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bigalerickson
04-21-2002, 05:09 AM
I have put up a few posts regarding playing for money, and "hustling" and tonight I found my first game. i was playing at a local place, where I know a few of the regulars there, and just put a ten on the table and started shooting 8 ball, with a friend of mine.

After about twenty minutes, I was approached by an unkown sporting a house cue. i offered a race to five racks of 8 ball, at 10 a rack. He agrees stipulating winner brakes, and all shots called with kisses and caroms. I requested to play a free rack first, to which he agreed (is this rude/customary if he is unkown to me?).

I took him 5-3, pocketing my first 20! I also ran my first rack on a 9' table! I was shortly thereafter approached by a regular whom I have played in a tournament, whom I beat once to his twice, but my play had improved. He offers a 20 game, knowing i just acquired a nice crisp one, me winning 4 racks to his six. At 5-3, he follows the cue into pocket with the 8. And then asks me if I want to double it having to win 5 to his 6. I decide its time to call it a night, and head home after only about and hour and a half of pool.

I am interested in any feedback from you, the second guy I played I know is a better player than me, but wouldn't expect him to try and hustle me. THoughts? was i rude to deny him another set?

04-21-2002, 05:31 AM
People will have different views on this,but playing such a short race I always give a guy a chance to break even.If he does and than you want to quit, fine. I probably would not play someone who beat me one set and quit again.

Ken
04-21-2002, 06:21 AM
Did that ten just sit on the table while you played your friend? If so that is a custom that I am not familiar with. Most places prefer that you be more discreet when gambling. Bystanders usually get the picture when they see money pass at the conclusion of a game. Perhaps you are in Arizona where social gambling is perfectly legal.

By the time you finished playing the "regular" who approached you it probably would have been acceptable to quit on him with the understanding that 1. perhaps it was late, 2. You know each other and can easily play again later, 3. You might think that the smaller spot might not be adequate based on who got the rolls in the first set.

If it was early and he offerred the same spot it would be a closer call but you could still offer to play again at a specific time.

The first guy might have more reason to be peeved and you would owe him a chance to get even but I guess he was satisfied with not playing again. I see nothing wrong with asking to play a free rack. Don't expect to accomplish much since I wouldn't think he would try to play that well in that rack. If he intentionally plays bad or shows a few signs of brilliance you might not want to play him or you could lower the bet to a set amount for the whole race.

It is common to just play for an amount per game without any time limit. Then it becomes more awkward to quit. You were playing a race to 6 which implies an end to the play and he has less reason to expect another race especially when he wants to lower the spot.
Ken in CT

Sid_Vicious
04-21-2002, 06:24 AM
This is true, but you don't gave to take the doubled bet. Agree to play for an hour more and keep the bet as it is or flavor it for yourself. After all, he's the one wanting more chances to get into your pocket...sid~~~wouldn't play that call kiss and carom crap, someone wants to play that way laugh at them and point them to a box table in the closest tavern ;-)

PoolFool
04-21-2002, 10:29 AM
Sid, I respect your knowledge and I've gained from your previous posts. But, please don't put down players who rely on accuracy in shot making vs. luck. I don't mind being beat by a better player but I hate to lose to someone who would have not made the shot except he was so far off that hitting another ball by accident was the only way the OB made it to the pocket. Slop is slop on any size table.

PoolFool- doesn't take slop and still wins a few.

cheesemouse
04-21-2002, 11:06 AM
Poolfool,
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>PoolFool- doesn't take slop and still wins a few.<hr></blockquote>
This is carved in stone somewhere in all poolhalls: The longer you play the more slop you will except
Get over it and just consider slop part of the game, your life will be less stressful.

Tom_In_Cincy
04-21-2002, 11:13 AM
PoolFool,
Even the greatest players of all time never had to call kisses, rails, combos and any other detail other than Ball to be pocketed, and the pocket.

Sid's post may not have been worded to your liking, but his point is made. These types of rules are usually used for beginners or novice players that think that pool is suppose to be played that way.. and its not. Slop (as you call it) is not that easily understood. When a good player uses a carom to make a ball, you might call that slop, others that know the game know it took skill.

Slop cannot be counted on to win games.. let alone matches.

PoolFool
04-21-2002, 04:12 PM
You are correct Tom. I shoot a lot of combo's and carom shots. However, I do call them so there is no doubt about my intentions. I play by the rules of the place I'm in at the time. If I'm playing BCA rules I don't expect the other
players to call kisses or carom's. But please give me the
option to do so. I've been playing in pool halls and bars since '57 and don't get stressed by the rules. Just my own mistakes.

