View Full Version : Should I buy it.
01-17-2004, 07:15 AM
Ok the local dealer is pushing a new american heritage http://www.americanheritagebilliards.com/catalog/product.cfm?productID=43
delivered and setup with a balls and sticks for 1800 (out the door). Lifetime guarantee.
Should I take the deal or pass.
Buying used sounds like a whole lot of hassle to me and I dont have time for all that.
01-17-2004, 11:28 AM
Ok guess Im gonna go buy it.
01-17-2004, 11:40 AM
Wow, $1800 looks like a terrific deal to me - that's incredible!
01-17-2004, 11:55 AM
A 2k discount... Go for it!! Thats a heck of a deal....
01-17-2004, 12:55 PM
If its a slate table and ya like it, sounds like your not gettin hurt.
But ya gotta question a pool table company that calls cloth pool table felt /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
01-17-2004, 02:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote kyhogan:</font><hr>
Should I take the deal or pass.
Buying used sounds like a whole lot of hassle to me and I dont have time for all that. <hr /></blockquote>
I would buy it in a heartbeat,IMHO only Simonis cloth would make it play better.
01-17-2004, 02:09 PM
I would buy it in a heartbeat,IMHO only Simonis cloth would make it play better. <hr /></blockquote>
I agree on the Simonis cloth, might as well have him install it during the setup and I try and get him to upgrade you to a set of Centennial or Aramith balls for that beautiful table.
That is good deal!
If it's slate I'd go for it. Ask for upgrade to Simonis 860
01-17-2004, 11:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> .
But ya gotta question a pool table company that calls cloth pool table felt /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>
my thoughts exactly. but it does sound like a great deal. and i agree with everyone else, upgrade to simonis 860.
I don't see anything at the site about slate thickness. It appears they do not use a wood backing on the slate. The double center beam is probably to compensate for a thin slate and the lack of a backing.
It might be a good idea to see how thick the slate is. The BCA specs. require one inch with a wood backing attached. That is just a recommendation for "professional tournament size tables" and I doubt very much you will get that with this table.
I would be reluctant to buy a table with 3/4 inch slate and if this one has at least 7/8 inch it would be better.
It would probably be a fine home table but you might want to play on one to see how to close to professional quality it plays. There's no telling what they have come up with in the rail design using their own rubber instead of rubber from any of the established manufacturers. If you like how it plays it looks like a good deal but this discount might just be a marketing stunt.
01-18-2004, 08:50 AM
What's your personal "pool era" today? Are you competitive and want a table for personal work on your game, or is the wife involved in a furnature buy as well? What I am saying is that if you are buying the table purely for YOUR billiard career to become the best you can become, then you might pass and get specs on a table matching the commercial grade tables. This one probably plays fine in most regards, so if your interest is somewhere between "I'd like a home table" and "I could practice at home but have fun mostly", then I can't see anything wrong in buying this table. I'd wait though if you really want a supreme roll in your new table. The $1800 delivered and setup is a seemingly good price, I just have no experience with this maker's table, nor the true meaning of their MSRP. You just might have a high retail storefront selling an overly inflated MSRP item.
Like I said, it depends mostly on what you are really buying it for...sid
01-18-2004, 02:12 PM
Looks like a great deal. Just curious, how thick is the slate? Also, is a 3 peice? Never know?
01-19-2004, 05:59 PM
Wow thanks for the feed back guys.
It's strictly home use; just for fun. It comes with a 1 inch 3 piece slate (though it feels like a skinny 1 inch. What I just found out is that the showroom table is a 2001 model and only has a center main beam and not the dual main beam. The slate bed is suppose to be a composite material and look pretty good although now that I know it's an older model I'm gonna go look at the actual slate bed.
Yes it's a piece of furniture as much as it's a pool table. I wouldn't know a good rollin table if I played on it all year. As long as the balls roll straight that's all I would know.
01-19-2004, 06:14 PM
Ok more information.
yes the one in the showroom is an older one and has less of a warranty (only 5 yrs) because of the single main beam. But the Boston model on the website above comes with the dual main beam and a lifetime warranty. It will cost me $200 more but think I'll get it.
It does come with 1" diamond honed slate, apparently from Austria not Italy though it's suppose to be the same mountain. Yes I'm a sucker and believe most anything!
Well before I buy I'll go check with the brunswick dealer.
01-19-2004, 06:43 PM
I agree that the $200 for the lifetime warranty, double beam construction & a BRAND NEW table is worth it. The one thing I don't like is the dealer has a composite bed on the showroom table. I would make darn sure the table you buy has SLATE. Speaking of which, I wasn't even aware that Austria produced slate. Italy and Brazil are your 2 main producers, and China just recently entered the picture. First time I have heard of Austrian slate. Be careful!!! Also, if you are going to order this table, make sure you get in writing it is 1" slate, not 3/4" or 7/8" that they are passing off and make them understand you want a refund if they ship anything thinner than 1". I only mention this since you said it felt "thin".
