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View Full Version : Diamond Pro pocket size



ras314
01-18-2004, 07:36 AM
I am in the market for a Diamond table and finding used ones to be scarce. I understand new tables have some choice on pocket size.

Looking for comments on size, facing angle, and will they meet BCA requirements?

JimS
01-18-2004, 10:29 AM
The Diamond Pro has what they call their "pro cut pockets". That's what my table has. The openings are supposed to be 4 9/16" but mine are a tab bit smaller I think...depends on where you measure. The shelf is deep and that's what causes the problems with some shots not dropping when you might think they could/should. It frequently pisses me off royally but then I have to remember..."If I'd shot it in the hole it would be in the hole and not sitting on the shelf". Life is tough and then you die. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

If you want "forgiving" don't get the Pro cut pockets....get something else.

BCA requirements? I don't know...don't think I care /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif .....not meaning to be contrary or a smart-ass, I just don't think it matters to me one way or the other. Bottom line.....I LOVE THE TABLE. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ras314
01-18-2004, 11:07 AM
Jim, do you think running a ball down the rail is more difficult than it should be? Vague question, I know. I'm guessing the shelf depth and the pocket facing angle could make a big difference. Other than that I like the idea of relatively "tight" pockets. At least for a practice table.

Actually I don't care much about the BCA dimensions either except they seem more common. I played a little on an antique table that all you had to do was get a ball somewhere around a pocket and it would drop. Kinda fun but I wouldn't want to own it.

JimS
01-19-2004, 07:05 AM
Running a ball down the rail is no problem. There are no problems of any kind with my Diamond. I'd recommended Diamond to anybody. I think they're great. Get the light to match.

ras314
01-19-2004, 07:47 AM
Jim, you are Diamond's best salesman. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I've been trying to order one but they've been busy with DCC. Didn't help when I gave Chad the wrong number to call me back. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

I've seen some comments here on rail shots being a bit tricky which was why the question. Thanks for your replies.

JimS
01-20-2004, 09:06 AM
"Friendly" pockets may take a rail shot at warp speed but tight pockets with the entry angle set up for precision play just won't. They will take any shots made with reasonable speed but if shot hard they had better be precisely accurate.

Don't worry. They are not unreasonable...imo. I don't konw about being their best salesman but I do know I believe in Diamond products. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Chris Cass
01-20-2004, 09:24 AM
Hi Jim,

Did you know Diamond invented Simonis cloth? I also heard that Diamond were going to change the angle of their pockets. Just rumor of course. I love the way your table is set up. It'll make you a player, no doubt. I've noticed with Diamond tables be it a Diamond Pro or the bar box. They play extremely close to one another. You have to hit the ball straight and Diamonds will help to develope ones pocket speed. (ball speed) IMHO

Regards,

C.C.~~loves Jim' equipment. great pool room.

JimS
01-20-2004, 09:32 AM
Diamond invented Simonis cloth??? Huh???? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Must have missed somethun big here?! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
01-20-2004, 09:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> Diamond invented Simonis cloth???

<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah. In 1582

Fred Agnir
01-20-2004, 11:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> Diamond invented Simonis cloth??? Huh???? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Must have missed somethun big here?! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>Greg Sullivan may have had the initial specifications for what the cloth should be and pitched it to Simonis. The result must be Simonis 760 and 860. Obviously, Iwan Simonis company has been around longer than Greg has.

Fred

bigshooter
01-20-2004, 01:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Jim,

Did you know Diamond invented Simonis cloth? <hr /></blockquote>

I heard Al Gore say that he invented Simonis cloth.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod
01-20-2004, 01:15 PM
Gore should have invented ballot cards that punched clean. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Instead he decided to tell the american people of global warming in NYC when it was less than 0 degrees.

houstondan
01-20-2004, 03:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigshooter:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Jim,

Did you know Diamond invented Simonis cloth? <hr /></blockquote>

I heard Al Gore say that he invented Simonis cloth.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

gore invented "virtual" simonis and he's playin on it right now in his "virtual" white house.

