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View Full Version : That #%@*&# Zero Tolerance Drill!!!!!!!



woody_968
01-20-2004, 11:14 AM
Hi all, got my Blackbelt Billiards drill book last Friday and wanted to say thanks to everyone that recommended it! The book appears to be well thought out, and the belt system gives goals to each drill that will make them more fun to try to get through.

Whipped through the first few drills, the follow shot into the corner pocket gave me more trouble than I thought it would. This is one that I will be doing more often for sure /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

But now Im on the zero tolerance drill and gots ta tell ya it is driving me INSANE!!! lol I am no pro player, but Im not without atleast a little tallent either. When I quit playing APA several years ago I was rated a 6, and would gamble with any of the 7s in my area. But I cant seem to get that #%@! cueball to freeze for nothing!!!

Just wanted to vent a lil, thanks for listening /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

JimS
01-20-2004, 11:23 AM
Get back to work.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Steve Lipsky
01-20-2004, 11:33 AM
What is the zero tolerance drill?

- Steve

woody_968
01-20-2004, 11:43 AM
Its a simple drill really, with the cueball on the footspot and the object ball 3/4 of the way to the side pocket set up straight in. But when you shoot the shot the cueball must stop DEAD! Absolutely no movement after it hits the object ball. I used to set up all fifteen balls in a row across the table in line with the diamond below the side pocket, take cue ball in hand to be straight in at the diamond above the side pocket and try to do the same thing.

If you never work on this shot you should, as it will tell you tons about where and how you are hitting the cueball. It can just be very frustrating /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SPetty
01-20-2004, 01:56 PM
This one frustrated me so that I actually haven't picked up the book again. It's hard for me to skip something and since I was working through the book and couldn't get this one, I couldn't keep going through the book! But, that's just me.

BTW - socrates sends his regards to the CCB. I "chatted" with him a few nights ago and he's been busy, but asked me to say "hi" to the CCB for him.

woody_968
01-20-2004, 02:57 PM
I thought about going on to some of the other shots, but like you I hate to skip around and want to go through each drill as it comes up. So I may be stuck as a white belt for life LOL.

Aboo
01-20-2004, 02:59 PM
LOL I'm glad I'm not the only one. I stopped going through the book after I couldn't get this shot too. I think my best was 3 out of 10. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

woody_968
01-20-2004, 03:07 PM
Unfortunatly Im way to stubborn to stop going through the book, so Im probably going to wear out the cloth from the foot spot to the side pocket on this shot alone /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Steve Lipsky
01-20-2004, 03:12 PM
Hey Woody. In the WEI diagram:

START(
%I_3G3%J`7Q5%Pg5O4%WD9[0%Xf5O6%Y\6D4%Zf8N8

)END

Would it be the shot on the 9 ball or the 10 ball? I am assuming the 9 ball.

Anyway, I haven't really tried it yet. It seems to me that the shot would be enormously easy to hit almost perfectly, and fairly difficult to hit absolutely perfectly.

According to the author, why is the latter so much more important? I would think that if you can confidently hit the shot so that the cueball has no "real" movement afterwards (less than an eighth of an inch, say) you'll be fine.

But I take it the author disagrees?

- Steve

woody_968
01-20-2004, 03:22 PM
It is the shot on the 9 ball. In order to make it stop dead you must hit exactly the right place on the cue ball, with the right speed, and your stroke MUST be absolutly straight! That is why the drill is so good, the slightest mistake in tip postion or stroke shows up on the cueball at contact. This is important so when you do have longer shots when a small amount of spin on the cueball could be enough to throw the object ball out of the pocket. Have you ever missed a shot you really thought you were lined up on correctly? That could be the reason. Or the pool gods just dont like you /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

dave
01-20-2004, 05:51 PM
I've done a variation of this drill for years.The point of the drill is to get you to hit the cueball exactly where you are aiming.The drill I learned involves the use of a true centerball hit. Shoot the shot each time with centerball. If you miss, you didn't hit centerball. If you make it but the cueball drifts forward, you hit slightly above center. If the CB draws back slightly afterwards, you hit below center. If the CB stuns to the right, you hit the CB slightly to the left of center or you hit the OB to the right of center. If you stun to the left, you hit the CB slightly to the right of center or you hit the OB to the left of center. It's not so much about learning how to hit centerball as much as it is learning how to hit the cueball exactly where you intend consistently and this is the most obvious way to illustrate the error with the minimum of variables. It's frustrating because it clearly illustrates one's weakness and inconsistency in stroke execution. But, it's worth sticking with because the eventual payoff in stroke development, accuracy and consistency is enormous.I can't believe I've been drawn out of lurk mode! Adios.

