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RUNaRAK
01-15-2004, 06:44 AM
The following review is one that a poster left on RSB.. It is the first feedback that I have seen on the Billiards workbook. This is NOT my review, nor is it my opinion. I am just passing it on for those who do not subscribe to RSB..

"http://www.billiardsworkbook.com/
[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red">
I got this thing in the mail today (a couple of days late after paying
for fast delivery) and have only skimmed through it, but that's enough
to know that it's not worth anything near $150 -- it may not be worth
much at all.

The VAST majority of the "over 1,000 drills" are duplicates of the same
shot setup at different distances. I doubt that there are 50 distinct
"drills" -- really just setup practice shots that you could easily dream
up yourself, and definitely don't need full page diagrams to understand.

If you like unimaginative, tedious, repetitious practice shots, need ten
pounds of diagrams to show you all the possible cue ball and object ball
positions and have $150 you don't like, then you might like this albatross.

I'll probably keep the 50 pages that aren't filler, throw away the rest,
and never look at the 50 pages again either.

By the way, it wasn't my money so I'm not upset about that, although
anybody who buys this should be.
PJ Chicago" <hr /></blockquote> </font color>

woody_968
01-15-2004, 08:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RUNaRAK:</font><hr> The following review is one that a poster left on RSB.. It is the first feedback that I have seen on the Billiards workbook. This is NOT my review, nor is it my opinion. I am just passing it on for those who do not subscribe to RSB..

"http://www.billiardsworkbook.com/
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
<font color="red">
I got this thing in the mail today (a couple of days late after paying
for fast delivery) and have only skimmed through it, but that's enough
to know that it's not worth anything near $150 -- it may not be worth
much at all.

The VAST majority of the "over 1,000 drills" are duplicates of the same
shot setup at different distances. I doubt that there are 50 distinct
"drills" -- really just setup practice shots that you could easily dream
up yourself, and definitely don't need full page diagrams to understand.

If you like unimaginative, tedious, repetitious practice shots, need ten
pounds of diagrams to show you all the possible cue ball and object ball
positions and have $150 you don't like, then you might like this albatross.

I'll probably keep the 50 pages that aren't filler, throw away the rest,
and never look at the 50 pages again either.

By the way, it wasn't my money so I'm not upset about that, although
anybody who buys this should be.
PJ Chicago" <hr /></blockquote> </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

People like this amuse me /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif He has just gotten the book, hasnt really read anything in it, let alone actuall follow some of the drills, and already basically says its a load of crap. Having not seen anything about the book myself I am totally guessing here, but Im sure its like anything else. If you use it its good, if you dont its not /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

JohnnyP
01-15-2004, 09:35 AM
We all know homework is no fun. Unless you are a natural, you've got to put in your time.

Thumbs up to Dr. D.

Popcorn
01-15-2004, 09:56 AM
OUCH!!! Hope Dr. D. has thick skin.

pooltchr
01-15-2004, 10:05 AM
Only skimmed through it, but made a conclusive statement about most of the drills being duplicated..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

It looks like someone found the information and associated work involved overwhelming, and just decided to trash it.

The only useless information, is information that isn't used! Obviously this reviewer is already such a knowledgable person that they don't need to learn anything new.

Eric.
01-15-2004, 10:16 AM
I'm gonna throw in my typical like-i-see-it opinion...

I don't know much about the Billiards Workout, I haven't read it.

The 'review' made on RSB is the first opinion on the book and was made by a "player" with a dubious reputation;
I don't know Pat Johnson personally, but he is one of the reasons I dont hang at RSB. I've been told (by 2 people whom I respect their opinion) that this guy Pat can't play much, never competes in tournaments and mostly plays in the vacuum of his own house.

Now I dont have any vested interest in the Doc D's book nor am I here to bash Pat, I just want to make my point-1 opinion does not the world revolve around. Consider the source.


Eric &gt;we will now return to our regularly scheduled program /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

DoomCue
01-15-2004, 10:38 AM
Eric,

I was going to post something similar to yours. For those of you who don't know who Pat is, you have to take what he says with a grain of salt. I would not base the decision to buy the Workbook solely on his (non)recommendation, nor on any one person's opinion. I would definitely look for someone else's thoughts (although who knows, Pat may be right on with his review).

