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UWPoolGod
01-26-2004, 04:18 PM
What experience do you have with backers fronting your end of the money? Do you do a straight 50/50? There is a guy that I know from my local tourney that wants me to play some people on his money. I know he has backed other players in the past so I am not worried about being stiffed if I happen to lose. He is going to pick players he knows have money and are comparible in speed or weaker. Should I do it? If there are no regrets?

woody_968
01-26-2004, 04:29 PM
I have played some with backers and normally gone with a 50/50 split. There are good and bad things about it, some people play better knowing its not their money if they loose, this makes some people play worse.

I used to like to have a backer take half my action. That way I had my money on the line too, so he never could think I wasnt giving it my best. Not to mention that way every 20 I bet I could win 30.

Popcorn
01-26-2004, 04:54 PM
I don't like playing with a backer at all. I don't even want anyone betting on the side with the guy I am playing or his backer, it is none of their business. If they are betting with the guy I am playing or his backer they cut into my potential winnings. I may have good reason for not raising the bet, and I don't want someone on the side jumping and saying, "I'll take that other fifty". I will tell you a funny story. When I was about 16, I was in a place I went often and there was a guy there looking to play. I don't have any money on me, but this guy on the side named Connor, a real hillbilly type of guy sitting at the bar calls me over and tells me to go ahead and play the guy he would stake me. We start playing for $10.00 a game, a pretty good bet at that time. We are marking up the money and I right off the bat, I get stuck. I manage to get down about $50 or $60 when I realize Connor is nowhere around, he's gone. I have like $5.00 in my pocket but I decide to keep playing with no idea what I am going to do if he asks to settle up at some point. To make a long story short I managed to get even and beat the guy for around $80.00 before he quits. The next time I see this Connor guy I am wondering what he is going to say. He never said a word, I guess he was drunk or nuts or something, but he never mentioned it.

Popcorn
01-26-2004, 05:07 PM
Quote
"I used to like to have a backer take half my action. That way I had my money on the line too, so he never could think I wasnt giving it my best. "

You are better off playing for less and taking all the bet. You can always raise it if things start going your way and bust the guy with his own money. Why give someone half of your winnings? Most times when someone asks for half your bet, it is because it is a lock. You are always better off playing for what you feel comfortable with.

SPetty
01-26-2004, 05:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> I used to like to have a backer take half my action. That way I had my money on the line too, so he never could think I wasnt giving it my best. Not to mention that way every 20 I bet I could win 30. <hr /></blockquote>I don't get it. Every $20 y'all bet, you're in for $10 and backer is in for $10. If you win, then y'all win $20, you get $10 and backer gets $10. How do you get $30 from that?

SPetty~~~can you tell I'm not a gambler?

woody_968
01-26-2004, 06:00 PM
If he is taking half my action, and I have to put up 20, then he is also putting up 20 (total bet 40) So I won my 20 and 10 from his 20.

Sorry I didnt make that more clear.

woody_968
01-26-2004, 06:03 PM
Popcorn, I rarely let anyone take any of my action any more, I used to when I was short on cash. I understand what you are saying, but by letting them take part of my action was like getting odds on my money. Yes they liked to get in on it because while its not always a total lock, I am a tight gambler and dont make many games Im not the favorite in.

Troy
01-26-2004, 06:34 PM
I've seen both players and 'horses get carved up, so I would stay away. Also, I just can't understand anyone signing up for the position of 'horse.

Troy

Eric.
01-26-2004, 08:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> If he is taking half my action, and I have to put up 20, then he is also putting up 20 (total bet 40) So I won my 20 and 10 from his 20.

Sorry I didnt make that more clear. <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Woody, I'm confused too.

If your backer has half your action, doesn't that mean he is splitting half of your losses as well as half the winnings? If that is the case, using your $40 bet example, the winnings amount to $40 and half would be $20, right? In other words, if the pot is $80, you both take your $20 back, then whack up the the remaining $40 so you both make $20 on your original $20. Does that sound right?


