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houstondan
01-27-2004, 03:33 PM
as i read the rules for shooting a frozen ball, it says that one of the options is for the cue ball to hit "another rail". this is where the object ball is frozen. under bca, i can hit the frozen ball and let the cb slide right into the same rail. does tx-ex really mean what it says???

dan

Iowashark
01-27-2004, 03:42 PM
In BCA the cue ball will have to travel to a different rail if the object ball is frozen on a rail as well.

Wally_in_Cincy
01-27-2004, 03:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If the lowest numbered object ball is frozen to a rail, the player must 1) drive that object ball to another rail, or 2) drive another numbered ball to the rail resulting from a hit initiated by the lowest numbered ball struck, or <font color="red"> 3) drive the cue ball to another rail, </font color> or 4) legally pocket a numbered ball. Failure to do any of these resulting from an object ball being frozen to the rail results in a cue ball-in- hand foul. The frozen object ball must be declared and the opponent must acknowledge prior to the shot.
<hr /></blockquote>

That's what it says. But surely that's not what they mean. That would be a new one on me.

sandgnat
01-27-2004, 04:15 PM
In my opinion, the rule is poorly written. I think one needs to examine the intent of the rule being described. As we all know, at least one ball on the table must be driven into a rail or pocketed subsequent to legal contact, unless of course the cue ball is the one pocketed, and with legal contact defined as the cue ball striking the lowest numbered ball on the table prior to contact with any other ball. If the object ball is frozen to a cushion, it seems to me that if one caused the frozen ball to return to this same rail as a result of a carom, it should count as being a legal shot. That is not what the rule states, however. I personally think the rule should be refined to accommodate this possibility. Oops, I have strayed from your point. I agree with you that once the cue ball hits an object ball frozen to the rail, IF the cue ball strikes the object ball prior to contact with said rail, the cue ballís subsequent contact with the rail ought to make it a legal hit. Again, the rule as cited doesnít allow for that. Here again, I believe the rule is poorly written. I would certainly like to hear somebody elseís opinion regarding this matter. Writing a comprehensive set of rules for a game like this must be an extremely difficult task indeed.

P.S. How do I get the Free Martha Stewart?

WaltVA
01-27-2004, 04:19 PM
Nope, BCA General Rule 3.38 says -
"OBJECT BALL FROZEN TO CUSHION OR CUE BALL
This rule applies to any shot where the cue ballís first contact with a ball is with one that is frozen to a cushion or to the cue ball itself. After the cue ball makes contact with the frozen object ball, the shot must result in either:

(a) A ball being pocketed, or;

(b) <font color="blue">The cue ball contacting a cushion </font color>, or;

(c) The frozen ball being caused to contact a cushion attached to a separate rail, or;

(d) Another object ball being caused to contact a cushion with which it was not already in contact. Failure to satisfy one of those four requirements is a foul...."

Just "A cushion," not ANOTHER cushion.

Walt in VA

UWPoolGod
01-27-2004, 04:19 PM
Yeah that is a new one on me as well. Either the OB has to be driven to a new rail or the cueball must hit a rail after contact.

This frozen issue came up in the last game of a tourney I played in on Sunday. I was sitting on point, the losers bracket guy beat me 2-1 and then it was 1-1 in the last set. He had this leave which I called frozen. He was shooting the 8 and tried to play safe on the right side of the 8ball but he hit it too soft and didn't get the rail with the cueball. I called foul, took ball in hand and ran the two balls to win the tourney. Terrible way to win, but those are the rules.

START(
%AO5E3%H^6C9%P_8K0%U_5D8%V_4D9%W_2E7%X_6I9%Y]6D4%Z]7D2

)END

In retrospect though it may have double kissed the 8 into the rail twice...but I guess the rules are in there to take that "per-chance" occurance out of the realm of arguement.

SPetty
01-27-2004, 04:40 PM
I have always wondered this, ever since I read those rules. I have never, ever seen this called on anyone ever.

Try to remember to ask this of randyg when you see him this weekend, and get back to us and tell us what he says. He was a co-author of the Texas Express rules, I believe.

JimS
01-27-2004, 04:46 PM
I think, like the others who've posted here, that the rule is just poorly written and that the INTENT is that the cb or ob hit a cushion after being struck..A CUSHION not another cushion.

Is there a Texas Express Rules committee you can petition about this?

I somehow doubt it.

Good luck and I hope it doesn't involved the loss of several thousand bucks!! or somethun. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

houstondan
01-27-2004, 04:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Iowashark:</font><hr> In BCA the cue ball will have to travel to a different rail if the object ball is frozen on a rail as well. <hr /></blockquote>

no, no and no. that's exactly not what bca says or means. i've been thru this with very senior bca rules people and there is no doubt about that. tx-ex added the word "another".

dan

sandgnat
01-27-2004, 05:47 PM
Dan, could you please elaborate a little bit on the "no, no, and no" as to what you are referring to specifically? Are saying that te-ex intentionally added the word "another" and that the intent of the BCA rule is meant to indicate the same call. I am a little confused. Thanks!

houstondan
01-27-2004, 06:06 PM
i have a couple of friends, one of whom wrote most of the bca rules and the other a big time bca ref. sometimes they play a game " you make the call" and this is one of their favorites. the rule refers to frozen "OBJECT BALL". the rule does not care if the cb is frozen or not.

if the object ball is frozen then it must be sent to another rail (not cushion - rail) or the cb is sent to a rail after impact. the cb can impact the same rail the ob is froze to. no problem. when tx-ex re-wrote the bca rule they added the word "another" before rail. now, since they didn't say the cb was frozen then i don't know what "another" means for the cb. it could mean "a rail other than the one to which the ob was frozen" but that's silly. as long as the cb hits a ball then a rail, it's a legal shot.