-djb

Popcorn
01-15-2004, 10:43 AM
RunaRack
in all fairness you should delete this post.

Rich R.
01-15-2004, 10:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RUNaRAK:</font><hr> The following review is one that a poster left on RSB.. It is the first feedback that I have seen on the Billiards workbook. This is NOT my review, nor is it my opinion. I am just passing it on for those who do not subscribe to RSB..

<font color="blue">Would you have submitted this review if it was a good review. Somehow, I'm getting the feeling you would not. It seems you have been trying to trash this book for a while now. </font color>

"http://www.billiardsworkbook.com/
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
<font color="red">
I got this thing in the mail today (a couple of days late after paying
for fast delivery) and have only skimmed through it, but that's enough
to know that it's not worth anything near $150 -- it may not be worth
much at all.

The VAST majority of the "over 1,000 drills" are duplicates of the same
shot setup at different distances. I doubt that there are 50 distinct
"drills" -- really just setup practice shots that you could easily dream
up yourself, and definitely don't need full page diagrams to understand.

<font color="blue">Just what did this guy think a workbook of drills would be? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif </font color>

If you like unimaginative, tedious, repetitious practice shots, need ten
pounds of diagrams to show you all the possible cue ball and object ball
positions and have $150 you don't like, then you might like this albatross.

I'll probably keep the 50 pages that aren't filler, throw away the rest,
and never look at the 50 pages again either.

<font color="blue">The next time this guy wants to throw money away, someone give him my address and tell him to send it my way. </font color>

By the way, it wasn't my money so I'm not upset about that, although
anybody who buys this should be.

<font color="blue">Who's money was it? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif </font color>
PJ Chicago" <hr /></blockquote> </font color> <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="blue">For the record, I have had some experience with the Billiards Workbook. It is not something you can skim over and determine its value. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Is the Workbook large? Yes, very.
Are there a lot of drills it? Yes.
Are some drills variations on others? Yes.
Would you get board if you did nothing but practice the drills in the Workbook?
Is the Workbook the "Holy Grail" of pool? No.
If you practiced the drills in the Workbook, with proper instruction, would your play improve? Yes, and that is the goal, isn't it? /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif </font color>

SpiderMan
01-15-2004, 10:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote RUNaRAK:</font><hr> The following review is one that a poster left on RSB.. It is the first feedback that I have seen on the Billiards workbook. This is NOT my review, nor is it my opinion. I am just passing it on for those who do not subscribe to RSB..

"http://www.billiardsworkbook.com/
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
<font color="red">
I got this thing in the mail today (a couple of days late after paying
for fast delivery) and have only skimmed through it, but that's enough
to know that it's not worth anything near $150 -- it may not be worth
much at all.

The VAST majority of the "over 1,000 drills" are duplicates of the same
shot setup at different distances. I doubt that there are 50 distinct
"drills" -- really just setup practice shots that you could easily dream
up yourself, and definitely don't need full page diagrams to understand.

If you like unimaginative, tedious, repetitious practice shots, need ten
pounds of diagrams to show you all the possible cue ball and object ball
positions and have $150 you don't like, then you might like this albatross.

I'll probably keep the 50 pages that aren't filler, throw away the rest,
and never look at the 50 pages again either.

By the way, it wasn't my money so I'm not upset about that, although
anybody who buys this should be.
PJ Chicago" <hr /></blockquote> </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

People like this amuse me /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif He has just gotten the book, hasnt really read anything in it, let alone actuall follow some of the drills, and already basically says its a load of crap. Having not seen anything about the book myself I am totally guessing here, but Im sure its like anything else. If you use it its good, if you dont its not /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Woody,

Actually, he did not say it was a load of crap, he said it was a lot of duplication. I interpreted his review to mean that he feels the "1000 drills", rather than being unique, contain much duplicative filler and could be greatly condensed without losing much utility. He just didn't say it in a really tactful way.

