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Pelican
02-03-2004, 07:52 PM
OK, cheesemouse made a post about 9 ball and how it is tough. Some folks seem to think it's not the toughest (me included). SO, what is the toughest game played on a 9 foot six pocket table? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

NH_Steve
02-03-2004, 09:09 PM
No question, One Pocket vs Efren Reyes /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Given that most people figure Cliff Joyner is damn near the best One Pocket player, and Efren beat him despite giving him 8-7. In what other pool game does the best player give any of the other best players any kind of spot to play? Hard to even pin a 'best player' at 9-ball.

No question One Pocket is the hardest game to learn.
One of my favorite memories from the Derby City this year was watching (and listening to /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) Nick Varner give Johnny Archer an hour long or so tutorial on One Pocket before the matches started one morning. (Obviously before Varner was rushed to the hospital)

Popcorn
02-03-2004, 09:12 PM
Cribbage is a tough game. One pocket may be the toughest when played at a high level. It requires a lot of general knowledge, plus an ability to bank as well as run balls with more precision then straight pool. You also have to be able to maintain a level of play when you have not shot at a pocket in a while. You need at times to play the score, what is the right thing now, may be the wrong thing later. I think it just has more facets then other games.

charlieb
02-03-2004, 09:34 PM
I agree with Popcorn. I'm just learning the game and there are a ton of facets as Popcorn says. Plus the game is totally unforgiving!

cuttyshark
02-03-2004, 10:23 PM
I don't think that just because one-hole has a more move knowledge, strategy, and defensive orientation, that it's the most difficult or tougher than any other game.
The learning curve is, for sure, definitely longer.
With that, I've always held that a good shooter will, consistently, beat a good mover.
My vote goes for Rotation.

PQQLK9
02-04-2004, 05:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote NH_Steve:</font><hr>
One of my favorite memories from the Derby City this year was watching (and listening to /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) Nick Varner give Johnny Archer an hour long or so tutorial on One Pocket before the matches started one morning.<hr /></blockquote>
That would have been worth the price of admission for me.Maybe you will share some of what you heard.
I recall a story told to me by Willie Joplin about two players who were trying to make a game and one player said...
"Lets play Nine Ball because I want to see if you can make a ball"
and the other player said...
"Let's play One Pocket because I want to see if you can think"

Paul_Mon
02-04-2004, 06:31 AM
I'm a big fan of 1 pocket and believe it to be one of the most difficult games to master. But is it the toughest? The one and only game that I know of that least benefits from luck is bank pool. All other games have a higher degree of luck, banks has almost none. IMO, that makes it the toughest. This still dosen't sway my thinking that 1 Pocket is the most difficult to learn and master.

Paul Mon~~~~how's that for an answer??

stlshooter
02-04-2004, 08:56 AM
Yes I also feel that rotation is the most complete game and requires that largest set of skills to play well. The fact that you can not win on one ball but must rather play through a series of shots, clusters, kicks shots, etc. will more quickly develope someones overall game.

Popcorn
02-04-2004, 09:33 AM
Bank pool is sort of one dimensional. You won't, see someone draw the length of the table or kick a ball safe or even play that much position for that matter. If anything, on most shots the strategy is to shoot the bank and not leave another shot unless you feel very sure you will make the bank. In fact, bank pool in it's entirety, may make up only one element of one pocket. In banking a ball in a one pocket game, you may in fact have to do more with the shot, then banking a ball in a bank pool game. I don't think bank pool requires the most complete mastery of the game to play. It is one specialty of what can be done on a pool table. It would be like playing a game where the rules say you have to shoot only shots that are tough cuts or it doesn't count. The game would be very difficult on it's face, but would not really expose the overall skills of the players. One pocket displays all the players skills from banking, position play, shot making, to how to deal with complicated situations that may determine the outcome of the game, based on one decision or shot, and these are not rare situations, they come up many times in almost every game. Every skill is essential in one pocket whether it be banking, or just kicking a ball accurately a few inches. This is all just my opinion of course.

