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srvrules
01-19-2004, 11:27 AM
I was just wondering why you should keep your eye fixed on the object ball after you've made sure of your stroke. It just seems to me that if you keep your eye on the cue ball you will make sure you're hitting it right on and I can't really find any reasons to keep your eye on the object ball besides maybe you'll think about the angle more or something like that.

Thanks

bigshooter
01-19-2004, 11:39 AM
When I first started playing in pool tournaments I once asked a veteran player a similar question right before our match started and he said he had never really thought about it or analyzed it before and when we started the match the poor guy couldn't hardly make a shot and about halfway through the match he told me I got him to thinking about which ball to look at (object or CB) and it completely threw his game off, We we're good friends and he wasn't mad or anything, We both thought it was pretty funny and he finally got his game back and beat me easily.

Iowashark
01-19-2004, 11:39 AM
I feel this is all a matter of preference. What you prefer to look at before you stroke is up to you. If your head is low enough to the table then both the cue ball and the object ball should be in your line of sight, it just depends on which one should be in focus.

I used to play golf for my University, and I used to have to play against this kid that was the best putter I'd ever seen. You know the saying keep your eye on the ball? He would look down at the ball once, but during his stroke he'd be looking at the hole. I tried it a few times, never worked for me.

Some people feel more comfortable looking at the object ball when they stroke, some feel more comfortable looking at the contact point on the cue ball. All preference.

Tom_In_Cincy
01-19-2004, 11:41 AM
srvrules

IMO it's important to keep your eye either on the OB or the CB, but even more important to switch back and forth between the two before "locking in" on one of the two before the final pause of your pre-stroke.

When I have observed the PROs at tournaments, the one consistant eye positioning is when they look at the OB then the CB and then back to the OB. This can happen many times before they lock into the OB or the CB. BTW, most locked into the OB on long shots (4+ feet). But, IMO, it looked like a 50-50 split.. OB last, CB last.

Popcorn
01-19-2004, 11:51 AM
Some look at the cueball so there is not really a hard fast right or wrong. The thing is though, the object ball is the target. When you throw a baseball it seems to go where you look. it is a natural self correcting thing the body does. With pool I would say most people will naturally look at the object ball. That is probably why most do it that way. I sometimes look at the cue ball if I am jacked up over a ball or frozen to the rail and can only hit a small piece of the cueball.(it is hard to make myself do it). I don't think it should be a matter for debate. Try both ways if you like and decide what is best for you. But don't get nuts about it. You can make an argument for both ways.

Nightstalker
01-19-2004, 12:02 PM
The last thing I look at is the OB before I start the stroke. It helps me make more balls so it works for me! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bluewolf
01-19-2004, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Some look at the cueball so there is not really a hard fast right or wrong. The thing is though, the object ball is the target. When you throw a baseball it seems to go where you look. it is a natural self correcting thing the body does. With pool I would say most people will naturally look at the object ball. That is probably why most do it that way. <hr /></blockquote>

I like the baseball analagy and it seems to be how it works in most sports.

While most do look at the object ball last, and move the eyes back and forthe between the ob and cb during the prestroke, I also think that there are some really good players who look at the cb last. It works for them, their stroke is good, maybe this is a little unorthodox but not wrong either.

OTOH,I think it is important to determine if looking at the cb last is right for that person or if it is a crutch for a faulty stroke.

JMO.

Laura

woody_968
01-19-2004, 03:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr>
OTOH,I think it is important to determine if looking at the cb last is right for that person or if it is a crutch for a faulty stroke.

JMO.

Laura <hr /></blockquote>

While I advocate looking at the OB last, I do agree that some will play as well if not better looking at the CB. I also agree that looking at the OB last allows for more compensation during the stroke. Its like putting in golf, on a put that has say 12 inches in break. Many people will read 4 inches of break, without realising it aim for 8 inches of break, and then actually push the ball out with their stroke to 12 inches. Dave Pelz did a study on this that was quite astounding.

Sid_Vicious
01-19-2004, 04:26 PM
Someone's pointed out already that if you are low enough on the CB that you'll be seeing both balls, and that is my last view, at both balls. I also look using both eyes instead of making the dominant eye the primary eye. If you aren't low enough to see both the CB and the OB, then it's my contention that you can't really see what's going to happen on the table as well. Jm2c...sid

Qtec
01-19-2004, 05:01 PM
There is not one single snooker player that looks at the cue ball when striking to my knowledge. If thats any help to you.