Eric &gt;did the math on my fingers /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

woody_968
01-26-2004, 08:13 PM
Sorry to make this so confusing, He was taking half the action, so on a 40 bet he bet 20 and I put up 20. He splits his winnings with me, so he really only put up 20, of which I got 10. I would get the total amount that I had put up which was 20.

$40 total bet.
I put up $20
Backer put up $20

I win my $20, Backer wins $20 but then gives me $10 for my half. So I bet $20 to win $30.

Popcorn
01-26-2004, 08:34 PM
Here is a hypothetical, You friend backs you against an unknown player and you win. You get your half. A few days later the player comes in and asks you if you want to play some more. The backer is not around but you want to play and you have seen the guy is no champion so you play. Do you have an unspoken agreement with your backer that every time you play he is in for half regarding this player? I had something like this happen. A friend of mine went off to a guy and asked me to play the guy some. I let him back me and we managed to get his money back from the guy. Now a few days later I play the guy some more and end up beating him for almost $4000. over a couple of days. My friend hears about this and actually felt he was in, and had a right to some of the money. I told him, we don't have a contract here, that was a one time happening and what happens between me and the other player has nothing to do with him. This stuff can get sticky. I had the same thing happen the other way around. Jimmy Reid comes in the pool room and is looking to play. Another guy and my self decide to back one of the players in the room a guy named Neil, playing him one pocket. Neil is a good one pocket player and Reid didn't play that good a one pocket at that time so it seemed like a pretty good game. Neil beats Reid for I think $600. playing $200. a game. After it is over we decide to give Neil half, it was fun and Neil played real good. The next day Reid is back to play some more. We do the same deal and Neil loses $1400 at the end of the night. Reid offers him some weight to play the next day, it sounds good so we agree. The next day with the break Neil beats him for a $1000. and that is it, Reid does not want to play anymore and leaves. Now the problem Neil wants half of the thousand. The thing is we lost $1400. the day before. I told him, you can't have half every time you win and we pay 100% when you lose, in this case it does not work that way. We won a total of $1600 and lost $1400. We are only $200 ahead and have already given you $300. The story goes on but you see how this stuff can get messy.

Troy
01-26-2004, 08:49 PM
Seems to me you two already split it once but now you're asking him to split his half of the split. Nice if you can convince him he's brain dead.


troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> Sorry to make this so confusing, He was taking half the action, so on a 40 bet he bet 20 and I put up 20. He splits his winnings with me, so he really only put up 20, of which I got 10. I would get the total amount that I had put up which was 20.

$40 total bet.
I put up $20
Backer put up $20

I win my $20, Backer wins $20 but then gives me $10 for my half. So I bet $20 to win $30. <hr /></blockquote>

woody_968
01-26-2004, 10:09 PM
LOL, he's not brain dead. Its the same as he is backing me for $20, and I am betting $20 on the side.

sack316
01-27-2004, 02:43 AM
I luckily have a backer thats a good friend of mine, and we're just really good at working together. he doesn't know enough to seek out matches, so I do all of that, but he usually has the money. If I have cash and want to play on my own he's fine, or if I'm out and he's not but come across some action he'a phone call away anytime even to transfer money onto my card over the phone and stuff... or if he happens to need a few bucks I'll play for him.He's actually been so nice as to put up 100% if I lose, yet only take 50% if I win (of course he knows I have a good feel about if I will win or not, so he trusts me). Just got lucky I guess!

Chris Cass
01-27-2004, 03:17 AM
Hi UWPoolGod,

First let me point out, IMO if you don't need the back, don't get one.

I had a guy backing me for some $100. sets. I'm winning and we split. No problem. I'm under the impression that he takes all loses and pointed that out to him after losing one time like $800. He expected me to pay him back. Well, I told him he takes all the loses. Why on earth would I give him half if it's a loan?