dan

woody_968
01-20-2004, 03:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigshooter:</font><hr>
I heard Al Gore say that he invented Simonis cloth.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Yup, but he wasnt sure if it was spelled with or without an E /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Greg/Diamond
01-21-2004, 02:14 AM
Chris,
I'd like to use another word instead of *invented* you could say developed or participated or caused the development of the 860 cloth and be quite correct. I had nothing to do with the development of the 760 thiugh. This all started in 1987 at the Lexington All Star tournament where I first displayed my then call PBATE pool table. PBATE (Professional Billiards Association Tournament Equipment) was later named Diamond. I had a contrac with the then called men's association called the PBA (Professional Billiards Association) which I had duties of producings products for the PBA in which I was paid a Royalty on these products of 20% of the Income the produced for the assoc. ..... In 1987 I took the then 760 Simonis cloth to the Lex. Tourny and about got my head chewed off....Many players had never played on the 760, being used to the old Mali, Forcemann, Stevens or Charles House cloths that were much slower, the ones that some of the older folks may remember that always had fuzz balls when it was first new. Any way the words slow and fast didn't make much sence to me because whats slow to you may be fast to me depending on what part of the country you were from, humidity etc.. The players on the board asked me to try and come up with something between the two speeds the 760 and the rest. I worked with two companies to try and produce what the players requested. One was the Milliken Company and the other was Simonis thru the American Distributer Hank Hayes. The Milliken Company who was much larger and had a great R&amp;D Department created an aluminum ramp, called a Stimp meater like in golf that would hold the ball with suction at the top of the ramp and when released one could measure the distance the ball rolled on the table not hitting the rail and establish numbers for various cloths. Simonis 760 came in at 40 inches off the ramp and the other clothes previously mentioned came in anywhere form 20 to 25 inches off the ramp. This in other word is quite a difference say a 2 railer verses a 4 railer. Cloths were developed by both companies and the best $ offer to the asso. and best cloth turned out to be the 860. I then had a contrac produced where the assoc. would receive money on each yard of cloth sold and all sanctioned events would use the 860 in their tournaments exclusively. I got my first two checks from the assoc. which had a man called Don Macky in charge then ended up in court for the next several years. Got a judgement but couldn't get blood out of a turnip. nuff said....I still have the aluminum ramp and learned a valuable lesson. I should have had my contrac with Simonis directly not an assoc with a crook in charge! Other products were started including the now called Super Aranith Pro balls. Another story! Tired! Not even going to spell cast this post or proof read. See how it goes......Greg/Diamond

JimS
01-21-2004, 06:16 AM
Interesting story Greg. Thanks for taking the time to post during what must be about the busiest week imaginable for you.

Thanks for the Classic and especially for the internet feed. What a great thing....to be able to be there for at least part of the best tournament on the planet.

And here I thought that CC was just pulling my chain...ya just never know. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chris Cass
01-21-2004, 09:58 AM
Hi Greg,

Thanks for the story. It was extremely interesting. I never known anyone that has changed the face of pool and I know your dedication to the players is genuine. One question. Are you changing your pocket degree? Is this rumor true?

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chris Cass
01-21-2004, 09:59 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHA Wally,

You kill me buddy. hahahaha

Regards,

C.C.

John in NH
01-21-2004, 09:45 PM
Hi Ras,

I've had my diamond pro table since September of last year and got it with pro cut pockets, it's a great table and I have no regrets in ordering the tighter pockets, every shot on the table is makeable if played with the proper speed, if however you are not a serious pool player and you don't plan on spending more that 10 hours a week playing pool, I would recommend that you get the regular size pockets.

In any case diamond is a great table, just ask anyone who owns one.

Regards,

John

John in NH
01-21-2004, 10:07 PM
Hi Greg,

I've had my diamond pro since September, 2003 and the diamond pro is an awesome pool table and I was fortunate to order the simonis 860 cloth which has contributed greatly to the playability of the table. I have found the simonis 760 to be a little too fast and less resistant to spin.

I enjoy all of the diamond products from the light to the various miscellaneous accessories that are offered.

Congratulations on what seems to be a very successful Derby City 2004, continued success in your future endeavors.

Regards,

John /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

ras314
01-21-2004, 10:29 PM
John, another Diamond sales person? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Good to hear from you.

I've only found one pool hall with Diamonds. Not sure what size pockets but they didn't seem too tight. Was real disappointed with the rail speed, really dead. Got nothing out of the manager, dumb butt couldn't even tell me when they had last been recovered, let alone how old the tables are. Been checking some AccuStats DCC tapes, those rails were sure not dead.

Going to go with the regular "Pro Cut" pockets.