Personally for the $2000 you are going to dump on that table, I would much rather get a Kasson. It too has the double beam construction running lengthwise down the table, along with 1" framed slate (3 pieces). And construction of the frame is ROCK SOLID, perhaps the best I have seen. The table I saw was The Bently, and the Kasson dealer was offering it for $1900, which included a beginners pack & delivery/setup. Here is a link to Kasson's website for more info:
And I don't mean to sound pessimistic about Brunswick, but don't be fooled by their good name. Many of their lower to mid priced are nothing short of junk. Look at the frame construction of different tables, and you will see what I mean. I know the Kasson I looked at blew the Brunswick out of the water. Now if you get a Brunswick Gold Crown table, I will shut my trap as those are EXCELLENT tables, but they also come with HEFTY price tags. Just my point is they got a good name and sell some lesser than desirable quality for a higher premium. I can't blame them for doing it from a business standpoint, but it infuriates me as a consumer.
Anyhow, best of luck on your table search. Don't be in a rush to make a decision. And make sure you thoroughly check out your options. I agree that buying a used table can take more time and sometimes be as costly as a new table, if you don't know what to look for or how to set one up. On the other hand, you can find some real deals if you exhibit some patience and willingness to learn. I bought my Golden West for $750, and moved & set it up myself. The table was $2k brand new, so you see how much I saved. The beauty is the table isn't even 2 years old. I can live w/ not having a new table for the money I saved. I can put that saved money towards a better cue..hehe. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
01-19-2004, 07:19 PM
Ok, they have Kasson also! The composite bed I was referring to is the frame or backer board the slate sits on. Kasson has a three peice composite backer board and American Heritage has a 1 peice (the dealer says the 1 peice is better). In fact American Heritage builds the entire top of the table at the factory and ships it whole put on the legs slate and felt and presto you have a table. Dealer says thats better(assuming you have plenty of space to get table inside). I am still wondering!
For both American Heritage and Kasson the dealer supplies their own slate. As far as the place of origin when he said not from italy I said where china and then he came up with austria. Though I wasn't convinced he was certain. Here are some sources of slate; Vermont, Pennsylvania, Virginia and Arkansas, and is also present in other countries such as Wales, Spain, China, Korea, Italy and Brazil
01-20-2004, 02:39 PM
Kasson it is.
01-20-2004, 06:36 PM
I'm a little confused by what you mean having a 1 piece and 3 piece composite backer. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif The actual slate itself can come in 1 or 3 pieces. Most prefer the 3 piece as it is easier to move (due to weight & size) and also easier to shim up to get that perfect level playing field. The 1 piece slate is more common in smaller bar tables. Some people argue that 1 piece slate is better, but the majority (guessing 80% or more) of us thinks the 3 piece slate is better.
Now in addition to the slate itself, there is what they call a slate liner. Basically it is a 4" wide (3/4" thick) piece of wood that creates a picture frame effect around the outside edges of the slate. One key thing to remember about this slate liner is that it is used to staple the cloth to hold it secure. Therefore, you will be better off with a plywood liner. Sometimes a company will try to give you a particle board liner, which is "okay" if you don't end up re-clothing your table too much. The reason being is that, as you are probably aware, everytime you staple the cloth, you create a small hole. Well if you replace your cloth enough times, you end up with a plethora of tiny holes. This takes a detrimental long term effect on the particle board causing it to break. The plywood will simply last longer, and is what is desired.
Now that you know what a slate liner is...you need to know how different companies go about making them. Most companies will simply create the picture frame effect on the bottom side of the slate by GLUEING the wood directly to the slate; therefore, if you move a slate piece, the slate liner is going with it. Golden West (and I think American Heritage from the few pictures I could see) do it slightly different. They use close to an 8" wide slate liner (again, 3/4" thick), and attach it directly to the table top and support beams. So in essence, when you pick up the slate to move it...you are picking up slate only. Then once the slate is placed on the table, you get the same effect as the first option I noted.
The 3rd option used is what Olhausen does and they claim it to be far superior in strength. Essentially they do the exact same thing as the Golden West tables except they use a slightly narrower piece that is about 5-6" wide (they call this a "UniLiner") PLUS they also glue the 4" slate liner directly to the slate. They have test results showing it to hold twice the weight of a normal table, but it should really be taken with a grain of salt.
I think all are about equal to be honest, but at least you know the differences. Perhaps having all this info, you can better make me understand what you meant by a 1 or 3 piece composite backer board.
As far as the entire top being assembled, I am unsure if the Kasson ships from the factory pre-assembled or not. But I do suspect you can take it apart as they use a 4 piece fancy dowel system to hold the pieces together. I can see advantages to both systems. The nice advantage of being able to take it apart is if you ever move into an area that will not allow you to move it in whole.