02-04-2004, 10:55 AM

Mike H
02-04-2004, 02:11 PM
I have to agree with Popcorn and say that one-pocket is the toughest game both to learn and to play at a high level. It requires the ability to pocket tough shots and play correct patterns and precise position, the ability to kick very accurately, good bank pool skills, and most importantly, great speed control (of both the CB and OB). Some people think that good 9 ball players can more easily make the transition to one-pocket and straight pool. I think the opposite is true. 1-P and straight pool will develop a player's ability to control the CB much more than 9 ball. I've seen tons of 9 ball players try to make the transition and just can't discipline themselves to do it correctly. I do think 9 ball is tough at times but the break is worth way too much. Ten ball and rotation are much more challenging games.

Pelican
02-04-2004, 02:13 PM
" I believe that 9 ball players could make the transition from 9 ball to straight pool or one pocket if they really wanted to, but the reverse is not usually true. "

I believe the Derby City matches proved that theory wrong.

I also believe any dedicated pool player can learn any game.

"To me, 9 ball is a 'man's game'" Know a few girls that would argue that point.

Any game that allows you to shoot at one pocket, miss and make the ball in another pocket, and then still keep shooting, cannot be the toughest game.

shoop1969
02-04-2004, 02:38 PM
I have to agree that 9 ball is the toughest game.

Think about the skill sets needed in billiards:
1. Potting balls. Nine ball, forever a "run-out" game, lends itself to shot makers. More nine ball games are finished in one inning than any other kind of game. This would be true even if the nine ball could not be made early.

2. Position play. Because there is NEVER an option of which ball will played after a given shot, position play is essential.

3. Defensive strategy. Because of modern day "ball-in-hand" rules, 9-ball players have become defensive masters. I have seen defensive battles of 10-12 innings of nothing but kick-safes in top tournaments.

While I think the arguments for one hole are convincing, the major difference I see is that in 9 ball, you never get a second chance. Close doesn't count, and herding balls is not an option.

eg8r
02-04-2004, 02:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
More nine ball games are finished in one inning than any other kind of game. This would be true even if the nine ball could not be made early.
<hr /></blockquote> This sentence in itself shows why 9-ball is not the toughest.

I think a lot of your post just mentions some of the skills needed, but show very little as to why it would make 9b the toughest.

eg8r &lt;~~~thinks 1p is the toughest

Rod
02-04-2004, 03:19 PM
There all tough, I can't make 4 friggin balls!

woody_968
02-04-2004, 03:29 PM
I dont know if I would say one pocket or straight pool would be the toughest. To play either one at a high level takes a large amount of knowledge and ability. One pocket takes more subtle moving around of the balls, and knowing different types of banks. But playing straight pool at a high level and being able to put several racks together to me may be the toughest of them all. Of course I am just trying to learn the game so maybe I dont have a clue as to what I am talking about.

It seems to me in one pocket it often comes down to one or two well played shots or safties that will win the game. But to run 75 balls in straight pool seems like it would take more than just a couple of key shots with all the breakouts that would be needed.

Just my .02

Fred Agnir
02-04-2004, 04:15 PM
8-ball. Definitely the toughest. or 7-ball. 3-ball?

Fred &lt;~~~ or maybe Artistic Finger Pool

Pelican
02-04-2004, 04:29 PM
Hey Fred, didn't think of Artistic. How many among us can jump a ball 11 feet into a cowboy boot on the floor? All hail Mike Massey! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

woody_968
02-04-2004, 04:48 PM
I saw a ball jumped 11 feet into a beer glass one time, but I dont think he could do it again /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bob_Jewett
02-04-2004, 06:26 PM
One pocket gets my vote.

It has a much wider range of common shots. On one shot, you might play a tiny little ticky that moves the cue ball a couple of inches, and on the next, you play position on a three cushion bank shot that happens to be your best way to run out. Standard 1P shots are never attempted at other games.