Q

Pelican
01-19-2004, 05:24 PM
Just before I shoot I like to turn my head and look at the girl with the well shaped sweater that is sitting on the barstool near the end of the bar. I rarely win a game. Must be someting in my mechanics /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cueboy
01-19-2004, 05:48 PM
Gulp! cannot believe some of the replies.

One should line up the shot while standing, then step into the correct position, any doubt get up and start again.

Feather while looking at the cue ball so that you are happy about the point you are going to hit, before the final stroke pause on the back swing, this will allow your eyes to adjust to the point on the OBJECT BALL and strike with a smooth follow through ( no Jabbing) therefore the last thing you should be looking at is the object ball!

Popcorn
01-19-2004, 06:01 PM
Quote
"Gulp! cannot believe some of the replies.

One should line up the shot while standing, then step into the correct position, any doubt get up and start again.

Feather while looking at the cue ball so that you are happy about the point you are going to hit, before the final stroke pause on the back swing, this will allow your eyes to adjust to the point on the OBJECT BALL and strike with a smooth follow through ( no Jabbing) therefore the last thing you should be looking at is the object ball!"


Unless you are someone who likes to look at the cueball last.

griffith_d
01-19-2004, 06:48 PM
On a long distance shot especially I find the spot on the CB to hit and then do not take my eye off of it until I get down into position and look back and forth until I shoot, looking at the OB. On a short shot I can really see both at the same time I look at the contact points of the CB and OB, but most of the time I will look at the OB when shooting, unless the strike point of the CB is on the edge.

Griff

Ralph S.
01-19-2004, 10:46 PM
It is all preference, and mine is ob last.

Scott Lee
01-20-2004, 05:20 AM
The most important thing is HOW you swing the cuestick through the CB. If you have a smooth, accurate swing, and you can strike the CB EXACTLY where you think you are (I find many students that CANNOT do this consistently), it doesn't really matter which you look at last. I agree with Tom's post about looking back and forth between the CB and OB, before you lock in on one or the other. I look at the CB on many shots, but after studying some with RandyG recently, I have begun to look at the OB on some shots too!
Definitely no fixed 'right' or 'wrong' here, imo. For many players, it depends on the shot.

Scott Lee

Koenig
01-20-2004, 05:40 AM
Qtec, Actually Ive seen that Hendrys eyes last stop is at the cueball. Personally I allways look at the objectball last. And if Im playing darts I look at the bullseye, not the dart /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

houstondan
01-20-2004, 08:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> The most important thing is HOW you swing the cuestick through the CB. If you have a smooth, accurate swing, and you can strike the CB EXACTLY where you think you are (I find many students that CANNOT do this consistently), it doesn't really matter which you look at last. I agree with Tom's post about looking back and forth between the CB and OB, before you lock in on one or the other. I look at the CB on many shots, but after studying some with RandyG recently, I have begun to look at the OB on some shots too!
Definitely no fixed 'right' or 'wrong' here, imo. For many players, it depends on the shot.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

agree, scott, and just to expand on that a bit, i find that i benefit by looking at the c.b. last on non-normal shots. what i mean by that is shots where i'm way out on the edge of the c.b., jumps, masse shots, shooting with the c.b. frozen to the rail and stuff like that. i have found that on some extreme shots, i have a tendency to bring the tip back toward the center of the c.b. on the executition stroke. it can help on real high power shots too.


dan

JimS
01-20-2004, 08:56 AM
WOW!!


Which shots?

Chris Cass
01-20-2004, 09:08 AM
Hi srvrules,

If you don't use both, you don't know what your missing.

Regards,

C.C.~~depending on the shot. works great for jump shots.

stickman
01-20-2004, 09:43 AM
I think Scott could look at the barmaid and make his shots. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif He may have given that up, after he got engaged though. J/K Honestly, I think he could shoot with his eyes closed after he lines up his shot, and still shoot better than most. That's why I think it's more a matter of personal preference. I do both.

Jim

stick8
01-20-2004, 11:51 AM
well I help a few beginers, and my advice to them, first is stance and good stroke or comford with stroke.then I want them to look at ob when they are ready to shoot. You dont look at the stering wheel when driving a car` you look where you aRE GOING. stick

Rod
01-20-2004, 01:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
if you keep your eye on the cue ball you will make sure you're hitting it right on <hr /></blockquote>

There is no guarantee that you will hit it correct. You can't even tell if you hit it exactly where your aiming during the stroke. Yes you might hit it close but your stroke mechanics determine how perfect you hit the c/b whether you look at it last or at the object ball.