Another time, I too asked a guy to back me when I had the nuts playing. Well, I lost the first set for $100. and I look over to the back and he turns away. Well, the guy wanted me to pay him right then before we played another set. The guy knew I had been backed by this guy and when I went over to him to get the money. He told me that I was suppose to win and he's not paying for that $hit. I was pi$$ed to say the least. Ended up I went to my friend and asked him for a C-note and paid the guy. I also had to drive this friend to my house and write him a check for the hundred and then had to explain to K-Mom what happened.

The kicker was the back. I run into the guy about 2 yrs later. He's a fairly good shot and he did take off IA State tourney one yr. Anyway, he asked to play me some one pocket. I said sure, $50. a game. I said lets post the money up. He said, I have money and flashed me a pocket full of $50.'s. He said, I won't stiff ya and we'll pay after every game. I like a dummy agreed. Well, needless to say I won 8 games straight. He paid me each and everytime.

Now, the guy is frustraighted because I'm torturing him and he says to me, " Lets play a race to 3 for $200." I say ok but you'll have to post it. He agree's. I win all 3 games straight. That's 11 games, and this guy is due to win one set, I imagine. So, he says "Lets play a race to 3 for $600." I say, "No way, I'll play you for $200. that's it." He agrees but when it's time to post he says Jesse and Rod is backing him. I said that's fine, but I need to post it. Rod tells me play him, that they gave him already $200. for the last set. Although, the $1200. would have been a nice payday, I could smell something fishy. I agreed to play him another set for the $200. and beat him another 3 games straight. Jesse and Rod are nowhere to be seen. The guy I'm playing tells me they were backing him and there's no problem getting the money from Jess. I call Jess and of course both guys denie it. Well, I'm still out the $200. but the good side is I paid the guy back for sticking me before and he doesn't come in the hall anymore. I consider that a good deal.

Another time, I went to a tourney in Cedar Rapids and got knocked out of the tourney early. Well, I ran into a guy that runs with Steve Rector(sp?) from St. Louis I believe. Anyway, this guy wants to play some $100. sets on a bar box and I have like $300. on me and I know I needed more doe. I see Jess and ask if he'll loan me a couple hundred and he says he'll loan it or take half the action, which ever. I said, take half. Needless to say I won $400. in a blink of an eye and played the last set for $200. and won that too. I was hurting inside knowing I'd have to split with Jess when the game was so slanted in my favor. Not that the guy didn't play jam up. It's just I couldn't do anything wrong. I was in dead gear. I did split and Jess did give me 10% jelly for the win. I took that and paid time.

To make along story already longer. I only like a back when I'm short and it never fails. You always run into something when you least expect it. LOL

Regards,

C.C.~~never lets gambling hurt his family.

Foxtrott
01-27-2004, 05:54 AM
Hey where this 50/50 split comes from I wish I knew .Ive never seen anything better out of a good bankroll than 30%.I mean yes they pick up most the tabs but it does not add up to no 20% . I think its best to keep a roll of cash hidden for such ocasions when you feel you may have a fish on the hook .I would not stand at $100 a rack on someone elses money .A good backer will entise the game to be a race for a good amount .Maybe a $1000 freezeout . From there you can make some winnings . I have also seen a couple guys end up not so pretty after a big loss when the bankroll became too unhappy .You need to remember a bankroll is basically a gambler that thinks the odds are in his/her favor but in all fact they are still a gambler and gamblers do not win all the time.I was fortunate enough to have a bankroll without and attitude that could pull me from a game and did stand for thousands and thousands while I wore a player down . This will usually cost 30% if your lucky. Sounds to me on the story from abouve the backer did not have the cash in the first place .Yes backers have been also known to get so far into a games that they forget themselves and then when it is time to pay the piper they are hitting you with the fastest way to make it to the door and you never will.My suggestion is not to take on a backer unless you have enough to cover the game in your pocket and the game will payout a good enough amount on the line to make it worth your while also .I would never lock down for less than $300 and thats a $1000 freezeout . If they wont play you for that dont play them andd they will come back when they got it .The major benefit of having a backer is your not going to loose your own money . That does not mean go to the table broke . Just keep the game to what you have in your pocket . ALWAYS make the guy pay you infront of the players also / I have heard too many a tale of a bankroll getting in the car and saying well Im keeping the most of your share for the last big loss you had.If they are a reputable steak horse they will pay in front of the players as not to loose their reputation .I find it better to pay VISA their 18% interest to be my backer than to give someone 70% but we all learn.

