it might gain a little more popularity (although it might totally kill the reputation) and force ESPN to show more real tournaments as the popularity picks up.
01-06-2004, 10:30 PM
What a great idea... if they can show motor cycles and cars being built and draw sponsers and viewers, why can't pool?
Cue maker series, leagues and local tournaments, all produced and directed by ... now that's the tough part, WHO would be able to make this interesting to the general viewing public?
Is there a producer and director that has a real GRASP of the "Drama" of competition in the pool world? The artistic view and value of the "CUE" and the process of its creation?
Somewhere out there... someone has the skills, they just need the money and a very good camera crew. IMO another good challenge.
What would a perferred camera view be for the general public?
Great IDEA... /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
01-07-2004, 05:57 AM
If I'm not mistaken, cuechick was going to put together a documentary about women breaking into the WPBA. She was going to interview the top players from the then NEWT tour at its annual NY State 9-ball Championships a few years ago. I wasn't at that event so I don't know whether it got off the ground or what.
But yeah, that would be a start.
01-07-2004, 06:37 AM
`Nearly 40 years ago I had written a piece for the American Billiard Revue in which I said the way to heaven was to follow what the pro-golfers were doing. I was using the logic that when Russia found we had the Atom Bomb they set out to steal our secrets not to invent their own.
Fourty years later they still haven't got a clue, can you imagine pro golfers play each week for nearly 5 million in purse money and they pay no entry fee. Wow Wow Wow. ####
01-07-2004, 06:43 AM
God I forgot to also mention their worth has grown in forty years to over 350 million in the bank and 5 major TPGA golf complexes while the pro men poolplayers still get food stamps. My second attempt at humor today.####
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I don't want to put down what pool on TV today is, <hr /></blockquote> Why would you start out with this quote, it is obvious that will be the point of the rest of your post.
As far as BCn, they are on cable in certain areas also. I have met quite a few new people since moving to Orlando, and when they find out I play pool, they almost always comment on how much pool is on TV lately.
As far as getting more men's 9-ball on TV rather than the women, why don't you open a post requesting Charlie Williams to answer any questions as to why there is not a lot more men on TV. He was the head guy in charge and could not get it done. The women seem to have their act together and are doing something about it. I would rather praise the women for their efforts, than drag down everything because you don't get to see as much of the beloved men's 9-ball.
[ QUOTE ]
And in the future when a Pro Tour finally comes back, it will be covered on TV again. <hr /></blockquote> Give some good examples as to why a TV network should invest in a bunch of men, who cannot even organize themselves.
For the record, in Florida BCn is on Sunshine Network which is a cable station. Yes I have DirecTV but my friend that has cable tapes every single match. So you are at least a tad misinformed.
01-07-2004, 08:24 AM
On of the major complaints on this board about TV coverage on this board has been that pool has been used by ESPN as a filler. Giving credit where credit is due, I was looking at the pool on tv listing in IP this month and noticed a trend...all the pool is scheduled for the most part at the same time slot all month long. A big step forward! Now if they can cut back on the worn out trick shot magic programs we have all seen more than we need.....
01-07-2004, 08:59 AM
Pool will never get any respect with commentators like Mitch Laurance and that stupid pocket camera. Tight Pockets does a good job with their videos. They show the whole match that includes all of the safeties, misses and a view of the whole table. There is none of that fake clapping everytime a player hits the cue ball and that phony cheering before the break. ESPN needs to buy a few of these videos and maybe they will be able to produce a show that will give pool the respect it deserves instead of trying to make it like a side show.
01-07-2004, 09:10 AM
You may over estimate the actual public interest. There has been enough pool on TV over the years to give them a pretty good idea if there is a real market for it. It has nothing to do with pools image or any of that stuff, there is no money in it. It is not a spectator sport. A lot of people like to play, but not watch and no non-player will not watch pool at all except as a brief novelty. The reality is, for the non-player, pool has a very short interest span, after they have seen a few shots, that's about it, they have seen pool. I think it is probably like anything else, to those that really love the game, they can't see how someone else would find it completely boring. It is nice to wish and hope, but pool just is what it is. Pool no fad and is not going to disappear or anything. It will have it's ups and downs like it always had, but being what it is as a game, will never be anything main stream that sponsors will ever have much interest in. Don't look for American Express or Sears to be sponsoring pool any time soon, if ever.
01-07-2004, 09:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote #### leonard:</font><hr> while the pro men poolplayers still get food stamps. My second attempt at humor today.#### <hr /></blockquote>
Unfortunately, D!ck, there's alot of truth in a joke...