Having said that I look at the o/b last about 98% of the time as a guess. I look at it last because It just come natural to focus on what I'm shooting at, not what i'm shooting with. Its easier for me to notice any small body or eye movements that effects my aim than can effect my stroke. I need to be rock solid before that stroke starts back as you would with any stroke. In your case it seems natural to look at the c/b last. I often wonder if these little errors are as easily detected though, by looking at the c/b last. Scott Lee, that posts here, is a very good player and instructor looks at the c/b last. More than one way to skin a cat as they say.

If you want to test this a little set up some shots with half of a pocket. That is a great way to test your aim and stroke mechanics. Copy and paste the code on to a wei table.

wei table (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/%7Ewei/pool/pooltable2.html)

START(
%AR9F5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%E^6J4%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pg6L4%UD5D4%Vm5L7
)END

Here is another,

START(
%AC5D7%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EZ0H5%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Ph0K6%UD7C9%Vm5L7
)END

Another,

START(
%AZ5C8%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%Ea2I7%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Ph2R1%U\1C4%Vn4Y4
)END

Don't touch the one ball of course. Just a couple of ideas for you.

Rod

Anonamus
01-20-2004, 02:44 PM
Why do you look at the object ball last?

So you don't pick your head up.

People tend to want to see where the ball is going and they want to see the OB fall into the pocket. So, if you are looking at the CB last your eyes are going to follow the CB to the OB, especially if the OB is way down the table. When your eyes follow the ball your head will lift up too. When you lift your head up you drop your shoulder and that is bad.

There are times when you look at the CB last. Usually, when you are jacked up on the ball and the CB hit is the most important part of the shot. Like if you were shooting a long shot when shooting over a ball. You are shooting at the edge of the CB so it is more critical to get a good hit on the CB.

01-20-2004, 03:19 PM

Iowashark
01-20-2004, 03:28 PM
I just want to clarify something that's been bothering me about 70% of these posts. I read a lot of "would you look at the dart while you throw at the target" or, "would you look at the steering wheel while you drive", or "would you look at the baseball when you throw it" all of these imply you should look at the target not the object intended for the target.

Technically you are aiming your cue at the cue ball which in turn should be aimed at the object ball. There are 2 targets. There's no right or wrong answer here.

woody_968
01-20-2004, 03:45 PM
I have thought about posting along these same lines, so after reading your post thought I would throw in my 2c.

To make looking at the object ball really work well I think has more to do with the mindset. This may be tough to get my point across but Ill try.

If we use throwing the dart as the example, when we look at the dart board our thought isnt on where the dart board will go when we hit the bullseye. We just instintivly try to get the dart from our hand to that spot on the board. This is the way it should be with pool, we should look at the object ball (if that is what works for you) but your mind, if on anything, is more on the cueball and just letting yourself send it to your target - the correct point on the object ball.

So for people that look at the object ball and anticipate where it is going to go they may be better off looking at the cueball last, otherwise you may make movements in your stroke to try to cut the ball in one direction or another.

A good drill to give an example of this is the stop shot drill we are talking about in the other thread. I normally do it lining up balls as described in that thread. But after you shoot this shot several times concentrating on stoping the cueball, and not making the ball, you will get the feeling of what I mean. You still have to get your contact point, but after that you just get out of your way and let your own ability get the cueball where it needs to go.

Just my 2c, could be wrong as usuall.

Iowashark
01-20-2004, 04:12 PM
Maybe it also depends how trained your stroke is. What do you think would happen if a beginner tried putting half table draw on a long shot while looking at the object ball during his/her stroke? Probably a huge miscue. If your stroke is trained for certain shot than you don't need to be looking at the cue ball when you shoot these shots.

I can't remember right now who brought up my first post about seeing both balls, but I didn't mean to be looking at both balls at the same time with focus on both balls. But when I'm looking at the object ball and focusing on the object ball, my peripheral vision catches that cue ball so I know I'm still going to contact the cue ball where I had originally lined up to do so. You hit it right on with the ghost ball. I don't think it's possible to be looking at both balls and have them both be in focus, unless the object ball and cue ball are frozen.

I guess my point is that for beginners that are trying to manipulate the cue ball a little bit, might be better for them to look at the cue ball last until their stroke is trained for that kind of shot.

Cueboy
01-20-2004, 04:32 PM
If the object of your game is to pot the object ball then
OB is the last thing you should be looking at.