I think the book "99 Critical Shots", by Ray Martin, is an excellent reference. If Ray had decided to add 901 more and call it "1000 Critical Shots", my opinion of his text would be diminished if the added material did not present a substantial number (9X?) of additional concepts. It would actually be less useful, as I'd have to condense the material myself to isolate the unique ideas into a manageable group. This appears to be PJ's complaint. BTW, I don't know PJ or Dr D, or their relative playing credentials.

SpiderMan

Steve Lipsky
01-15-2004, 11:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Only skimmed through it, but made a conclusive statement about most of the drills being duplicated..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

It looks like someone found the information and associated work involved overwhelming, and just decided to trash it.

<font color="blue">I am curious as to how you came to this conclusion, based on what Pat wrote. Your above statement is much more assuming than Pat's review was. </font color>

The only useless information, is information that isn't used! Obviously this reviewer is already such a knowledgable person that they don't need to learn anything new.

<font color="blue">I don't see how you can make this statement, either. What from Pat's review makes you think this? Or are you just making a kneejerk, reactionary response to someone who just did not like the book? You are saying that someone who dislikes the presentation or doubts the usefulness of a lesson feels he has nothing to learn on the entire subject. This is just silly.

I have not seen the Billiards Workbook, so I can't have any intelligent comment on it. I can tell you that my gut thinks Pat is right; you simply can't have 1,000 drills and not have many of them be very similar. But I haven't seen the book and hope I am wrong.

One thing about Pat. He is a strong-opinioned person, but I think he's gotten mostly a bad rap so far here. And notwithstanding that, I don't think his review on the book should be put up to character-review. He brought up valid points and backed them up. Whether you or I agree with them is not at issue; what is the point is that his post at least tried to defend his opinion. Blindly calling someone a "know-it-all" simply for disliking this book is a little on the defensive side.

- Steve </font color><hr /></blockquote>

woody_968
01-15-2004, 11:39 AM
Spiderman, after re-reading the post I see your point /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

He does say that several drills are small variations of other drills, without seeing the book we dont know if this is good or bad. It is possible to have several drills very similar, but with small changes can have a big effect on the drill itself. Like some of Kinisters workouts (I know some dont like his drills either) small changes in cueball position totally changes the shots, but gives a fairly organized practice routine.

I dont have ties to Dr D or the person that did the review either, I just found it curious for someone to post so quickly that its not worth the money after just giving it a quick flip through.

Popcorn
01-15-2004, 12:19 PM
It is very difficult to review a book that sells information. Except as it applies to them, one would have to be a qualified expert themselves to judge the value of the information being offered. There is nothing more valuable then information though. For some, if there is one or two useful pieces of information they feel was well presented and of value to them, it may be worth the whole price of the book and anything else is a bonus.. Many private lessons may often cover one thing or address one problem a student is having in a given lesson, yet the student is willing to pay $50.00 for that one piece of information. Non of us have seen the book yet, but in the case of this review, whether he is qualified or not, by his own admission he did not even make an effort to honestly evaluate the information.

Scott Lee
01-15-2004, 12:42 PM
I agree with you Steve! I DO know Pat Johnson personally, and have played with him several times around Chicago. Despite what was said about his ability (which I don't happen to agree with), he is a knowledgeable player, a nice guy, and loves the game as much as we all do here! I don't hang around RSB, so I don't his politics over there.

I haven't seen the BW either, but there is truth to what poolteacher said also...that only unused knowledge is worthless. There may be some duplicity. I don't know how you couldn't, and come up with 1000 drills! LOL Personally, I rely on about two dozen...and most students only see the first 5 (which are the elements of a very powerful game!). However, I'd like to see the BW for myself, which I plan to do at the next opportunity.

Scott Lee

Wally_in_Cincy
01-15-2004, 12:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> .... For some, if there is one or two useful pieces of information they feel was well presented and of value to them, it may be worth the whole price of the book and anything else is a bonus.. ...<hr /></blockquote>

I once spent $120 on Bert Kinister tapes. I got more than one or two pieces of information, not much more though /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Was it worth it? Those little bits of information have won me a few pool matches, so yeah, probably.

Doctor_D
01-15-2004, 01:37 PM
Good afternoon:

Below, please find the content of an E-Mail which was issued today to Mr. Johnson. It is not my intent to commercialize the CCB however; in light of his discontent and our desire to have satisfied customers, we thought that it was appropriate to remind Mr. Johnson of his options since we do provide for a 100% money back satisfaction guarantee to all purchasers.