I think another aspect makes one pocket tough mentally: you often go from a lot of little touch safeties to being on the end rail and needing to power a long shot in with just the right stroke to float behind another ball for safe. It is very easy to go out of rhythm/stroke at one pocket.

ryushen21
02-05-2004, 03:56 AM
That shot Massey pulled was pretty crazy. I must have sat there with my jaw open for a solid minute after that shot.


As for the question at hand, It's a toss up for me between One Pocket and Straight Pool. The many facets of one pocket have been discussed and i understand them. It's like the pool equivalent of chess. And it's one of the few games that can take anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour to play one game.

I think that straight pool is a little tougher because of the fact that you can get very fatigued during the match. If you overexert yourself in the first several racks, you can lose your edge a bit in the later racks. it also requires a great deal of planning throughout the rack. And, if you are playing a good player, one missed shot can end up being a 20 or 30 point lead. Also, it is hard to find a good straight pool game these days, there is hardly anyone around my school that can play straight with me and i usually only average 10 or so balls on a good turn.

but that's just my 2 cents. i've never really played rotation. what exactly is it and how is it played?

nhp
02-05-2004, 05:44 AM
I'm surprised not many people mentioned 15-ball rotation. One-pocket is a close second. Think of it this way- countless players have run 8 and outs in one-pocket, and the world record for consecutive racks run in rotation is what- 3 (or 4) racks, held by Efren.

NH_Steve
02-05-2004, 07:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ryushen21:</font><hr>

I think that straight pool is a little tougher because of the fact that you can get very fatigued during the match. If you overexert yourself in the first several racks, you can lose your edge a bit in the later racks. it also requires a great deal of planning throughout the rack. And, if you are playing a good player, one missed shot can end up being a 20 or 30 point lead. Also, it is hard to find a good straight pool game these days, there is hardly anyone around my school that can play straight with me and i usually only average 10 or so balls on a good turn. <hr /></blockquote> Rarely is a One Pocket match just one rack either -- generally they are a race to 3 or more games. I had to chuckle when I read "you can get very fatigued during the match" -- how about in a One Pocket session that goes all night!! I'd wager those happen alot more often than the occasional all night Straight Pool session. Anyway, the length of a Straight Pool match compared to a One Pocket match doesn't really mean much, because for either game, you can easily shorten or lengthen the game easily -- by ball count for 14.1, and by number of games raced to in One Pocket. But the truth is, long One Pocket sessions are pretty standard.

Likewise I had to chuckle about the rarity of finding other Straight Pool players -- kinda like One Pocket in some locales /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Sigh, it's lonely at the top, huh /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

cheesemouse
02-05-2004, 07:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Pelican:</font><hr> OK, cheesemouse made a post about 9 ball and how it is tough. Some folks seem to think it's not the toughest (me included). SO, what is the toughest game played on a 9 foot six pocket table? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>


My other post about '9ball tough' wasn't meant to say that 9ball was the hardest of all games. Each game seems to have a flavor of its own and a following of its own. If the criteria were simply what is the most difficult 'game' to master? I would have to say One pocket because of all the moves that have to be learned. Most of these moves, it seems to me, do not require a great stroke but require the experience of having the moves used against you to great effect. In my experienc with playing one pocket, which is limited, the main knowledge I came away with is: 'I would have to devote nearly all of my playing time to this game in order to master it'...I think I fall into the main catagory of pool players that are not exposed enough to this game where it is worth our time to learn the fine points of playing it well....I mean how many of you regular posters here have a regular one pocket game you can look forward to? How many of you play in a one pocket league? How many of you have played in a one pocket tournament? Those that can answer yes to these three questions are lucky and also few and far between.


I think one pocket is a great game with it's combination of shot making and devastating moves, it truely is the chess game of pool. I wish I were in a situation where the game was played more often, but I'm not. I believe that puts me in the majority. In the last few years I've noticed one pocket is making a come back in popularity. The top nine ballers are having to pick up the game out of necessity. If you are 'out there' trying to make a living playing in tournament 9ball and they offer a side one pocket event you better learn the game so you have a chance at the extra money. This fact alone is changing the game of one pocket. If I'm not mistaken, some of the wide open 9ballers who have taken up the game of one pocket have also brought along this wide open 9ball attitude to the game of one pocket and have been successful playing a wide open style. Correct me if I am wrong about this.