I am only trying to help,when I see someone about to step infront of a moving car I will try and warn them.

Why should you believe me, go to the link below, Frank Callan is a famous English Snooker coach and has coached
players like seven times world snooker champion Stephen Hendry.

In response to one of the previous posters on Hendry's sighting, in his book Snooker Masterclass page 22 I quote "When you are actually playing the shot you must switch your eyes from the cue-ball to the object-ball and back again. Always remember that only your eyes and not your head should move. I believe that at the last instant you should be looking at the spot on the object-ball where contact with the cue-ball needs to be made in order for the pot to be successful." unquote




http://www.fcsnooker.co.uk/basics/sighting/sighting.htm

Qtec
01-20-2004, 05:48 PM
Yes, but when striking the Qb he is always looking at the Oball. The target.

Q

Popcorn
01-20-2004, 06:03 PM
I believe you are sincere, but I think you "Are" looking at one or the other even if you don't really realize it.

Qtec
01-20-2004, 06:16 PM
I totally agree with you cueboy, but you will have a hard time convincing some of the diehards on here. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

If you look at the Qb when trying to pocket a long straight ball on a snooker table, you might as well close your eyes. You could only pocket the ball consistently if you had a perfect stroke and I dont know anybody who has one.

I will go even one step further.

On a long straight pot on a snooker table, when you are getting down on the shot , look at the Ob. You will find that your cue is more consistently on the right line.

but of course, thats JMO.


Q

nhp
01-20-2004, 08:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> but after studying some with RandyG recently, I have begun to look at the OB on some shots too!

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Oh my goodness. Keep up the progress Scott and get back on the tour, seriously.

I was running rack after rack (slight exaggeration here LOL) of 9 ball with my eyes closed Scott last night.

Scott, the best advice you gave me was to pause 1,2,or 3 seconds before shooting that final stroke. I don't know what this does, but I sure shoot a whole lot more accurate doing this. I am pausing almost a full 3 seconds now before pulling the trigger. It settles me down, calms me down, steadies me down, and seems to give me the killer instinct. Thus I was shooting so good with my eyes closed and/or opened.

I must recommend you as the only teacher I have add who told me to do this. I believe Laura said Randy G teaches this also. And you won't see this in many books either I don't believe. <hr /></blockquote>

I completely agree, the pause at the CB has been one of the most valuable things I have learned in this past year, I have to thank Scott for that. When I am in a tournament or in some small action, it really helps to sort of "calm" me, and lets me focus, especially when I am shooting at the 9 or the money ball in the case game.

Sid_Vicious
01-20-2004, 08:08 PM
Probably the CB Popcorn. My stroke execution and timing seem to work more exact when I "see and feel" the CB during the hit. It really does give me the sensation that I'm gathering all of the view beyond the cue ball though instead of peering directly at the CB. I dunno, a serious self study may very well support your view. Today it feels secure to me...sid

Cueboy
01-21-2004, 02:31 AM
I agree the pause is very important, as I stated in my first post in this tread it enables you to adjust your eyes from the CB to the OB on your final stroke!

All good players have this pause, at varying lengths of time. With fast players its hard to spot it but its there!

When you see a snooker pro on a big break the rhythm is fantastic, you can count the feathers which are exactly the same for every shot and then the final pause before striking the cue-ball, by this you can also tell when they are off their game because they will have different number of feathers on each shot. This shows that they ae not focused or not confident.

bluewolf
01-21-2004, 10:44 AM
It seems that everyone has two pauses, one at the cueball, one at the end of the backswing. It is just physics. The length of these pauses is what seems to be individual.

I have a defined pause at the cb and a less discernable one at the backswing. WW thinks that pause at the backswing, a longer one, helps him. For me, it does not help to have a long backswing pause, it just allows my brain to interfere with my stroke.

kind of off the topic on the ob.vs cb. I seems that once I have decided where to strike the cb and have looked back and forth between ob and cb on my preshot to insure accuracy, to continue to look at the cb, would take the flow out of my stroke and I would be worrying about whether I was going to hit it accurately, whether I was going to pot the ball etc, instead of just trusting my stroke and relaxing and letting that stroke do the work. I would be mentally sabotaging myself.

Watching new players, they often look at the cb last because they are not sure, they do not trust their stroke. IMO, if I do not trust my stroke enough to lock onto that ob, that is a mental problem which can also mess up a stroke that is otherwize ok. Looking at the cb last seems also to increase the probability of lifting up, as someone also mentioned. Randy g also mentioned to me on the phone when we were discussing a sl2 i was working with on her stroke, that her looking up may be a result of looking at the cb last.