woody_968
01-20-2004, 08:11 PM
Well glad to see ya come out of lurksville /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I agree with everything you said, but would add that when the cueball drifts forward you could have hit a center ball hit but with not enough speed. I imagine you were assuming that the cue ball had been struck at the proper speed, just wanted to clarify this for those lurking in the thread /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

dave
01-20-2004, 08:22 PM
You're correct.Thanks.

recoveryjones
01-21-2004, 12:38 AM
I like the sounds of this book and I am definitly going to purchase one soon. It sounds like the writer really knows what he is doing in calling for drills that demand a perfect centre ball hit. When one gets their stroke straight it will make the preceding drills in that book so much more valuable.I check my stroke periodically by chalking the cue and aiming for the round part of the numeral nine on the nineball. The fresh chalk (hopefully appearing dead centre on the number nine)shows me if I've made an accurate hit.Shortning the bridge( distance from cue ball) and backswing makes this easier.The further your bridge hand is away from the cue ball the more you will miss center target with a faulty stroke.Also a firm bridge hand is important.The vast majority of amateurs can't hit centre ball when attempting to do so.No doubt if one is persistant at the zero tolerance drill that improvement is sure to come. Hang in there. RJ
ps. A Jim Rempe training ball is excellent for revealing if you are hitting the cue ball where intended.
http://www.gameroomsusa.com/arjrtb.html

Wally_in_Cincy
01-21-2004, 07:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr> I like the sounds of this book and I am definitly going to purchase one soon. ....<hr /></blockquote>

you can buy it at his website.
http://members.aol.com/blkbeltbilliards/

SPetty
01-21-2004, 10:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr>It seems to me that the shot would be enormously easy to hit almost perfectly, and fairly difficult to hit absolutely perfectly.<hr /></blockquote>That is exactly right. If they called it "Close Enough Tolerance Shot" instead of "Zero Tolerance Shot", I'd have breezed through it.

I think there's something about the angle into the pocket that affects how the novice shooter sees it as well. I suspect, although haven't tested the theory, that I'd have better success with this "Zero Tolerance Drill" if I were shooting it straight into the side pocket.

The drill is to hit it 10 times in a row absolutely perfectly. I think it's not possible, but that's just me... /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Rod
01-21-2004, 10:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr>It seems to me that the shot would be enormously easy to hit almost perfectly, and fairly difficult to hit absolutely perfectly.<hr /></blockquote>That is exactly right. If they called it "Close Enough Tolerance Shot" instead of "Zero Tolerance Shot", I'd have breezed through it.

I think there's something about the angle into the pocket that affects how the novice shooter sees it as well. I suspect, although haven't tested the theory, that I'd have better success with this "Zero Tolerance Drill" if I were shooting it straight into the side pocket.

The drill is to hit it 10 times in a row absolutely perfectly. I think it's not possible, but that's just me... /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>


What Steve mentions makes a lot of sense. Rarely a stop shot has to be hit dead solid perfect. Although I don't think it is difficult, I could be wrong. What is the shot were talking about? SPetty, would you put it on the wei?

Rod

woody_968
01-21-2004, 10:58 AM
SPetty, for me its not the angle, because as I have said before a form of this shot has been in my routine for a while. I just never strived sooooo much for zero tolerance. I line the balls up across the table and shoot straight into the corner pockets. Went through it 7 times last night, thats one hundred and five balls, think I might have had two that I was happy with! LOL

Just thought I would mention that I believe the black belt level for the shot in the book is 5 out of 10 but I could be wrong. I will look when I get home. If it is 5 out of 10 for black belt rating that says something about the diffuculty of hitting it perfect.

SPetty
01-21-2004, 11:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> SPetty, would you put it on the wei?<hr /></blockquote>Steve did it already in his post, but here it is again: START(%I^8F9%Pg5O4%Y\6D4%Zf8N8)END

Sorry I don't have a WEI link...

SPetty
01-21-2004, 11:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> Just thought I would mention that I believe the black belt level for the shot in the book is 5 out of 10 but I could be wrong. <hr /></blockquote>That could be. Like I said before, it's been awhile since I looked at it... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Steve Lipsky
01-21-2004, 12:54 PM
I agree with Rod here. My main issue with this shot is that if you gave it to any top player, I don't think his results would be any different than that of the average player. I don't think Efren has any more success making this shot perfectly 10 times in a row than Susan or me. So, if this is the case, what exactly is it measuring? It seems unnecessarily difficult (and with the caveat that you can't skip ahead until you do it, unnecessarily cruel as well).