PoolFool

04-21-2002, 07:43 PM
What happens when you call unnecessary detail like a carom off a ball sitting next to the pocket and it goes straight in without touching the intended ball instead? According to the rules you didn't have to call the carom and the ball went into the pocket nominated, so its technically your shot, but you called the carom. Then it becomes a matter of honour for you not to take the shot and give it up to your opponent. To further complicate the matter you leave your opponent snookered and yourself a bad shot to. Now you are trying to leave the table to satisfy your honour of not getting the carom but your opponent doesn't like it. Now by calling that detail to prevent a slop shot you have slopped a safe in on your opponent that isn't technically legal. Extreme example no doubt but a senario that could cause problems due to excessively accurate shot calling.

Also, I believe that if you have a long sharp cut down the rail and a ball is sitting in front of the pocket making your target area larger than usual (cause you can hit the pocket directly or carom off the ball in front) then by selecting that shot for its specificly large error margin it provides you should not be punished into choosing the carom or straight in. You are smarter for choosing a shot that can happen two ways and that in my mind is never slop.

Other things I can think of is if the ball touches the rail next to the pocket and goes into the pocket is that considered a rail?

The BCA was right to avoid all the questions by saying only nominate ball and pocket. It avoids a heap of rediculous situations that don't need to be looked at.

PS Sorry for going off like that PoolFan, but our league tried to introduce a rule like that at the start of the year and it really got me worked up.

Tom_In_Cincy
04-21-2002, 08:10 PM
You will always have the option of playing by your rules of calling everything......

Its been my experience that when someone wants to play by these "call everything" rules, I usually am playing with a person that hasn't been playing too long and doesn't know that there were NEVER any rules like that.. and that someone just made them up.

You are probably an exception to this rule.
Either way. I don't know of anyone that I have ever played with that uses those rules today, and I have been playing pool since 1965

cheesemouse
04-21-2002, 08:46 PM
Poolfool,
If I were matching up with someone who insisted on the rules your preaching about in the back of my mind I would be thinking 'where has this person been for the last 20 years?' Sorry man but the pool world has moved on w/o you if you still thinking that the calling of kisses b/s is where pool is at. Just play the way the 'pros' play and relax. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

04-21-2002, 08:47 PM
Hey,
Congrats on your first win, but you are tired of playing after only an hour and a half at the table. Fast Eddie you are not.
Should have kept going, possibly your opponent purposly tailed the 8 with the white to get you to double, beat you the next game, and then be up double the original bet, rather than down.
Play him again, and report on the results so we will know..

I recently moved to a new "pool" playing place, far from my original hall. It is always a fun, and new experience as all the players in town try to find out exactly what your speed is. I digress:

The thing in this new town, is that bastards are always pulling this 20 dollar [censored] with me.. I finally get them to the table for some money, and after one set they quit. If I win, they are bitter, if they win, they take the money and run. Plus nobody here plays for over 10 dollars a set, sometimes big money means 20. It took me 2 months to get over the fact,that playing for 10 was a joke where I used to play, and most "players" would not show you speed for 10 dollars if you had a hungry dog waiting near by, and a T-bone stapled to their gunyons.

Weird stuff, still having trouble with it. You should have kept playing, you were up, he wanted to double the bet, I say go crazy. What did you have to lose, just the original money that you had won, and I guess the table time..

You wanna be a "player" stay around when the playing starts..

cArson

PoolFool
04-21-2002, 09:56 PM
Ozzy8, No problem on the "going off". I can't remember ever seeing the examples you gave. Maybe I've been lucky so far.
I promise that from now on, when I play by BCA rules, I'll keep my mouth shut so no one will know if I planned it clean or kiss, or, one or two rail kick. And, when I play at a place that plays only "house rules" I can still play their game and win a few. I realy don't care what rules I play by as long as they are the same for my opponent. English works the same and the balls still go in the pockets.

PoolFool

PoolFool
04-21-2002, 10:26 PM
I'm not trying to convert anyone. But, there are a lot of bars that play call shot including kisses and number of rails. If you remember, I once posted why I prefer to play in bars. So, if I'm going to play in their house I'm not going to get upset by their rules. I'll just become more accurate in my shooting and my game will improve. As it has.

Pool Fool

bigalerickson
04-22-2002, 01:09 AM
As to the calling kisses and caroms, that is how i was brought up to play, but no longer play that way. Normally I would have negotiated it a bit, but I was honestly a bit nervous about the whole thing.

As to the ten on the table, I picked it up once he came over, I just thought it might be a good way to grab a little attention.

When I departed from "regular" player, it seemed to be on okay terms, with the I'll get you next time overtone. You are all right in saying I should have kept playing, I regret it now, as i would have been a good opportunity to play some more.

Are there any other ways to handicap 8 ball?

Also, when playing for an extended period of time, playing 10 a rack, is it customary to pay every rack lost/won or to just tally it up until the match is over?

thanks for some great reading material to keep me thinking about my game.

Al

04-23-2002, 01:47 AM
Big Al,

My take on gambling is this...