Another thing,If i am missing when I lock onto the ob, I need to be looking at my mechanics, stroke etc rather than coping out and saying I will just look at the cb last.

No reflection on those who look at the cb last as personal style AND are very good players rather than intermediates. There are a few of those for which this works, but i am guessing it is very few.

And It seems to me that the longer the distance between the cb and the ob, the more important it is to look at the ob last.

my .02

Laura

Rod
01-21-2004, 11:13 AM
A very well thought out post and I agree, keep thinking along those lines. You have learned much grasshoper.

Regarding the pause, it's been used for about a hundred years on both ends. LOL Were not reinventing the wheel here. Of the old time players Cicero Murphy comes to mind but there were many others just not as pronounced. I could have a couple bites of my sandwich before he started forward. Most good to pro players including old timers have a pause at the c/b. Many modern players, if you will, are starting to show that pause in the rear a little more distinctive. Its all good if it fits there inner rythm but were teaching something that our ancestors used.

Rod

Cueboy
01-21-2004, 05:52 PM
Pause at both ends?? The feathering is a smooth continuous action, the only pause is just before the final stroke.

The action you describe would make the whole motion so jerky that it would be untrue!

Players that are trying to learn some basics please visit the Frank Callan web site ( p.s. He also coached Allison Fisher to play snooker). I have nothing to gain by giving you bad advice as I live in the UK, unlike some posters here!

I

woody_968
01-21-2004, 05:59 PM
Um, if Im not mistaken doesnt Allison pause at the back of her stroke?

Cueless Joey
01-21-2004, 06:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> Um, if Im not mistaken doesnt Allison pause at the back of her stroke? <hr /></blockquote>
She sure does. At least one second long.
Buddy does too but it's a hesitation more than a pause.

Sid_Vicious
01-21-2004, 07:56 PM
BINGO! Allison and especially Buddy has a definite back pause, and NOBODY(imo) strokes like Buddy Hall...sid

Cueless Joey
01-21-2004, 08:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> BINGO! Allison and especially Buddy has a definite back pause, and NOBODY(imo) strokes like Buddy Hall...sid <hr /></blockquote>
I do. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Saw Buddy in L.A. two weekends ago.
Still smooth as butter.
Buddy, pls go on Atkins diet, you'd be world champ again.
Joey~Wonders how Buddy pulls his tip all the way inside his bridge hand and not have chalk all over his left hand~

phil in sofla
01-23-2004, 05:59 PM
I haven't read this extensive thread as of yet. I imagine that most will support looking at the object ball/contact point last, and some minority will dissent. Anyone who has been on the board here for any time has probably read one of our own members who strongly suggests to his pool students that they look at the cue ball last, and says they typically are a ball better when they learn to do that.

Thought I'd mention that the way I interpret what they are saying, Jimmy Reid, CJ Wiley, the Imsharsha guy (aiming method posts), etc., all advocate looking at something other than the contact point/object ball, per se.

Jimmy says imagine a 'luminous tube' (?!?!) the size of the balls, and stroke down that tube line. CJ's aiming method is to pick one of three possible ball fraction cut lines and shoot down that fractional line from the cue ball, ignoring the object ball once the line is determined. (Jokingly, he says he doesn't want to get too attached to the object ball, as it will soon be disappearing). Imsharsha (sp?) has you mentally construct sort of a peaked roof, and shoot at the top of the vertex of the roof (I think, sort of a midpoint line, although I admit I do not completely understand what he's doing there).

Others who generally say you should look at the cue ball last admit of exceptions to that rule, as in looking at the cue ball last when bridging over a ball, on the rail, or whenever the hit placement on the cue ball is tricky, and some say thin cuts are done best with finding a rail target along the line, and ignoring the object ball and/or contact point.

The reason for the latter, it is said, is that there are optical illusions or mental assumptions involved with thin hits that tend to make one hit the ball too thickly, when you are actually looking at the ball. Determining a different target on the rail and aiming for it will eliminate the mind 'correcting' the line incorrectly.

I think the same thing is at work with the other methods I mention above as well. Rather than have you 'aiming' up until and at your final stroke, which would allow last split-second 'corrections' that might be wrong, all those methods have you getting a line by aiming, but then transitioning to concentrating on something else that isn't subject to a last split-second revision (i.e., missing caused by a last second unconscious change of line).