I think that practice time should be used efficiently, and it might become a real issue if people are getting stuck on this one drill (to the point of not skipping ahead in the book and learning new things).

It gives me pause when I see someone practicing for a long stretch of time a shot like this:

START(
%Ha4Q9%ID2P2%PD3D2

)END

I like to look at practice time in the "Are you allowed to miss from here?" vein. In other words, if the shot above comes up in a match, you're allowed to miss. Earl is allowed to miss. It's not a vital shot. Take your time, line it up, and take a few extra practice strokes. Then pull the trigger and take what you get. If you miss, you can still go back to your chair knowing you gave it a good effort.

But a situation like this:

START(
%Gn8P6%HP5E9%IK6Z6%Pd1V3

)END

Here, you have to get out every time. These are great things to practice, imo. If this position comes up in a game, there are no excuses. You either get out or you dogged it.

I think practice should consist mostly of relatively simple to mediocre positions, with a small portion of it devoted to the toughies. And if you're not doing well with the harder shots, you can't let it bother you. If we can negate our unforced errors, our games take a giant leap forward, even while missing the occasional hard shot.

I think it's more important to get out of position B 10 out of 10, than to slightly increase my make percentage of position A.

- Steve

SPetty
01-21-2004, 02:14 PM
I like how you think, Steve!

Just to be clear, the Black Belt Billiards book does not insist that you complete a drill before continuing on. That's just me. Well, and maybe woody_968...

Steve Lipsky
01-21-2004, 02:18 PM
Oh... hmmm.. well... forget what I said then /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

lol,
Steve

dooziexx
01-21-2004, 02:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> Hi all, got my Blackbelt Billiards drill book last Friday and wanted to say thanks to everyone that recommended it! The book appears to be well thought out, and the belt system gives goals to each drill that will make them more fun to try to get through.

Whipped through the first few drills, the follow shot into the corner pocket gave me more trouble than I thought it would. This is one that I will be doing more often for sure /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

But now Im on the zero tolerance drill and gots ta tell ya it is driving me INSANE!!! lol I am no pro player, but Im not without atleast a little tallent either. When I quit playing APA several years ago I was rated a 6, and would gamble with any of the 7s in my area. But I cant seem to get that #%@! cueball to freeze for nothing!!!

Just wanted to vent a lil, thanks for listening /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

That is a tough drill. I have the same book and on that drill I could only get the cb to stop dead 2-3 times per 10 tries. You have to hit right and with the correct speed. To me its fun doing the drill but how many times in an actual game do you need to stop the cb dead in it tracks. 99% of the time, you have some kind of margin of error that you can work with. Just move on to the next drill... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rod
01-21-2004, 02:44 PM
Well then it's setteled, Steve and I say move on. lol

To add to his good comments I'd say take that same shot and practice positions to various positions using draw or follow, that is if you want another drill. If you need to draw a foot but draw 14" or more your probably still ok.

Something along this line,

START(
%A_6G6%Bm9F4%CJ5O4%Dh3G6%Eb5E5%FL7P7%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pg6O5%Ub6O8%V_5H5
)END

Or follow to different areas,

START(
%A_6G6%BL4N2%CJ5O4%DK7O9%EN0O9%FL7P7%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pg6O5%UX1M6%V^2C5%W O4V2%X^2C7
%YF1V5%Z^2C5
)END

You'll need to shoot forms of these shots 500 or more times before you ever have a need for a perfect stop shot.

I know the book is trying to perfect stroke which is good but as mentioned your time could be better served. If you really have or want to shoot that shot just find a stroke speed that works with say one tip of low. Personally as a close guess, I'd shoot it with about a tip of low and at lag speed. If the c/b just turns over before it gets there, it will stop dead in it's tracks, if you aim well. lol

Rod

woody_968
01-21-2004, 02:52 PM
Steve, great post, I totally agree with everything in your post (exept for Efrin not being able to do it more often than us mere mortals). I spend much of my practice time on 3 and 4 ball outs. I also play the gost alot in a race to 9, starting with one ball on the table and increasing the number of balls by one each time I get out. This often quikckly identifies the number of balls you can regularly run out. I just feel this shot is important because of how much it tells you about stroke or cueball striking position. If the cueball drifts forward a little because of bad speed I dont sweat it much, its just when the cueball moves left or right (due to improper contact with object ball) or the cueball spins because of unwanted english.

woody_968
01-21-2004, 02:56 PM
Doozie, I agree that it is seldom during a game that you would have to stop the cueball so dead. As stated in earlier posts I have chosen to work hard on this one because of the things it tells me about tip position, stroke, and alignment.