Lastly, in regards to the slate, I realize their are several sources for slate, but I think the primary difference is the locations having the proper equipment to hone it down to the tolerances required for a pool table. At least I know that was the concern with Chinese slate. I do find it a little odd that this dealer uses their own supply of slate instead of getting it from the manufacturer directly. Most of the time, the table you buy includes slate that Kasson, American Heritage, Brunswick, etc. sends with the table.
I did notice your other post to go with the Kasson table. I do think you will be happy. Had I not been on such a tight budget when I bought my Golden West, I would have bought the Kasson myself. And when the time comes to upgrade, I will probably buy a Kasson, unless I get rich and can afford a $4k Gold Crown table!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
01-21-2004, 10:33 AM
Looks like a really nice piece of furniture, but how does it play? Not familiar with the brand, how long have they actually been making pool tables? How does it feel, side-by-side with a good Brunswick or Gandy commercial?
Years ago I bought a beautiful table by a custom maker. It was oak frame, Honduras mahogany everywhere it showed, leather drop pockets, vermillion inlays in the rails, etc. Everyone who saw it commented on it, and it was signed by the maker, who later became an editor at "Fine Woodworking" magazine.
Unfortunately, as my playing improved, I realized that this striking piece of furniture did not begin to approximate the playability and feel of the tables I used in the poolrooms. John Lively was a fine woodworker, but not a pool player. I sold the table at a loss, put in some living-room furniture, and started playing "out" more.
Bottom line is, make sure you are getting something that is closest to what you want and need for you hard-earned money. Recently one of my friends found a used high-end Gandy Sportsman for $600, and it looked brand new. Gandy had the table listed at over $5000 MSRP. It plays 100 times better than the fancy-looking table I used to own.
01-21-2004, 04:15 PM
I understand your point of view and if I played much, I might be able to dissern one table from the next. But as long as the balls roll straight I won't know any difference (ignorance is bliss). So pick the prettiest table with the best reputation.
I bought a used rifle once and the saftey was broken; ended up spending enough money could have bought a new one. I bought a used car even spoke to the owner but somewhere between the old owner and the dealer the car was in a horrible accident. I got a used dog and it jumped the fence every day and had all kinds of bad habits. No sir used is not for me.
Everyone has said low end Brunswick is not worth getting, and no one really knows anything about American Heritage, I didn't like anything steepleton had, sooooo it seems that leaves Kasson.
I could go to my local dealer who is at best misinforming or at worst snake bellied toad scum.
Or I could spend a day driving to another dealer to get a brand new Kasson Deville for $1300
01-21-2004, 04:22 PM
You have a very, ummmm, interesting view on life /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif LOL J/K
From some of the things I have read, I think you are making a good choice.
01-21-2004, 10:00 PM
Hehe, man I do see why you don't buy used. But I got to say, I think $1300 for The Deville (http://www.kassonpooltables.com/tablesh/deville.html) is a fantastic price. Does that include the delivery & setup, along with the beginner cue/ball set? I really think that is a great price. Where about are you located, or what dealer are you using? I might need to buy my next table there!
01-22-2004, 10:51 PM
No delivery and setup (I'm driving a good ways to get it)but it does include the starter balls and accessories.
Contacted the local dealer and said hey this other dealer will sell me this table for $1300 what will you do they said $1900 plus 200 for setup. They said they be there if the table breaks. It will be a good drive to pick it up but so be it. If this dealer can sell it for 1300 then my local place should be able to sell it for $1500 (plus setup). Bunch of lying toad scum.
01-23-2004, 08:26 PM
For that much of a difference I would go pick it up too. Just make sure ya check around and get a good mechanic to set it up, you will have saved enough to be able to pay him and still be money ahead. Sometimes the best mechanics dont acutally work for retail outlets anyway.
01-24-2004, 03:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr>Sometimes the best mechanics dont acutally work for retail outlets anyway. <hr /></blockquote>
Ain't that the truth!! One of the local dealers here that sells Brunswicks, Olhausens, etc. are some of the biggest bunch of snakes/losers in this area. I got lucky cause I bought used and set the table up myself, but should I ever hire a pro I will consult a table mechanic outside of a dealer location. If you think about it, dealers make their money off tables...not quality repair/setup work. Not to say there aren't table mechs out there to just make a quick buck and go on, but their business truly survives on their ability and reputation of good work.
In regards to the actual price, I agree that $1300 is still a GREAT bargain even w/o the delivery & setup. I am jealous I can't find a BRAND NEW table here for that price. Cash & carry on the Kassons in my area are running about $1600+. The money you are saving by picking up the table yourself, will more than pay for the table mech to come set it up for you, if you choose not to do it yourself. Expect to pay about $200 or so to have the pro's do it. Or buy a Starrett level (aka "machinist level") for $135 new or $50 on eBay and do it yourself.
Again, good choice. Let us know when you get the table picked up & setup. I am sure you will love it!!
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