Whether this is of value to a given player probably depends on whether they make such unconscious last second changes of line, or stick to the line they set up on. Evidently, those who say you should use a rail target for thin cuts, appear to be claiming that the optical illusion or whatever it is that causes a tendency to hit too fat, is there for everyone, kind of hard-wired into visual perception.

Popcorn
01-23-2004, 06:17 PM
It sounds like you have gotten a hold of that guy (Imsharsha.) I have e-mailed him and never got a replly. What is the low-down on what he has to say?

socrates
01-24-2004, 09:22 AM
At the risk of being redundant:

Before enlightenment trees are trees and mountains are mountatins. After enlightenment trees are trees and mountains are mountains. It's that time in the middle where we struggle.

I honestly believe that each player develops an instinct for aiming after seeing thousands of balls disappear in the pocket. While we may intitially use a shooting system (ghost ball, CJ Wiley slices of the ball, Jimmy Reid tubes, myself I see lines)to speed the learning process eventually the system is no longer a system and is part of us.

While I will introduce students to several shooting system concepts I can no longer tell them how I aim. When I am playing well there is just no doubt the ball is going in the hole. If it does not go in the hole more likely than not there was a flaw in that particular stroke vs. flawed aiming.

In any event - Don't shoot until you see it.

When I am faced with a low percentage shot but feel it is still the correct option I tell myself I may only make this shot two out of ten times but this is one of the two!!!!!

Confidence - There is no substitute.
Cheers

Cueboy
01-25-2004, 03:13 PM
Yes, But players need to have the basics right to realise thier full potential.

On reaching enlightenment do you stop trying to improve? Steve Davis is currently 7-5 up against Ronnie O'sullivan
in the Welsh open final (which I am watching live as I type this) At the grand old age of 46, 28 years a pro Steve still changes his technique, at the moment he seems to be trying breathing methods to help his pots!

phil in sofla
01-26-2004, 07:29 PM
He has you mentally imagine a kind of rudimentary 'house', stick fashion, two lines (that he doesn't exactly say where to put) that are the base, kind of 'risers,' imaginary sides to the sidewall lines you've imagined, and then a little peaked roof of angled lines off the 'tops' of the 'risers.' (He doesn't use any of those terms, those are mine, to try to explain it).

The peak of the 'roof' will be the half-way point between the lines, and you'll shoot down that line once its been 'constructed' in the minds eye. He says you can get your line however you normally aim, but to be sure to not shoot until you've done this little complicated instruction and have well imaged that final 'roofpeak' line.

Guessing (again, as he's fairly vague on all of this, although he provides a rough diagram), I THINK he's developing a parallel or parallelogram line of aim method, with a mental trick to get you the mid-point line of aim, AND to prevent last second changes of aim based on second guessing your intuitive or system line of aim.

Without the theory behind WHERE those lines go, and why this would work (i.e., some explanation of why the peak of the roof would be the aim line), I gave it a totally inadequate trial period and decided I couldn't trust it, especially as we were entering playoffs from the last league session.

woody_968
01-26-2004, 07:57 PM
If I were to guess after reading this, as obviously I am lol, I would say the two lines would both start on the edges of the cueball. Thats like Raymond Floyd (I believe) used to imagine railroad tracks from his ball to the hole before he would hit a putt.

I could also see that they may move in a bit on lesser angle cuts, if he was trying to get one of the lines, the one on the side the object ball would be on, to go from contact point to contact point.

DoomCue
01-27-2004, 11:51 AM
When I was learning to play, I used the railroad track method for pool. I would imagine railroad tracks the width of the ball traveling down the table going through the ghost ball, and then aim for the middle of the tracks. Now, though, as others have stated, I don't think about aiming at all, I just get down and do it.

I've used this analogy before, but here it goes again. Baseball players and basketball players don't consciously think about grip, foot placement, elbows, speed, or any of those things. They've thrown or shot the ball so many times they just allow their bodies to do what they've been trained to do.

We use all kinds of techniques to get to the point where aiming becomes unconscious, but I think that in the end, the better players do get to that point. The hard part is getting to the point where it becomes unconscious, and I truly believe the only way to achieve that goal is through repetition. It's like typing a series of numbers over and over. For instance, type the numbers 172639 over and over. For the first couple of minutes, you'll have to think about getting your fingers in the right place. After a while, you don't have to think about it, and your mind can exert its energy elsewhere. I think the same thing can be applied to aiming. Shoot the shots over and over, they become second nature, and no conscious thought comes into play. Conscious thought leads to purpose tremor (read about it at AZBilliards by Mad Max), which can cause errors.