My reference too: is your game 9ball tough was more directed towards that attitude of taking your game to its physical edge and just going with it, there-by over coming the odds with great offensive shot making. It is just my opinion that at the upper levels of 9ball those players that play close to the vest win matches but not tournaments. The toughness I was refering to is: can you trust your game enough to play at the edge, betting it all on vertually every shot?....it is my opinion that most of the time its the guy out on the physical limits of the game that wins most of the big 9ball tournaments...once again correct me if I'm wrong, after all I'm just a mouse living in the outback of the USA who enjoys living on the edge......and that is why 9ball is my favorite game, not the most difficult game. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Pelican
02-05-2004, 09:48 AM
Gotja now cheese. I misunderstood and took it that you were saying 9B was the toughest game to play.

In forums such as this where a comment is made and a respondent cannot inquire while the comment is being promulgated it can cause some confusion, misunderstanding, and remarks being taken out of context. I think a lot of times this is exactly what causes 'arguements' to get started and go on and on. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Later, Pel

Popcorn
02-05-2004, 10:06 AM
Quote
"Think of it this way- countless players have run 8 and outs in one-pocket, and the world record for consecutive racks run in rotation is what- 3 (or 4) racks, held by Efren."

8 and out ends the game, there is no need to run all 15 balls in one pocket. In rotation you need to get 61 points to win, not run the whole rack. This can be done with a run of as few as 5 balls toward the end of the rack or making the right balls during the game, ending it. To make a comparison as to difficulty of running an entire rack, I think it is more difficult running a 15 ball rack into one pocket then running a whole rack in rotation. I used to play a lot of pill pool and players often ran out the whole rack in rotation and these were not champions. Rotation is right up there as a tough game. It requires good shot making and position play. When a lot of balls are on the table you often have to make combinations and kiss's and so on, but once some balls are off the table it is like 9 ball except you may not need to run all the way out depending what balls you have made in the beginning to win.

It takes skill to run balls in rotation, but the game has a lot of luck in it, as to the opportunities you may get to pocket high number balls during of the game requiring you to need less balls to win. It is not a debate, all games on the pool table are challenging and have their own unique requirements. I like to play every game, including snooker and billiards and enjoy then all. But I think I have an objective idea what each game requires and that shapes my opinion as to what game seem to me to be the hardest to master. Others may feel different from their own experience..

02-05-2004, 10:39 AM

Popcorn
02-05-2004, 11:43 AM
You make some very strange statements. I know dozens of top player and have been around hundreds of top players many some of the best players in the world of every age. Almost without exception, they all play and LOVE one pocket. Your posts are bordering on the ridicules with most of your statements. If you want to be taken seriously, make a point of some kind rather then some kind of bitter derogatory remark about something you admittedly know nothing about. Why so hateful?

roscoe
02-05-2004, 12:01 PM
Fast Larry says:

I view Rotation as two things, a game to play or a drill.

The game sucks. It is one of the worst and most stupid games of all time. You can make 2/3írds of the balls and lose. The hardest ones to make are the first third and they reward you with the lowest score. Your opponent watches you make and run the first 2/3írd of the balls and miss, he runs the final third and wins. This is nuts. The only game more stupid than this is 9 ball, which is nothing but short rack rotation with 6 balls removed. It is even crazier, in this game you can make 90% of the balls, 1 through 8 and miss, the opponent makes one ball, a simple straight in shot, the 9 ball and wins. In 9 ball 90% of the balls do not count, they have no score, only one ball counts, that is nuts people. At the turn of the 20th century several world championships were lost by the best player making 2/3írds of the balls and losing playing rotation. They knew then this game had to be killed off, it was not a test of championship skill.