Foxtrott
01-27-2004, 06:12 AM
I have not met too many "REAL" stakehorses in my life .There are a few but not as many as people make out to be and most the times its the local bookie or loan shark guys you dont want to be involed with in the fist place and the benift of not worrying about the money is lost when you play on their money. I was lucky to have someone that could watch the action 100% and handle anything that came up odd and I could concentrate on my game 100%.We still went to breakfast after the losses also so I was lucky.But Troys right they are few and far that will put their cash up and still have a sain personality.

Eric.
01-27-2004, 09:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr> Sorry to make this so confusing, He was taking half the action, so on a 40 bet he bet 20 and I put up 20. He splits his winnings with me, so he really only put up 20, of which I got 10. I would get the total amount that I had put up which was 20.

$40 total bet.
I put up $20
Backer put up $20

I win my $20, Backer wins $20 but then gives me $10 for my half. So I bet $20 to win $30. <hr /></blockquote>

So what you're sayin is that your backer is willing to lose $20 to make $10?!

That's not how it's normally done, but it is a good deal for you...


Eric

Chris Cass
01-27-2004, 09:45 AM
Hi Eric,

The way I see it is, that the back is either too tight with his doe or Woody like most players feels that he needs to make more. It's like this. If I'm gambling on the game. Why should the back make more than me? I'm doing all the work and although the back takes all the risk I make sure that my chances winning are better. Only because I make sure I get into a game I can win. Not to mention the back. He or she will also only back a player unless they know they have a good bet. Otherwise, why would they back anyone?

If I need a back it's because I'm short of what my opponent brought to the match. I also won't think about it unless I know I have the best of a situation. To me, I never want to lose when being backed. That way I'll always get one. I do know of several backs that been burnt because they've been set up. Also have seen where players were looking for any action and could care less if they if the back loses. They just want a chance to win anything or get their gambling fix. To me that's BS.

I had a kid that's a "D" player asking me to back him. Why on God green earth would you back a player, did I say player? That can't shoot a lick against another "D"? This is where the fix comes in. When a "A" player loses against a "C" player. I'm not talking a set or two but for a good session than, the set up might be in play.

Regards,

C.C.~~strickly MHO. Eric, if I ever ask you for a back you can guarentee, I got the dead nuts. With my own money I might go in the blind once in awhile. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Eric.
01-27-2004, 10:36 AM
I'm with ya, brother. I don't like to back people nor be backed. I've seen too many people get carved up over the dough.

In my previous post, I thought Woody's backer wasn't doing good business for himself with that deal.


Eric &gt;got yer back

cheesemouse
01-27-2004, 10:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UWPoolGod:</font><hr> What experience do you have with backers fronting your end of the money? Do you do a straight 50/50? There is a guy that I know from my local tourney that wants me to play some people on his money. I know he has backed other players in the past so I am not worried about being stiffed if I happen to lose. He is going to pick players he knows have money and are comparible in speed or weaker. Should I do it? If there are no regrets? <hr /></blockquote>



Just my personal opinion but........

The 'horse' issue never seems, for me anyway, to work out smoothly. I have always tried to play on my own money; no funny business that way. It is hard enough to make a good game on your own when your in total control of the money. Confounding the matchup with others motives and issues is too much to fade and has never been condusive to catching a gear, for me anyway.