For those people looking for shortcuts to aiming, look no more. THERE ISN'T ONE.

-djb

Popcorn
01-27-2004, 12:29 PM
I think everybody does something like that in their own way. I sort of imagine a runway right to where I want the cue ball to go. I see a line on the table in my mind. It sounds like he is just describing a common aiming method with a little twist of his own. I use a method for aiming jump shots where I pick a place between the cue ball and the object ball on the table to aim for. It is easier then trying look back and forth to the object ball when I am all jacked up. I make a lot of my jump shots, not just hit the ball so I think it works for me. People have all kinds of methods and I bet if they compared notes, they would find they do a lot of the same things. Given a problem, people tend to come to many of the same conclusions. They have not really discovered something new, as much as just discovered common knowledge new to them.

eg8r
01-27-2004, 12:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Qtec, Actually Ive seen that Hendrys eyes last stop is at the cueball. Personally I allways look at the objectball last. And if Im playing darts I look at the bullseye, not the dart <hr /></blockquote> I don't know about Hendry, but the dart analogy does not work. You are not using your fingers to hit the dart and make the dart head in the direction of the bullseye. I think this is a similar mistake when people try the analogy of shooting a gun.

Pool/billiards has more than just one contact point as you have in darts. In darts your only contact point is at the dart tip/dart board. In pool, you have a contact point at the cue ball/cue tip, and a contact point at the cue ball/object ball. No matter what, you need to pay attention sooner or later at where you are aiming your cue tip at the cue ball.

Personally, I look at the shot to see what needs to be done with the cue ball (draw, follow, etc). I then look at the object ball to see where I need to hit that ball. Then I look at the cue ball to see where I need to hit it in order to send the cue ball towards the object ball. Lastly I look at the point on the cb where I want my cue tip to hit. I find that after I am aimed up on the object ball, I play better when I concentrate on hitting the cue ball where I intend to hit it. The only way to do this is to look at the cue ball when it is hit.

eg8r

woody_968
01-27-2004, 12:52 PM
Doom, I fully agree with your post. I do think one must get to a point where they dont think, they react. Thats the difference between tennis or basketball and pool or golf. Basketball you just react to what is going on, in pool or golf the ball is just sitting there and gives you all kinds of time to fill your mind with *^&amp;% you dont need. This to me is one thing that makes preshot routines so important. You must look at the target and then react, without thinking how.

Eric.
01-27-2004, 12:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I think everybody does something like that in their own way. I sort of imagine a runway right to where I want the cue ball to go. I see a line on the table in my mind. It sounds like he is just describing a common aiming method with a little twist of his own. I use a method for aiming jump shots where I pick a place between the cue ball and the object ball on the table to aim for. It is easier then trying look back and forth to the object ball when I am all jacked up. I make a lot of my jump shots, not just hit the ball so I think it works for me. People have all kinds of methods and I bet if they compared notes, they would find they do a lot of the same things. Given a problem, people tend to come to many of the same conclusions. They have not really discovered something new, as much as just discovered common knowledge new to them. <hr /></blockquote>

woody_968
01-27-2004, 01:06 PM
eg8r, I dont know about Hendry either, but I do think the dart comparison works if you are thinking about it in the right way. When you play darts you look at the bullseye (where you want the dart to go) and you throw it there, or at least try. For pool I think to play well you must learn to look at where you want the cueball to contact the object ball, and just send it there. I agree that before the shot you have to look at the cueball and make sure you are striking it in the right place. But I dont think you have to be looking at it to hit it in the right place given a proficient level of consistancy with stroke.

eg8r
01-27-2004, 01:30 PM
While throwing a dart or baseball might be similar, I still do not agree they are the same. These would be the same with pool, if the cue tip was already touching the cue ball, and your only movement was forward (this would be considered pushing the cue ball and that is a foul). If I had to throw my had at the dart, hit the dart, and then the dart hit the bullseye, then the analogy would be the same.

Sure a consistent stroke will help you hit a certain spot consistently, you must still make sure you are hitting the correct spot. Only way to do that is to look at it.

eg8r

cheesemouse
01-27-2004, 01:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DoomCue:</font><hr> When I was learning to play, I used the railroad track method for pool. I would imagine railroad tracks the width of the ball traveling down the table going through the ghost ball, and then aim for the middle of the tracks. Now, though, as others have stated, I don't think about aiming at all, I just get down and do it.