I would not quit on an opponent while I am ahead, unless there is some particular reason (late, bar closes, date,...whatever). In my mind it is reasonable to want to leave when you want, but you should be amenable to a rematch at an agreed time. After all, you are supposedly winning and are ahead in $. It is to your advantage to keep playing, with the hope that you will continue to win. You are not oblidged to "double" the bet or anything of that nature.

I've frustrated a number of players by sticking to the original bet. It is my perogative. The worst thing that you can do is double the bet (unless of course that you really know that you can beat this person).

Negotiating a bet is a big thing in pool. Play within your means. Try this on for size...

Figure out the maximum amount that you can afford to lose (without slitting your wrists if you do)and play an "ahead" set for the whole shabang. In other words...play a set where a person has to win 10 games ahead of the other for say...$100. This amounts to essentially $10 per game and insures that both players will play to the "bitter end". It also insures that there will probably be a fairly long and drawn out match if both players are similar in capabilities. If $100 is nothing to you... play for $200 or $300, or whatever.

Ahead sets are a wonderful way to lock in a certain amount of money. However, my opponent and I will usually agree that if we are playing for over a certain period of time (say 3 hours), then the loser owes the winner the difference. Play can resume another day.

Conduct yourself as a gentleman (win or lose), and you will miles ahead of the egotists that one finds in bars...

Regards,

Doug

bigalerickson
04-23-2002, 02:18 AM
That sounds like a great way to play for money, in as much it allows for some action, as well as a challenging effort by both individuals. I do believe I will try that, sooner than later...
Thanks salamander and everyone else for your helpful thoughts once again.

Sid_Vicious
04-23-2002, 06:55 AM
PoolFool...You said two things here, one I agree with the other I don't. Yes if I am in THEIR house( a bar or tavern, etc.) then I'd respect the rules and not whisper a chuckle, but I doubt that I'd even play. In MY house I would at least smirk and just say "Naaa, dem ain't the rules. We were smart enough to can those when BCA came through."

Second thing which I don't agree with is the theory that your will your game will improve by gleaning your accuracy skills. I personally feel that what actually happens is the opposite, a player will stifle and then lose composure plus the bet. It usually goes down hill from there, and I find it disrespectful leaning on dangerous

Really Man, if I call my ball in a particular pocket and it happens one time in a blue moon to truly slop off of a bunch of balls before finding it's way into THAT pocket, then let it be to the wonderment of the opponent whether I had intended it or not. Players above a certain level deserve the respect that the 99 other clean shots they've made so far meant something, and he DID hit his intended pocket. That last sentence is the key to the whole topic here(IMO.)

One last thing, audibly speaking every intention on your shot is far more distracting than the game needs. I have watched players come up from the ranks of bar players, calling everything, even straight in shots. I've noticed that there becomes an anxiety which butchers many of their shots, and it is usually something I try to "coach out of" them ASAP. Not verbalizing is the best frame of mental/physical approach. Banks are a given, but if I have a hanging OB behind a cluster I ain't going to call 2-3 caroms in finding it. BCA rules.

I'll apologize for saying I would laugh the guy out of the PH. I just have a short fuse for these wrong, trouble inciting rule sets...sid~~~avoids bar rules, too many arguments

Jay M
04-23-2002, 07:17 AM
Couple of common courtesy notes:

If you are only going to play a short time, let your opponent know before you start. You can always change your mind and continue, but at least your opponent knows that you will be leaving. If you only play one game and then walk away, many players will stop playing you.

If you are winning and didn't tell your opponent that you would be leaving, don't leave, let them quit or get back to a game or two away from even before you quit. If you are getting tired, give them a fair chance to get even. Offer to play them for what you've won so far(less a small amount to cover the table time) or play them enough games so that if they win every game they will end up even. That makes it look fair to them and they will come back for more. You really aren't risking anything, it's their money until the end of the night anyhow. Remember the old Kenny Rogers song The Gambler, there was a good saying there. "You don't count your money 'til the dealin's done".

It really doesn't matter what rules you play as long as you both know them and are playing by the same rules. Personally, I won't play a game with a rule set that I don't like and you've described one that has way too much room for interpretation. Granted, it's the set I learned on a long time ago, but there are too many arguments about what counts as a carom and what counts as a rail.

Jay M

Ralph S.
04-23-2002, 04:02 PM
I agree with Sid and the others here about the call it all garbage. It just causes headaches. As for playing longer, you should've, you had the upper hand. JMO.
Ralph S.

bigalerickson
04-23-2002, 06:57 PM
i definately think in retrospect I should have put more time in. I was just a bit excited/nervous and reacted to what I wanted to do, which was leave a winner. That probably should not have been the most important thing on my mind.

Also, as to call shots, I definately don't think they are necessary, nor will I ever play with them again, unless I already know I own the game.