Full article at http://www.fastlarrypool.com/rotation.htm#ROT

Roscoe

Rod
02-05-2004, 12:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Please, somebody make me a copy ('zerox') of 'Winning One-Pocket' (seriously). I will pay you for it. Then I will take up one pocket, but not until I get this book. I hear it is the best. I taught myself to play chess that way - reading books. I want to good theoretical foundation.
<hr /></blockquote>

WW,

If your waiting on a copy to learn 1P then likely you will have a long wait. Besides most shots in there are for more experienced 1P players. Even then many shots they would pass on because of the difficulty and risk. The best way learn at any game is to play. Having a book is fine but you might want to look for one that deals more towards the basics, not advanced moves since you would lack not only the control but the knowledge to shoot them anyway. You build from the ground up not vise-versa.

Rod

eg8r
02-05-2004, 12:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Egg, comparing one pocket to nine ball is like comparing playing on a 7,000 yard course to playing putt-putt. <hr /></blockquote> If you take a look at what you quoted me, where did you see a comparison? I made mention of the previous post that if there are more runouts, then obviously the game is not harder.

If I was to follow your example of putt putt and include the logic of the member I had quoted...Would putt putt be harder than golf, if there are more hole-in-ones in putt putt? Obviously no. This is why I did not agree that his examples were proving 9b to be the toughest.

[ QUOTE ]
One pocket is a game for old men who don't want to work crossword puzzles on a Sunday afternoon. One pocket players have the poke stroke and usually can't play 9 ball. Heck, just ask Fast Larry One pocket is for players who can't cut it playing 9 ball. Except in Efren's case, he likes anything that will win him money LOL. He is a true professional by playing pool any which way he can.
<hr /></blockquote> I would be considered by most on this board as being quite young however you still give no reason to believe 1p would not be tougher than 9b. I will go along with your stereotype and say that 9b is for the younger crowd that has not learned how to think on their own. They need numbers on balls to show them what to do next, where to go next. 9b tells the young dumb player what to do, 1p leaves the old player no clues. The old guy thinks he way through the mess, the young guy gets a roadmap.

[ QUOTE ]
Please, somebody make me a copy ('zerox') of 'Winning One-Pocket' (seriously). I will pay you for it. Then I will take up one pocket, but not until I get this book. I hear it is the best. I taught myself to play chess that way - reading books. I want to good theoretical foundation.
<hr /></blockquote> This is a great paragraph, and shows that you know too little of the game to be critical of it or the skills required to play it well. You obviously do not play it regularly however you are critical of it and the skill needed to excel at it.

[ QUOTE ]
Heh, I know my opinion is slanted, but who cares. That's what Pelican asked for. You aren't going to change my mind in this instance, but it is fun listening. Maybe after I play some one-pocket, if ever <hr /></blockquote> I am not sure anyone is trying to change your mind, maybe just open it up some.

eg8r

bluewolf
02-05-2004, 02:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr>Egg, comparing one pocket to nine ball is like comparing playing on a 7,000 yard course to playing putt-putt. Power vs. finess. 9 ball, like golf requiring a big drive, requires a big break. 9 ball, more like golf, requires long shots.

One pocket is a game for old men who don't want to work crossword puzzles on a Sunday afternoon. One pocket players have the poke stroke and usually can't play 9 ball. Heck, just ask Fast Larry /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif One pocket is for players who can't cut it playing 9 ball. <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah just ask FL, why don't you. He does not like op but I have never heard him say 9b was the hardest game. In fact, you can read what he says about that on a previous post.

BW thinks WW is being silly. ww does not like op because he likes fast play. Then he says all these insulting things about op, 9b being a man's game to see who he can rile up...pleeeze....nobody who has been here very long could fall for such silliness. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Laura

NH_Steve
02-05-2004, 04:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> You make some very strange statements. I know dozens of top player and have been around hundreds of top players many some of the best players in the world of every age. Almost without exception, they all play and LOVE one pocket. Your posts are bordering on the ridicules with most of your statements. If you want to be taken seriously, make a point of some kind rather then some kind of bitter derogatory remark about something you admittedly know nothing about. Why so hateful? <hr /></blockquote>I'm with you, Popcorn -- the one thing just about every big critic of One Pocket that I have stumbled on has in common is -- guess what -- they never learned how to play the game! I have never heard that sentiment from anyone who actually took time to learn how to play. Kinda like they don't so much mean they hate the game, they just hate the idea of trying to learn it /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regarding it as a game for old guys -- I've got news for him, there are now tons of very good young One Pocket players out there, pretty much depending on whether its played enough in their area to have a chance to get good at it. Presuming a young man (or women!) doesn't know how to play One Pocket these days could cost a lot of money /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