Greg/Diamond
01-21-2004, 11:24 PM
John,
Since 1987 I have produced several tables and have made many changes over the years trying to learn and improve as I went. The result is various pocket sizes and angles are on the market as I listened to pros and mechanics alike in my search for the right combination. I learned that the angle around the tip must change with different pocket openings. Straight in shots are only affected by the size of the gate (opening) and down the rail shots are controlled by the angle around the tip (which is how fast the throat closes). The angle I'm talking about controls how early you can hit the rail and the ball still go. Of course other factors enter in this equation, but this explains another reason why double or triple facings are not necessairly the best solution in tightening pockets. And to answer another overlooked post (sorry too tired) I have no intensions of changing the angle at this time on the Diamond Pro!...... . I've always been and always will be at the mercy of rail rubber manufactures till I get enough money to try and bring back the old rubber used on earlier Brunswick tables. I feel the Artemis is my best choice at this time. I agree that some of the old tables have slowed down much more than I had anticipated, but that can now be remedied with the Intercontinal Artemis not the K-66 Artemis. Sorry, but as I find something better I'll continue to change!.......Greg/Diamond

Greg/Diamond
01-21-2004, 11:31 PM
Chris,
I goofed and and answered your post earlier in another post to John,,,,, need sleep please check it out no disrespect intended.....Greg/Diamond I

Tom_In_Cincy
01-22-2004, 12:52 AM
Greg,

I was at the Lexington All Stars event in 88 thru the early 90s (sometimes it was held twice a year) and was very impressed with the new PRO Player Designed table that was eventually called DIAMOND. I had been told that the table was for the PRO players only and was not for Pool Halls.

The Lexington KY All Star Events were promoted by Joe Kerr (MHRIP)and had all the very best players of the time. Hall, Rempe, Howard, Hopkins, Earl, Mike Sigel, Miz, Kieth, Kim Davenport, Gary Speath, Donnie Anderson, Nick Varner, Howard Vickory, a very YOUNG Shannon Daulton (16 or 17)and just a few years older Johnny Archer (just 20 or so) and so on. And those tables.... So green, and rolled so straight.. the pros either loved them or hated them.

It was a few years later that the Diamond tables showed up in Cincinnati at Michaels Pool hall in a separate area of the room, called the "Diamond Mine" What a treat it has been playing on these tables for the last 10 or so years. I would rather play one pocket on a Diamond with 860 than any other table made today.

I am now living in Sacarmento and playing on GCIIIs with very tight pockets (Ernesto does them) triple shimmed and TIGHT.

I still miss this Diamonds at Michaels.

Thanks Greg for all you've done for this great game.. You deserve the very best for all your efforts.. All I can offer you now is Thanks.. seems so little from what I have gained from playing on your tables and in your SPECIAL events in Louisville, the Derby City Classic.

Chris Cass
01-22-2004, 10:15 AM
Hi Greg,

I know your busy and it was a rumor I wanted to put to rest. As a player I just want the industry to get more consistancy in the equipment we use. Heck, the games hard enough. LOL You know I'm a Diamond fan all the way. I appreciate what you've done and where your going. Most of all the attitude you have there at Diamond. Rock on my friend.

Regards,

C.C.

John in NH
01-22-2004, 02:14 PM
Hi Ras,

Great choice, good luck with your new table.

Regards,

John /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

ras314
01-22-2004, 03:12 PM
Greg,
I appreicate your reply. Your responses to questions on this site has had a large influence on my decision to get a Diamond table.

Chris Cass
01-22-2004, 04:04 PM
Hi ras,

You have to get a t shirt too. I have one K-Mom bought me for my b-day although I waited quite a while it's one of my favorite shirts. I hope things get really good for the Diamond people and one day they might take a small sponsorship role to a deserving player. Fingers crossed.

Regards,

C.C.

ras314
01-22-2004, 04:52 PM
I don't wear t-shirts anyway. Scaley stuff on the elbows, plum ugly. So naturally I win a lot of them.

Gave an xxl size from a rifle shoot to the local beertender just to see her in it. Too small, the gal is, uh... well built. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I get the impression the Diamond crew is a small hard working bunch and care about customer satisfaction.

kyhogan
01-26-2004, 05:03 PM
Being from Louisville Im rather proud now that I know we have a hard working guy like Greg here producing great tables. And I believe my next table will be a new Diamond (not the first one because I just built a new house and can't afford it yet).

Greg keep up the good work and I'll be calling you in few years!