Eric >it's a shame
01-07-2004, 10:01 AM
Bowling is an industry, big business, there is money in it, pool is not. Bowling alleys are multi million dollar businesses run by major companies. Pool rooms are small places run by people looking to get a second mortgage on their house to keep it going. Bowling by the way, has proven it's self to be a watchable spectator sport. Bowling also is somewhat product driven as well, from shoes to balls to clothing lines it is big money. Most of the people who play pool, even on a regular basis, don't even own a cue. The numbers put out by the billiard industry I think are phoney as far as how many people play the sport. I think I remember seeing one of their questionnaires and if you played ten times in the last year they had you down as a pool player. This could be ten games of 8-ball at your local bar. I think they over state the number of players by a lot.
01-07-2004, 11:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> You may over estimate the actual public interest...
...they ... find it completely boring. <hr /></blockquote>I've recently asked non-pool-playing family and associates if they like to watch pool on T.V. The overwhelming answer is "NO". It's boring. Period.
So I ask them what could they do to change it so that you would watch it? The overwhelming answer is "NOTHING". It's boring. Period.
My sister-in-law even thinks it's hoity-toity (how the hell do you spell that?)... She thinks it's an elitist game. Like everyone in the audience is arrogant.
Go ahead, ask the non-pool-playing people you know. See what they say... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif
01-07-2004, 11:22 AM
How can somebody say that pool is more boring than golf or bowling to watch? Sure golf has scenery, but if you've seen one golf course, you've basically seen all of them. And as far as bowling goes, it's about as interesting to watch as a snipe hunt, pack of pins, bust them and try and pick off the remainders, all in a straight line alley, boring! As far as the numbers of people who play either of these 3 sports the most, I'll wager that more people pick up a pool cue than either a bowling ball and/or a golf club combined within a year's time. I contend that people who own cues are quickly outpacing those with bowling balls and clubs as well. Too many pool playing venues compared to golf courses and bowling alleys to lend weight to these feelings...sid~~~doesn't buy into this at all
01-07-2004, 01:00 PM
All of the sports mentioned are boring to watch unless you play them yourself. Golf is boring unless you play golf and know how hard it is to do what they do. Lets face it, watching good pool players run rack after rack doesnt mean anything unless you have tried to get to a high level of play yourself, then you can understand what they are doing. I remember a local that was watching a pro in one of our rooms years back. He said the pro doesnt look that good, even he could make those shots! Had no idea it was all about how well he controlled the cueball.
As far as more people playing pool than golf I doubt it, we have one pool room that is empty mutch of the time. Our area has 4 golf courses (only counting nice 18 hole courses, not counting 9 hole courses) that stay busy any time weather is descent. Alot more golfers in our area unfortunatly.
01-07-2004, 01:17 PM
I still figure there to be more bar boxes dotted around the country in every little town, in DQs, in rec centers, taverns, hotels, colleges, even in bowling alley, in each metropolis than any relative number of golf courses. I could be wrong...sid
01-07-2004, 01:40 PM
Thinking of it that way I would agree. The difference may be that all the people playing on the bar tables are just killin time will they drink a few. The people on the golf course are out there because they like to play golf. Although I know a few that cant play golf without drinking beer LOL. So the golfers may still have more interest in their sport and be more willing to watch it on TV.
01-07-2004, 02:07 PM
I would not define the person that mindlessly picks a cue from the wall every so often and plays a few games in a local bar as a pool player. They know nothing about, or want to know anything about the game. They don't watch it, read about it or support it in any way. The sports like golf have loyal money spending fans and players and advertisers know it. I don't play golf, but I live in a area where you can play a different course everyday for a month there so many. People come here and build their vacations around playing golf, adding millions every year to the local economy. Pool is not even on the same planet, when you begin to compare it to other sports such as golf. You may think it is boring to watch, but they would not put it on live for three or four hours if no one was watching. This means either there are more golfers then you think watching, or there are a lot of people that don't play but still like to watch and don't find it boring. The thing is, pool does not have to be as popular as golf to have an audience. There should be a place on TV or cable for it to be shown the right way. I would say if you went into Roger Kings office a few years ago to pitch a show about a dysfunctional family that builds motorcycles, he would have told you, you were nuts. I think there is a nitch market out there, not big, but worth going after. Whos going to do it though?
01-07-2004, 04:37 PM
There are also many people today that have no interest in golf but will watch just because of Tiger Woods. They know that someday they will tell there kids or grandkids that they were watching Tiger set some of the records he is going to set.
[ QUOTE ]
I think there is a nitch market out there, not big, but worth going after. Whos going to do it though?
<font color="blue"> Where have you been? We're doing it!!!