On the other hand, there are not too many great old man 9-ball players. I had a chuckle at the Derby City Classic this year at all the young men who would eagerly challenge me at 9-ball for whatever I wanted, without knowing a thing about how well I shoot -- simply based on the fact I look a bit older and was carrying a cue stick. These guys have obviously figured out that's a pretty safe bet for them -- any stranger over 50 vs the typical good 9-ball shortstop. 9-ball is decidedly a young man's game. My money's on the shortstop /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

PS Didn't Shannon Daulton win his first One Pocket title at 19 years old? Old men -- right /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Popcorn
02-05-2004, 05:31 PM
Years ago I played Don Watson (9 ball) without knowing who he was. As a pretty young guy, I was in a state of shock to see an old guy run out like that. One pocket has changed quite a bit in one respect, a lot more everyday players play it now. Used to be, if a guy came in and asked if anybody wanted to play some one pocket, you could be sure he could really play or he would not be asking. Not so much now, there are a lot of average players playing it and you can play someone sight-UN-seen, even if you are not great at the game yourself, you don't have to necessarily lose.

Pelican
02-05-2004, 05:44 PM
QUOTE NH_Steve:
" I had a chuckle at the Derby City Classic this year at all the young men who would eagerly challenge me at 9-ball for whatever I wanted, without knowing a thing about how well I shoot -- simply based on the fact I look a bit older and was carrying a cue stick. These guys have obviously figured out that's a pretty safe bet for them -- any stranger over 50 vs the typical good 9-ball shortstop"

How bout this Steve, let 'em alternate games , a 9B set followed by a 1P set. Back and forth, back and forth, betting the same on each set. I think in the long run the old 1P player will be cash ahead. With 25-30 hours of play he will probably win a few 9B sets whereas the fast shooter 9B player will probably do good to win one or two 1P sets, especially as time wears on.

Bob_Jewett
02-05-2004, 06:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Please, somebody make me a copy ('zerox') of 'Winning One-Pocket' (seriously). I will pay you for it. -- whitewolf <hr /></blockquote>

No need to copy it, since it's for sale quite frequetly on eBay. If you can't find it there, I have an extra copy I'll let go for the average of the last five eBay sales. Besides, photocopying it would be illegal.

#### leonard
02-05-2004, 07:07 PM
Rod, come on Guys 14.1 is the hardest game to play. I have never played a one pocket player that didn't at one time just slam at the balls and hope one ball went in his pocket. I played Johnny Vivas, one pocket all day and all he did was slam balls hoping for a luck shot in his pocket.

I played Joe Canton for one solid year and all I did was rack balls. If he wasn't my next door neighbor, I would have been broke just paying the time.

Babe Cranfield ran 6 straight games of 100 playing Ron Caiello. Play Steve Mizerak in his prime and you would never shoot. Nineball/one pocket your always at the table. Sit down for a day or two playing straight pool and you can't overcome it. Straight pool players can pass a drug test. I doubt that a nineball or one pocket player can. ####

Popcorn
02-05-2004, 08:37 PM
Mizerak may be the best all around player in the last 30 years. His straight pool game goes without question. His 9 ball game is very strong as is his one pocket. I personally think one pocket may be his best game. If he had not gained a couple hundred pounds he would have amassed an unbeatable record, it is a shame to see him now. I have practiced with him numerous times and he is so free with advice, every time you play is like a lesson.

ryushen21
02-05-2004, 09:34 PM
Ya know, i didn't even think about some of that stuff when i wrote that post. But you are right. I have seen some guys at local pool hall go at one pocket for hours on end. And that is just nuts to me.

