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Paul_Mon
01-25-2004, 05:58 PM
I'm asking this same question over at RSB, so lets get it right.

The game is 1 pocket and player A (lets call him Tom because that's his real
name) owes 1 ball. Tom makes a successful shot into his pocket. On Tom's next
shot he thin cuts the 1 ball and rattles it in the jaws of his pocket. He
reaches into the ball return to spot the ball that he owes. Tom has the owed
ball in his hand is about to spot it when the 1 ball falls into his pocket.
What is the correct call? My opinion is that Tom conceded the miss on the 1
ball when he started spotting the owed ball. He relinquished his turn at the
table but should be credited the 1 ball. But his inning is over. Now what
would happen if Tom needed only 1 more ball to win the game?

Paul Mon~~~~no names were changed to protect the innocent

woody_968
01-25-2004, 06:14 PM
I would think it would depend on how long the ball had sat there.

From BCA web site
"3.31 BALLS MOVING SPONTANEOUSLY
If a ball shifts, settles, turns or otherwise moves “by itself,” the ball shall remain in the position it assumed and play continues. A hanging ball that falls into a pocket “by itself” after being motionless for 5 seconds or longer shall be replaced as closely as possible to its position prior to falling, and play shall continue."

To me, him reaching to spot a ball wouldnt really matter. If he had turned around and started walking back to his chair that would be an indication he had thought he missed, if the ball fell then would he have given up the table?

To say that the ball counts but his inning is over doesnt sound right, either it counts or it doesnt.

JMO

Paul_Mon
01-25-2004, 06:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr>
To me, him reaching to spot a ball wouldnt really matter. If he had turned around and started walking back to his chair that would be an indication he had thought he missed, if the ball fell then would he have given up the table?

JMO <hr /></blockquote>

I disagree. He had to spot a ball when his inning ended. By starting the act of spotting the ball he's implying that he thinks the ball has come to rest and it will not fall. Had he waited at the table for the ball to fall it would imply that he thinks it had not come to rest and may still fall.

Troy
01-25-2004, 07:18 PM
Spot the balls he owes. Replace the ball the dropped "by itself". Inning over, opponent's turn. He still needs one ball the way I read the orogonal post.

Troy

Chris Cass
01-25-2004, 10:26 PM
I agree Troy.

Regards,

C.C.

houstondan
01-26-2004, 12:26 AM
if you're playing bca, then the only real rule that comes into play is the 5 second rule. the rest of that stuff is interesting but does not matter.

dan

woody_968
01-26-2004, 11:25 AM
Paul, are you saying that if the ball fell within the five seconds then he still doesnt get credit? Just want to be clear. The rule doesnt state that you have to stand there looking at the ball waiting for it to fall, it just says it must fall within 5 seconds. There are many ways one can react and "concede" that the ball didnt go, but if it falls within the time limit according to the rules then I would think it would count.

Paul_Mon
01-26-2004, 04:28 PM
I'd never heard about the 5 second rule. IMO, the 5 second rule could be cause arguments. What I've seen around here amongst 14.1 players is "giving up the table". Players turn their back to the table and walk away. That is one form of "giving up the table". In the instance that happened yesterday the act of spotting the owed ball indicated to me that Tom had "conceded the miss". But, if the 5 second rule is legit then I was wrong and I'll live by the 5 second rule. That said I can not tell you wether or not 5 seconds elapsed after the ball in question had apparently stopped. I doubt Tom could tell you with certainty either. Had we been playing for money I would have suggested that the game be played over.

Paul

woody_968
01-26-2004, 04:33 PM
If locally you normally play by "giving up the table" rules so to speak I would agree with you and his turn at the table would be over. And I agree using the 5 second rule does leave much room for debate /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

houstondan
01-26-2004, 04:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Paul_Mon:</font><hr> I'd never heard about the 5 second rule. IMO, the 5 second rule could be cause arguments. What I've seen around here amongst 14.1 players is "giving up the table". Players turn their back to the table and walk away. That is one form of "giving up the table". In the instance that happened yesterday the act of spotting the owed ball indicated to me that Tom had "conceded the miss". But, if the 5 second rule is legit then I was wrong and I'll live by the 5 second rule. That said I can not tell you wether or not 5 seconds elapsed after the ball in question had apparently stopped. I doubt Tom could tell you with certainty either. Had we been playing for money I would have suggested that the game be played over.

Paul <hr /></blockquote>

obviously, this thing does come up which is why bca made up a rule (balls moving spontaneously 3.31 in the 2003 book) to cover it. the way they say it; if the ball has completely stopped, sits there for more than 5 seconds, then falls, it should be put back up. not only that, if it falls while you're shooting at it and you don't hit it cause it aint there no-more...you restore and shoot again. this get's the ref out of having to call a foul on the shooter cause he moved the table when he leaned into it on the shot. course, with my table you'd have to lean on it with a buick to get it to move.

also, while we're at it...bca does talk about concession to say that if you concede you lose the match. but then they clarify it further to say if you uncrews your playing cue "during the opponents decisive game of the match" then you lose. it's their "anti-sharking" rule which is a lot like legislating against sex, drugs and rockn'roll.

dan

ragbug74
01-27-2004, 09:35 AM
As far as "conceding" your turn at the table....how many times have you been playing and someone thinks they dogged a shot and says "I missed it" while the shot is in motion? Do they now "concede" their turn? I don't see a difference between this and reaching into a pocket as either way, the person has acknowledged they think they have missed. I've never seen anyone held to this type of ruling. The 5 second rule is pretty fair, easy to call/enforce, and the BCA standard.

Pelican
01-27-2004, 08:33 PM
Who times it on their watch? The shooter or the opponent? Nobody, I would guess. What if one says "It was more than 5 seconds" and the other says "NO, it was less than 5 seconds". If the time factor is close does the decision go to the shooter? Who decides 'close'?

woody_968
01-28-2004, 12:32 PM
Thats a good question. In most cases I think if there is a close call it normally goes to the shooter. Like on a split hit, if you cant tell for sure then the shooter gets the call.

Bob_Jewett
01-30-2004, 07:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Who times it on their watch? The shooter or the opponent? <hr /></blockquote>

If the ball stops on the brink, just start counting out loud slowly.

I think the first version of the rule that said five seconds was in the PBA 1988 rules (before the PBTA):

Stopped

A ball resting on the brink of a pocket is considered to have stopped if it remains motionless for five seconds, as determined by the referee. If any player or spectator causes such a ball to fall in before the five second limit by bumping or otherwise moving the table, the ball will be replaced at the edge of the pocket and is not considered pocketed. The time begins when all other balls have stopped and the shot ends at the end of the five seconds.

Bob Jewett