Are we on ESPN? No, but at least we're on cable in Florida and New York and on satellite everywhere else. We're also on every week in Canada on Sports Net. AND... FREE online (http://www.billiardclub.net)
Obviously, you have internet access, so we're available to you whereever you are. And we're broadcasting LIVE online for 9 straight days starting Friday 1/16/04 from the Derby City Classic. (http://www.derbycityclassic.com)
We're funded by a few progressive industry sponsors and a few pool enthusiasts, but mainly by our own pocketbook, with the mission to build pool's very own network. If you have $100 million laying around, we'll be happy to broadcast 24/7 on cable. If not, how about just $9.95 for the Derby City?
[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to put down what pool on TV today is, it is doing good for our sport. However, I'm tired of watching trickshots, 7-Ball, and womens 9-Ball, there needs to be more of men's 9-ball. People in this industry are doing thier parts to get men's 9-ball back onto TV. BCn is doing alot of good producing some of the best of men's pro pool including the U.S. Open, Mosconi Cup and this year's Derby City Classic. The problem is that BCn is only available on the internet or satilite dish which still leaves out a majority of pool fans and future potential fans to increase the poupulairty of the sport. <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue">We premier a brand new broadcast program every week and have been doing so without fail since July 3rd, 2003 and you still find fault in our effort. Amazing. It's just not as easy as you think it is. You turn on the TV and dream, "why can't pool be on the Travel Channel every wed night at 8PM or be like golf....pool's cool, it deserves better" Blah Blah Blah.
Forget "future potential fans," if you want more pool on TV, step up to the plate and put your money where your mouth is, because as mentioned earlier in this post, nobody cares, except pool players. Without the core fan base supporting the effort, it'll never survive.
Maybe this is as good as it gets? "Go sell crazy some place else, we're all stocked up here."
01-07-2004, 10:09 PM
I deleted my comments, No point in being critical I guess.
We have no intention of folding now that we're gaining recognition, just frustrated to hear such negativity all the time. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
$9.95 gets you the Ring Game in its entirety, plus all other matches of the One pocket, Banks and 9-Ball events, on the feature table. That's 20 matches for only $9.95. Plus, you can also expect to see feature segements and behind the scene action.
Read the full story here. (http://www.azbilliards.com/2000pressrelease.cfm?id=237) (We have to post links to other site because this one has never posted our PRs or our TV schedule.)
We intend to expose the event for what it is and let it stand on its own merit.
Hope to see you participate. Please register at BCn. (http://www.billiardclub.net)
01-07-2004, 10:46 PM
It sounds like a good deal I will be signing up for sure. I have high speed cable. Will I be able to see the matches any time or do I have to sit and watch when they are on.
You can watch BCtv anytime, but the live matches are just that. There will be later opportunities to see edited content. Storage and badwidth issues will prevent immediate replays.
I just tried the BCtv broadcast and to my surprise it is not bad on dialup at 56k. Unfortunately someone has bought into the trend to have fast changing scenes and out-of-focus shots in the commercials that seem to be unending but that is very popular today. I find it very annoying and unwatchable. Maybe it won't be so bad if I ever get the sound working. At least I won't have to watch to know when they are over.
I guess I might not be driving to Louisville after all.
BCtv online is the same program seen on cable with 6 commercial breaks. It's simply the format we have to work in for broadcast cable.
The DCC live event will be commercial-free.
01-08-2004, 08:22 PM
I don't golf, bowl, tennis, or jog. The only game I play is pool. I think more people play pool than jog or play tennis yet runners and tennis players make more money than pool players. Even the women in those sports make more than the men pool players. It has to be in the sponsorship. If it is than the beer manufactures need to get behind the pool players because I am sure that the pool players drink more than the tennis players and joggers.
01-08-2004, 09:19 PM
There were discussions on this board 3 or 4 years ago and several CCBers, including myself, emailed the ESPN hotshot in charge of pool programming at that time. He told us that pool programming had terrific numbers. Incredibly, reruns drew as big an audience as first runs. The problem ESPN had with pool programming was that it drew a bad demographic. Namely men outside of the target audience sought by most advertisers on ESPN, the 18 to 34 age group. Recently, however, advertisers have been rethinking their marketing strategies and hopefully this will result in more pool programming. In addition, the fiasco that was the Camel Tour also may have caused some potential advertisers to shy away.
01-08-2004, 09:59 PM
It seems to me a lot of people here are debating whether or not pool is popular enough to draw an audience, or whether people who see pool on tv find it boring without taking into account what we see of pool on TV.
I think that sports create there own interest when well aired, and I have yet to ever in my life to see anything aired that wasn't absolutely pathetic.