and, while were at it. the rule says rail. there are only 4 rails and 6 cushions. if the ob is froze on a side rail below a pocket and you hit it off that rail then carom off another ball and into another cushion on the other side of that pocket, then you have hit the same rail and it's a foul.

yes it is.

dan

woody_968
01-27-2004, 06:23 PM
I was wondering when someone was going to bring up the different rail thing. Alot of people dont know thats in the rules.

sandgnat
01-27-2004, 08:45 PM
Okay, I now understand the rule. But why? If my logic is correct, the point of the rule is to prevent players from playing "safetys" that don't really change the lay of the table. In other words, the point is to prevent a player from seeing he has no shot and basically giving the same table back to the other player, causing a stalemate situation. The wording of this rule seems to go beyond this basic intent for no reason that is apparent to me. Can you or anybody else enlighten me as to the purpose of this rule? Thanks again.

Tom_In_Cincy
01-27-2004, 09:34 PM
HDJ
It's been my understanding that when a ball is frozen to the cushion, (notice I didn't say RAIL)and the cue ball must hit the OB. One of 3 things must happen or it is a foul. The OB must travel to another cushion or the cue ball must hit a cushion or another ball may be subsequently (after the cue ball hits the OB and the OB or CB hits the 3rd ball) go to a cushion.

I understand why you are asking the question, but have I missed something here?

Please, now you have me real curious.. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

houstondan
01-27-2004, 10:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> HDJ
It's been my understanding that when a ball is frozen to the cushion, (notice I didn't say RAIL)and the cue ball must hit the OB. One of 3 things must happen or it is a foul. The OB must travel to another cushion or the cue ball must hit a cushion or another ball may be subsequently (after the cue ball hits the OB and the OB or CB hits the 3rd ball) go to a cushion.

I understand why you are asking the question, but have I missed something here?

Please, now you have me real curious.. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif <hr /></blockquote>

maybe i'm missing something, tom.

here's how i see it:

bca: cue ball can hit the frozen ball, it goes nowhere, cueball hits cushion immediately next to frozen object ball. no foul.

tex-ex(6.5 object ball frozen to a rail): after impact, you must " drive the cue-ball to ANOTHER rail."


whats "another rail"??? why?

tell me please

dan

Tom_In_Cincy
01-28-2004, 04:53 PM
HDJ,
I see now.. it's a wording thing. BCA wording versus TE wording..

My guess is that if it said "Any rail" instead of "Another rail" this wouldn't be a discussion..

RandyG... where are you?

houstondan
01-28-2004, 05:56 PM
you've got it, tom. i guess i'll try to track randy down when i get to s.padre and ask him. there should be some kind of players meeting. other than that and a kinda hinky anti-stalemate rule, i'm not finding much in tx-ex that's different from bca. they left a lot of stuff out and changed some wording but it should be ok. looking forward to running the new crossfire down to padre and just having fun.

dan

JimS
01-28-2004, 06:14 PM
Sounds like big fun.....but what's a crossfire?

houstondan
01-28-2004, 06:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> Sounds like big fun.....but what's a crossfire? <hr /></blockquote>

it's a very small automobile. mercedes builds 'em &amp; chrysler sells 'em. kinda like an slk with a really nasty attitude. perfect for road trips.

dan..kids are grown so i get to keep the toys now!

SPetty
01-28-2004, 07:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> RandyG... where are you? <hr /></blockquote>randyg is in sunny South Padre Island, Texas playing golf, most likely. He's preparing to be the TD for the tourney that houstondan is studying the rules for! Wish I was going! Good luck, houstondan.

Barbara
01-28-2004, 07:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>randyg is in sunny South Padre Island, Texas playing golf, most likely. He's preparing to be the TD for the tourney that houstondan is studying the rules for! Wish I was going! Good luck, houstondan. <hr /></blockquote>

And good luck to RandyG!!

And houstondan should finally take that BCA Ref exam from RandyG!

Sorry I couldn't help with the rule, didn't understand what was frozen to what in the first place.

Barbara~~~learned a new one from Shamos in this month's BD, too...

houstondan
01-28-2004, 07:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> RandyG... where are you? <hr /></blockquote>randyg is in sunny South Padre Island, Texas playing golf, most likely. He's preparing to be the TD for the tourney that houstondan is studying the rules for! Wish I was going! Good luck, houstondan. <hr /></blockquote>

thanks a bunch, spetty. i've entered the seniors and (kinda like the last act of butch and sundance) i figure that if i look around and don't see buddy hall, how bad could it be???

((i know, i know, i've already been warned that the seniors might be tougher than the open at this thing. hey, it's a road trip, the weather's fine and anybody can win at 9-ball. isn't that what everybody says??))

dan

RedHell
01-30-2004, 01:42 PM
Ok so based on all this the following shot is a foul if the object ball is called frozen to the rail ?

START(
%A\6C9%BB6\2%CB8\1%DB8\1%EQ0U4%FB3\4%GI1K5%HO7J9%I K1S4%JB6B4
%KB7\3%LB3B3%MB5\2%NB8\0%OB8C0%Pa5I7%Q\6D3%RY7I2%W]7E5%Xa0I1
%Y[4C8%Z[9D0%[Z6H2%\Z2C3
)END

Cue ball hits the one and stop on A, one ball take off the side pocket point, hit the opposite point and stops on B.

FOUL !

Is that correct ?

woody_968
01-31-2004, 10:42 AM
Yes that is correct.