When cash strapped pool players allow a horse in, that player, is also giving that person control of their reputation as a player. In the long run, as a player, your best asset is a 'good' reputation as a player who is always good honest action. I have never understood why a player would give up control of their most precious plus, that being, a rep as a good game....I guess you can tell that I subscribe to the notion of 'if you can't pay don't play'. I have played many games where the other guy is getting backed, he is woofing and trying to highroll the bet thinking he is doing his backers bidding.

It has been my experience that the guy who usually ends up with the money in a good gambling session it is the guy who moves the bet at the right time. If you remain in control of your own money games you have a better idea of when it's time to jack the bet. Only you know when big mo has change and you just happen too have caught your highgear, that is when the $hit hits the fan, that is when all the woofing and highrolling backfires on them. You, as the player, are the one who best knows when these postive conditions exist, and then can use your best instincts to take advantage. If you have given up control of the game to a horse you miss out on some of those rare game ending situations...I love playing backed players because most of the time they are just freewheeling idiots who have no real stake in the game. Most player/horse relationships are short term and they are never really know sure where they stand with each other, that doubt can be taken advantage of when your in control of the bank.

I don't care what other people do with their money but I do what I want with my OWN money and I only have to answer to myself, whom I am quite comfortable with. If I give up any of my action it is to some dork detective I juice for some good steering and those guys usually come pretty cheap...LOL

Popcorn
01-27-2004, 10:39 AM
Since he is having to give up half of what may be won, suppose he decides early he doesn't like the game and pulls out. Do you quit, even if you like the game, or take the whole bet now? Most players you are playing don't want to lower a bet after playing for a while. Also if as you say most of your games are a lock anyway, why would you want anyone involved in your business? Most of the backers I have seen around pool rooms over the years were just angels who put players in action without much real interest in the outcome. They like action and like being a part of what is going on. They are not doing it for the money at all, it gives them a little status, they can't play but want to be one of the guys. They usually get taken advantage of though.

woody_968
01-27-2004, 01:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>
So what you're sayin is that your backer is willing to lose $20 to make $10?!

That's not how it's normally done, but it is a good deal for you...


Eric

<hr /></blockquote>

Then how is it nomally done? If I had no money on the line and he was backing me, he is not going to get all the money if I win. Why would I play if that was the case. The backer is always betting more than he is actually going to win if he is really backing it, otherwise he is simply side betting.

UWPoolGod
01-27-2004, 01:44 PM
Sorry I hadn't responded yet but I posted that yesterday as I was leaving work. Thanks for all of the information and stories on the subject. The backer has staked people before and has also lost money with them. He is a card player so gambling is in his nature and probably looking for the next easy place to get some cash. I have just recently started playing for a little more than just $1/$2 ring games. Not to say I haven't done it in the past, just that I am a little more confident in my game versus some of the other players lately. I am not in the position right now that I can just introduce a "wad" of cash in my wallet to front my stake if I play for anything more than $50-$100. PPS - Poor Poolplayers Syndrome. This backer has taken thousands off of some other players back when he was playing serious a few years ago, but hasn't played much lately and his game has slipped.

I don't know...my best friend has some extra money laying around and he could probably back me if I asked him...but then it could possibly strain the friendship. Thanks for the advise guys.

Eric.
01-27-2004, 02:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote woody_968:</font><hr>
Then how is it nomally done? If I had no money on the line and he was backing me, he is not going to get all the money if I win. Why would I play if that was the case. The backer is always betting more than he is actually going to win if he is really backing it, otherwise he is simply side betting. <hr /></blockquote>

All I'm saying, Woody is that if your back has half your action, it sounds more like he ie your partner. Partners share in winnings and losings equally(assuming it's 50/50). Using your example of playing for $40 a game, even if you drilled your opponent say, 15-10 in a race to 15, your backer is out$50 after the dust settles. If you and your back havea different arrangement, that's cool. In fact, that is a sweet deal for you-minimize your losses when you lose and maximize your winnings when you win.