When someone comes along who is willing to actually spend the money to try to drum up a market by properly broadcasting top flight pool, with all the bells and whistles and an understanding that even non-players do not want to see the F-ing ball roll into the pocket from a camera mounted in the F-ing pocket, I think, then and only then will pool possibly take off.
Christ, I can barely stand to watch that flaccid crap on ESPN--Laurence Mitchell, Mitchell Laurence whatever that morons name is--god what a nit--the guy has no idea what he's talking about--jabbers on about how hard easy shots are and mouths things he's heard real players say at the wrong time, uses wrong terminology, and the person sitting next to him, Allen Hopkins say, has to correct him almost every time I watch at some point, and no disrepsect to Allen but an involving sportscaster he is not. About as scintillating as mud.
You know, People even if they don't know much about pool will pick up on that they are being patronized and that the person doing the commentary doesn't know what he's talking about. They will consciously or unconsciously pick up that this guy doing the commentary is making it up as he goes along. And when he says what a great shot over and over in that simpering tone anyone would change the channel.
I bet you you broadcast on ESPN a few Accu-Stats matches with Billy and Grady sniping at each other and telling colorful stories and eating chinese food while they tell us real things going on in the match, even if the person watching has no friggin' clue about the subtleties of what they are talking about, they would increase their audience within a week. Not to mention we would be seeing top players playing real games in full. ESPN thinks that they can't show safety play cause that is boring and not eventful. Bull, it's another aspect of the game--think about all the stuff they cut out and you realize that all we see on ESPN is shots going into pockets or bad misses and almost nothing in between. It's static and uneventful and boring and repetitious.
01-09-2004, 06:19 AM
Woody I think your premise about how easy it looks was answered when somone who was watching Mosconi run hundreds said I could do that he never shot a hard shot.####
01-09-2004, 06:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alex_Delodge:</font><hr>
....Mitchell Laurence whatever that morons name is--god what a nit--the guy has no idea what he's talking about...
<font color="blue"> /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I don't think Mitch is as bad as you say but if I hear </font color><font color="red">"Coming from a snooker background, she's very proficient with the bridge"</font color> <font color="blue">one more time, I may hurl /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color>
I bet you you broadcast on ESPN a few Accu-Stats matches with Billy and Grady sniping at each other and telling colorful stories and eating chinese food while they tell us real things going on in the match, even if the person watching has no friggin' clue about the subtleties of what they are talking about,
<font color="blue">LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>
01-09-2004, 08:22 AM
I was thinking about this the other night and would have to agree with much of what you said. Anything shown properly can create an audience. I even saw scrabble on ESPN (I think) one night. Friggin Scrabble!!! How is that for must see TV? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
01-09-2004, 08:38 AM
The purpose of my post was to ask why we can't get the kind of coverage as a friggin' dog show! They have better setups and TV deals then we have. When a spelling bee on ESPN takes up to 2 hours in a prime spot I wonder why can't pool get this kind of attention from a national audience? Where we've come from in the past couple of years has been a great improvement but we're still kept on the back burner for some reason, just a filler spot in between PTI and Sportscenter. And as I'm watching a WPBA tourny I know I've seen about two weeks ago I think we can get more extensive coverage and show something else besides Alison Fisher playing Karen Corr again. IMO........ /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
01-11-2004, 04:56 PM
Dynamics. You've got to have some excitement out there. One of the best matches I can remember seeing on ESPN was a couple of years ago with Corey Duehl (sp?) playing, you could tell he was wound pretty tight, the announcers didn't know how to call him because he wasn't playing super safe and conservative. To get people that just have a casual interest to watch, you have to make them think lightning can strike at any time, that's part of the draw with Tiger Woods, even if he's losing, people watch to see what new miracle he might pull off.
01-12-2004, 11:21 AM
I think pool on tv is more exciting than
the NBA. As Bobby Knight once said" I would
rather watch 2 mice f... on a fuzzy screen
than watch the NBA."
01-13-2004, 09:29 AM
Sid, with all due respect, do you realize there are over 350,000 golf courses in the United States alone? Then if you start counting the number of golfers per foursome teeing off every ten minutes every day of the week (depending on where you live, warm or cold climate). Then mutilply that times $35.00 - $125.00 for tee times you're talking big bucks. Then throw in the fact they are building new courses everyday and we haven't even talked about product sales.
Pool has a long way to go.
01-13-2004, 05:36 PM
350,000 golf courses in the United States? That number just sounded ridiculous. That would mean roughly 1 golf course per 814 persons.
There are around 15,000 golf courses in the US
01-19-2004, 09:54 AM
Alex - I stand corrected. That number was provided to me without validation. The number I was able to come up with was 17,100+.
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