Dr. D.




Good afternoon Mr. Johnson:

Your review of The Billiards Workbook, which was posted on the RSB, has just been shared with me by one of the contributing editors of the publication. I am sorry to hear that you are not satisfied with your purchase.

Mr. Johnson, if you are that dissatisfied with the product, and you believe that there is little benefit to be derived from the publication, please return the publication in saleable condition and a 100% refund will be issued. Additionally, I would like to know why you chose not to address your dissatisfaction directly to us as we do have a published refund policy which can be found on The Billiards Workbook WebSite.

Please package the workbook, in the same shipping container and in saleable condition, and return for a 100% refund of the purchase price AND the shipping costs.

Sincerely;

Dr. Diana Elaine Sorrentino

RUNaRAK
01-15-2004, 02:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> <font color="blue">Would you have submitted this review if it was a good review. Somehow, I'm getting the feeling you would not. It seems you have been trying to trash this book for a while now. </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

To answer your question Rich R. Yes, I would have absolutely posted it had it been a good review as well. I have only asked the opinions of others regarding this book, never bashing Dr. D or the workbook.
I thought that this forum was to ask questions and get feedback from others. I have only asked if anyone else has purchased the book and another post, I mentioned the price and wanted opinions from others as to whether or not they would pay it..
<font color="red">
Just passing on one review because no one here has given yet. </font color> I hope to read many opinions but I want to hear from many others and what they think. I may even purchase it for myself one day??? Who knows!
I have nothing personal against Dr. D or the book. I just want to see what others say about a product before I spend my hard earned money.
If I offended anyone, it was not my intention. This post has had plenty of others agreeing and disagreeing with Pat..
Life must go on..

jjinfla
01-15-2004, 02:06 PM
Everyone is looking for the Holy Grail. Well, people, the only way to get better at pool, or anything else in life, is to put in a lot of hard work. Whether or not Dr. D's book is worth the $159 plus another $40 for shipping I don't know, but one thing I do know is that if there are drills in there and you master them, then your game has to improve. However, if you just read about them then you are just wasting your money. And if you are doing the drills and keep telling yourself, "that's close enough" then you really are not "mastering" the drills and are wasting your time.

I have purchased, read, studied and watched a whole lot of books and videos over the past five years and they all helped me. There are so many excellent works out there it is mind boggling.

For my money Blackbelt Billiards by Steve Campana was the best investment, to date, that I have made. My game has really improved to where I am probably pretty close to a "B" player. And that is not bad for an old man who started late - five years ago. But this manual may just have tied all the other books and videos together and turned on the light bulb.

I also believe that it is the B and lower player that will receive the most benefit from these teaching aids. A player at the "A" level, or above, should, in my opinion, find a good instructor who can develop a lesson plan designed for him/her with drills that are specific to his/her deficiencies.

And last night I came in 1st in the local 8-ball tournament beating a couple guys I know who came in to rob it. And made the 8-ball on the break (twice) to win that pot. So tomorrow we eat Steak and Lobster.

LOL

Jake
-25-

Wally_in_Cincy
01-15-2004, 02:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Everyone is looking for the Holy Grail. Well, people, the only way to get better at pool, or anything else in life, is to put in a lot of hard work.

<font color="blue">Cappelle wrote "There is no big secret, just a lot of little secrets." </font color>


And last night I came in 1st in the local 8-ball tournament beating a couple guys I know who came in to rob it.

<font color="blue">Believe it or not, I have done that once or twice (literally /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ). It makes all the hard work worthwhile. </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

Iowashark
01-15-2004, 02:40 PM
I was going to stay out of this one, but I'm not good at not meddling.

As far as I can tell, this book is a contribution available to pool players who want to get better. No one is forcing you to buy it, someone just made it available to you. 1000 pages or 1000 drills (I'm not sure which it is) obviously means a lot of work was put into this book. I will wait until I can read more than one review to buy it, and I'm sure most of you know, a review is no more than an opinion. Last I checked everyone was entitled to one. My hat is off to Dr. D for making this drill book available to everyone who feels it will help their game. Actually I don't wear hats that often, but you know what I mean. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

pooltchr
01-15-2004, 03:22 PM
O-K, Steve. I don't know the reviewer, but someone who admits they just skimmed through it, and then writes a review like that isn't being fair. I haven't seen the book, so I am not going to pass judgement. Most drill books require some application on the part of the reader/user. Until someone trys them out, it would be difficult to pass judgement.