In the situation where the backer is covering all of your action, you are correct that the back has more at risk than his winning potential. That brings back the age old question of "Why would anyone wanna be a backer?".

The bottom line is that this is all opinion, I hope you didn't get offended. If the arrangement works for the both of you, then carry on. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif


Eric

UWPoolGod
01-27-2004, 03:01 PM
Yeah the backer is willing to put forward the entire amount while getting half the winnings back and taking all of the losses if I were to lose. Seems as if I had nothing to lose in the agreement but I would have to make it absolutely clear to the guy i was playing that I am getting backed by him and that if I lose he has to go to him for the money.

Wally_in_Cincy
01-27-2004, 03:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>

...In the situation where the backer is covering all of your action, you are correct that the back has more at risk than his winning potential....<hr /></blockquote>

But woody is doing all the work.

I didn't want to respond to this because the only experience I have was when I used to back a local gal for small stakes. I took all the risk and kept half her winnings.

Re: the question "why would anyone be a backer?", the answer is "to see the look on those macho guys' faces when she took their money" /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

and she always took their money.

Popcorn
01-27-2004, 04:44 PM
You and your partner are in equally splitting the bet, the fact that you are the one doing the playing doesn't matter. Using your logic, if you should happen to play bad and blow the money, you owe him some of his money back since you were the one that lost it. especially if you played real bad and dogged it off.

woody_968
01-27-2004, 04:45 PM
Eric, absolutly no offense taken at all. I think it all got confusing by the wording I used in the first post. When I said let a backer take half the action, maybe I should have said that he backed me for half of the stakes.

ajrack
01-28-2004, 12:31 AM
Back in the old days, when I was in college, I had (2) backers who not only bet on me but also set up many of my matches. I got 1/3 of the total money won and they paid for ALL expenses and losses! After talking to many players, I realised that this was one of the best deals a player could have. Paid for a few years of college.
By the way, one of the guys had his own plane and we could fly up to Bakersfield or Fresno from LA.. in just couple of hours in the afternoon to play a match and be back home that night.

#### leonard
01-28-2004, 07:39 AM
I had 2 backers and took 1/3 of the winnings and none of the losses. That way we were always starting from even.

One was a poolroom owner from Hudson Ny, Ralph Laurella and the other was a former middleweight boxer from Poughkeepsie, Dominick "Father Dominick" Youvella . When dressed in his black sports jacket, dark grey flannels and turtle neck, he look just like a priest on his day off. We were chauffered by Ralph's cousin "Fatso" who had a bad habit of dosing off at the wheel. Fatso ran an Italian restaurant bearing that name.

We had more laughs then one could imagine, I am only sorry that the internet wasn't up then because I would have written a book.

The one thing that sticks in my mind was Ralph was always worried about getting stuck up. He would say I don't know this poolroom looks bad and Father Dominick would say what are you worried about and Ralph would say what if they have guns and Father Dominick would say don't worry Ralph they to pull them first. ####

JimS
01-28-2004, 07:12 PM
Thanks ####....and keep'm comin. Love your stories and wish you had written a book.

#### leonard
01-29-2004, 07:27 AM
Jim, we went to a poolroom in Conn, whose owner was playing high stakes straight pool. When we arrived at the room he wasn't there but Johnny Vivas was. He was the winner of the first Johnson City One Pocket tournament. I fooled around playing him $10 a game. Trying not to show any speed, if the real target showed.

I got a lesson in one pocket, which was every time you have left him really safe, he would just slam the balls around and oops one would fall in his pocket and he would win the game.

The owner never showed but when we got back to Hudson, Ralphs beautiful wife, Rita had been arrested for bookmaking. She was just filling in for Ralph.

That made future road trips a big joke. Ralph would have to leave Rita's bail bail money with his lawyer. We would be laughing so hard, it would take Fatso 10 minutes before he could get the car going, safely.####

JimS
01-29-2004, 05:46 PM
You da man #### ! Thanks!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I'm thinkin you must have a million of'm