I've used this analogy before, but here it goes again. Baseball players and basketball players don't consciously think about grip, foot placement, elbows, speed, or any of those things. They've thrown or shot the ball so many times they just allow their bodies to do what they've been trained to do.

We use all kinds of techniques to get to the point where aiming becomes unconscious, but I think that in the end, the better players do get to that point. The hard part is getting to the point where it becomes unconscious, and I truly believe the only way to achieve that goal is through repetition. It's like typing a series of numbers over and over. For instance, type the numbers 172639 over and over. For the first couple of minutes, you'll have to think about getting your fingers in the right place. After a while, you don't have to think about it, and your mind can exert its energy elsewhere. I think the same thing can be applied to aiming. Shoot the shots over and over, they become second nature, and no conscious thought comes into play. Conscious thought leads to purpose tremor (read about it at AZBilliards by Mad Max), which can cause errors.

For those people looking for shortcuts to aiming, look no more. THERE ISN'T ONE.

-djb <hr /></blockquote>

Doom,

I totally agree with you. Getting to the point where your focus is cb only is something done thru hitting many thousands of balls. You may have to go thru some process of consciously lining up on a contact point on the objectball with a point on the cb in the beginning of your pool career but in the final thing-a-ma-jig it's all about spinning, fading, dragging, drawing, following, stunning, and speeding the white ball to where it has to go that makes all the difference. I think the only information the really good players need about the object ball is: does it go. After that it is all about feeling the whiteball around the table and the contact on the object ball is something that just happens as a by product of this 'feel thing'.

I mean, after all what good does it do to be a great ball pocketer if you can't maneuver and manipulate the white ball to position "A". These aiming systems may be useful in the beginning but somewhere along the line you have to leave them in the dust and get on with becoming a player who just feels the shot and hits it.

Qtec
01-27-2004, 08:35 PM
Its not so much about hitting the right spot on the Qb.
Its more about going through the Qb in the right direction.

Take this long 9b.

START(
%AI6F7%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pg7U5%Qk2U6%Rg6S4%S I4D5%]C8C9
%^k1W1
)END

If 'A'is the end of your backswing, the line that you are using to pocket the ball when aiming at the Qb, is from 'to 'B'.

If you are aiming at your target then the line is 'A'to C'.
You cant pocket long balls consistently by looking at the Qb.

Qtec

wei (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

sledhamrbrk
01-28-2004, 05:36 PM
Hot Topic Here. It has already been mentioned here,but I will second the motion. The eye shift pattern from c.b. on forward stroke shifting to o.b. on back stroke is the most common method used by the majority of professional players.

There are also top players who do not make a concious effort to maintain certain eye shift patterns as it interupts thier stroke timing.They just see the whole shot.Most of these players definitely have thier eyes fixed on the object ball on thier forward stroke.(These players also have implicit faith in thier stroke,and it's correctness)

Many top players have shots "burned into thier visual memory" and make adjustments in accordance with varying tip positions.They just know and see the shot.Few of them want to attempt paper thin cut shots with out having thier eye on the O.B. when they are on their forward stroke.

As you are stroking the cue you are grooving the path that the cue will travel down.It would be highly difficult to determine if you tip is going to be delivered to a specific point on the cue ball on the back stroke.Therefore it is checked on the forward stroke.Sighting to the c.b.on the forward stroke helps ensure that your tip is pointed precisely to an already predetermined tip position.

Sighting to the o.b. gives you a specific target or point of aim reference.This process allows for a "check point so to speak as you are stroking the cue.

There are a couple hidden agendas that will occur by using this eye shift pattern. 1-you will slow your stoke down or you will become dizzy ! 2- a pause and a smoother transition from back to forward normally will occur.

There are certain shots it is more beneficial to only look at the c.b. These are jump shots,masse shots(obviously)and certain rail shots.When exercising these shots with this sighting process keep in mind,you are being limited to only be able to part of the shot and not the whole shot.In this event body and cue alignment are much more critical.

B.T.W.Rapid\quick\jerky exchange from back to forward is responsible for many more missed shots than faulty sighting process is.

Many players out there are seeking some secret aming system supposedly used by the pros.Bottom line is precisely what Scott Lee addresses greater care in the your stroke will benefit you much more than trying to figure out some funky aiming system.

"If you swing the cue well enough, in time ,you will see the shot".