Maybe I drew some unfair conclusions about the reviewer, for which I apologize, but the book is a tool, and until it has been used, I don't see how anyone can pass judgement.

eg8r
01-15-2004, 03:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I just want to see what others say about a product before I spend my hard earned money.
<hr /></blockquote> Is this to say someone else may not be using their hard earned money? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Go buy the book and give us a review, if you were not satisfied, return it for a 100% refund.

eg8r

Cueless Joey
01-15-2004, 03:37 PM
I can't even finish the Monk's Lessons, Scott's drills, Barenada's free drills, Black Jack's free drills and Kinnister's 60-minute workout.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Those are enough for one year.

Popcorn
01-15-2004, 04:42 PM
He said he never even paid for it and admits he did not even read it. Only he knows why he made the post. You are going to get good and bad reviews though, that is the nature of the beast. I have to ask you, on your web site, some of your information consists of defending the price of the book before anyone has even said anything about the price, I found that strange. It is not what I think I would have done. I would not even mention it except where you order the book. I am in business and I don't pre-defend my prices or practices. The final value is up to the customer, some will think it is a bargain, others will not buy at any price. A book at that price though, really puts it in a limited, select market, and someone that pays that much is going to feel they have a license to complain if they are not completely satisfied for what ever reason. So I would not be surprised if some people give you a headache. Anytime you deal with the public you can rest assure there will be some problems, although I don't think this gentleman really gave you a fair chance.

woody_968
01-15-2004, 06:29 PM
Popcorn, when I read the site I did not percieve it as defending the price, but more as justifying the price. And justifying the price is what sells merchandise /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Popcorn
01-15-2004, 06:52 PM
You may be right, but If they feel the price is a hurdle right in the beginning that they have to justify it, then they have a problem right out of the box. I think the price has so limited the market as to make the book almost unsellable to the average player. If the original intent was to help players improve their game, the price defeats the intent, it becomes a luxury for those who can afford it and leaves the average person out. I wish them luck but if in the planing stage they considered what the book would ultimately have to sell for, they may have been better off either breaking the book in to several books or just scaling it down so it would be more affordable to more players. It is a balance of what the market will bare. You can always raise the price of an item, the public understands that, but when you have to lower the price it looks bad. There is a lot to consider before bringing a product to market.

woody_968
01-15-2004, 07:37 PM
I agree the price will limit the market, especially considering a book pretty much directed towards drills is to an already limited market. Most people are looking for that little secret hidden in some book that will make them run racks, not for a book with more drills than you can shake a stick at. I will probably look very seriously at the book, but I enjoy doing drills and I like the way it is broken out into specific areas for the game. Like shot making, or position play, I think it would be helpfull to just flip to the tab and find different drills to work on these areas. Not saying that information isnt out there to already do this, but to have it all in one book would be nice. I am in the minority for sure as far as this type of thinking, and what one may be willing to pay for a book like that.

I hope that didnt come out wrong, I am sure not saying I am better than anyone else, just that it takes a certain kind of thought process to consider such a book. Some learn more by pictures, some learn more by words type of thing.

Harold Acosta
01-15-2004, 07:59 PM
Any other review besides this one?

The price of the book is pretty steep. Maybe Doctor D could have introduced the book with a special introductory offer and then go on setting a new price once the book was reviewed by experts and the public in general.

We will just have to wait and see......

Ralph S.
01-16-2004, 12:37 AM
Based on the one mediocre reveiw, and all the respondants to the said reveiw, I would not purchase at that price either. I would rather wait and get some other feed back, or maybe wait and see if Dr.D does some type of promotion about why the book would be worth the expense.

She is the one wanting to make a dollar or two. Every product, no matter what type, has to have a selling point and some form of advertisement. Maybe Dr.D can "sell" to us why it would be beneficial.