I will not make myself reach black belt before I move on, but will feel like I have a better grasp on the shot before I do so.

Thanks for your input.

Eric.
01-22-2004, 09:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr>But a situation like this:

START(
%Gn8P6%HP5E9%IK6Z6%Pd1V3

)END

Here, you have to get out every time. - Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Steve,

While I agree that this is a must get out layout, I think it can be a deceiving shot if you're not careful. Personally, I think I would play it like this:

START(
%Gn8P6%HP5E9%IK6Z6%Pd1V3%WX1K9%XC9P4%]]6O9%^R8D9%_s0R9%`n3R0
%ae2V0%bF0R3%ce0[6%dr6U6
)END

with the key being the speed of the shot off the 7 (hit it hard enough).

Anyone else like to play it differently? Maybe using inside English?


Eric

hhsaloon
01-22-2004, 11:08 AM
I'm with many that have posted in that I was able to black belt until I got to this particular drill. What made me come back to it was reading somewhere (I know this is a no-brainer for many) that the predictable tangent line the cue ball will take is based on no follow or draw at time of impact. For me, I initially looked at this drill as having purely stop shot value only. When I started to increase the distance on the stop shot drill I started to learn (not master) about where I'd need to hit the cue ball for it to have no rotation when it hit the object ball and follow the geometric tangent, thus predicting where it will hit the rail on shots with any type of cut.

Steve Lipsky
01-22-2004, 11:28 AM
Hi Eric. I think it's a bit difficult to do it that way.

START(
%Gn8P6%HP5E9%IK6Z6%Pd1V3%QZ8Z4%Rf8Z7%SB7G3%TI2C2%W X1K9%XC9P4
%[Q5J2%\J5D4%_s0R9%`n3R0%ae2V0%bF0R3%ce0[6%dr6U6
)END

Your angle on the 7 is such that you can't comfortably go 3 rails playing it with just right - the side pocket ("A") becomes big. And the second you hit it like a stop shot (just below center), it's very easy to come short to B (following through to C and D on the last 2 rails - no good). Finally, even if you hit your shot really well, your cueball is on a path to get dead straight with the 8, which would be no good in this layout.

I think I would play it with a touch of left, just to straighten out as I come off the short rail. Remember that you don't want to get anywhere near straight on the 8, so a lot of left is not necessary at all.

(If I thought I could hold it, I'd probably choose to play the 7 with low right and come two rails, but the WEI diagram isn't precise enough for us to see if we can do that here.)

Just my opinion... talk to you soon, Eric.

- Steve

woody_968
01-22-2004, 12:16 PM
I would also play it with a touch of left, going three rails makes you cover alot of "no shape" area, while going one rail the only way to not have a makeable shot is to go too close to the 8. Now if the cut on the 7 is so thin hitting it easy is a problem then I would take the 3 rail shape.

jjinfla
01-22-2004, 06:59 PM
Woody and others,

By stopping until you master that shot, or any other, you are really missing out on a lot of other good drills.

When I first received the book and tried that drill I called Steve and he said he found out that most people were having a lot of trouble with that drill. Stick with it; but don't get stuck on it.

Best I ever did was 5. But it sure is a nice feeling when everything comes together and that little white ball stops dead. All the stars must be in alignment - as well as your stroke and speed. And the funny part is that when a similar shot comes up in a game I usually make it. So why can't I do it when I practice it?

But each of his drills has about 4 levels. I never try and go through all 4 levels in one day. I will just start out with the first level of a drill and mark how many times I completed it and if I was able to accomplish that goal. Then I go to the next drill and do the same thing. Then on future days I come back to various drills that I have started and try to complete the next level. And keep doing this until I reach the 4th level, the black belt level. I feel I get the most out of each drill doing it this way.

So far I have worked on the first 35 drills and only fully completed 19 of them.

The Katas are nice too. As simple as they are they really make you concentrate because if you get out of line, miscue, stumble, it is start all over. It unconsciously ads the pressure you feel in an actual game when you have an easy run-out.

And, more important, working wiht this book has really helped my game, and I feel that I know so much more about the game. Paid off at the tournament last tuesday and got me to the catbird seat and split 1/2 for $70 each.

Jake