As far as playing straight pool with my team guys, there are one or two that i can actually get a good game with. But i won't race to anything less that 100. And every once in a while i can get someone to go to 150 with me. And those games are the best. But yeah, it does get lonely.

However, one of my friends decided that he wanted to give straight pool a try. So we went ahead and played and i won 150-43. It was a good game for me. I hit my high run of 27 during that game. But where are all the straight pool players these days?

Steve Lipsky
02-05-2004, 10:59 PM
Each game has its strong points. I think this is fairly indisputable.

While I have tried to like one-pocket, I just can't. I want somebody to slice my aorta open while I'm watching it. The 4 or 5 times I have played it, I was trying to determine the best method of slicing it myself. I also tried to stop breathing, but after turning purple I figured there are better things to induce suicide over.

I do appreciate the game. It's not easy and there are a ton of nuances inherent in it; probably more so than in any other game. It's just not what I am after when I play pool. I am looking to pocket balls. If anyone can produce for me a better feeling than running a lot of balls playing straight pool, I would be surprised.

I also like the feeling of getting punished for my mistakes in straight pool, and in that regard, 9-ball doesn't even come close. I would say that the average mistake in 9-ball doesn't even directly cost you a whole game. In one-pocket it's even less (to my admittedly inexperienced eyes).

One pocket probably ranks highest in terms of the least forgiving of the games. Both straight pool and 9-ball you can get away with some pretty bad shots, as long as you still make your ball. But when you can only shoot at one of the pockets, your position has to always be accurate. Straight pool only begins to get unforgiving towards the end of the rack; earlier than that, you might miss position on your intended next ball, and have six others to shoot instead. It's my favorite game, but I must concede this point.

Playing safe is most difficult in straight pool. You have to hide 15 balls from 6 pockets. 9-ball is a joke in this regard. And with the advent of the jump cue, the powers that be have effectively eliminated whatever skill it did take to play a defensive shot in this game.

In terms of creativity, one-pocket must lead the pack again, followed closely by straight pool. For every instance in 9-ball where a truly creative shot is played, there are 5 racks where everyone on the rail knows exactly what will happen next.

So, while I will always love 14.1 the most, each of the other games is worthy of a healthy dose of respect.

And none of this, of course, changes the fact that whenever I am within 500 feet of a one-pocket match, my aorta is in serious, serious jeopardy.

- Steve

ONE POCKET GHOST
02-06-2004, 01:49 AM
I don't think it's possible to designate one game as the toughest - They are all extremely tough in their own ways....However, i do believe that there's no question that One Pocket and 3 Cushion Billiards are far and away the most difficult games to learn and to master....I also believe that One Pocket and Straight Pool are the two best pocket billiard games ever invented &gt; If what you love to do is pocket balls, then Straight Pool is a pure, and perfectly constructed game for doing just that --- And One Pocket is the decathlon of pool games, offering a complex challenge to the mental and physical skills of a strong player, that no other game can &gt; Physicaly, you have to be capable of making every variation of straight in shot, You have to be a great banker and kicker, have mastery of every type of stroke and extreme english application, have advanced knowledge of 'exotic' kiss, carom and throw shots, and have pinpoint control of whitey - And mentally, you have to have ice water running in your veins and the razor sharp, calculating intelligence of world class chess and texas hold-em poker players....And the other great and constantly fascinating thing about One Pocket, is the endless situational variations that you encounter - You can play this game for thirty years, and when you go and play the next day, you might see a ball placement situation that you've never seen before....(I know Grady agrees with me on all of this - That's why the venue of his Legends of One Pocket Tournament last September consisted of One Pocket and Straight Pool)

bluewolf
02-06-2004, 07:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Please, somebody make me a copy ('zerox') of 'Winning One-Pocket' (seriously). I will pay you for it. -- whitewolf <hr /></blockquote>

No need to copy it, since it's for sale quite frequetly on eBay. If you can't find it there, I have an extra copy I'll let go for the average of the last five eBay sales. Besides, photocopying it would be illegal. <hr /></blockquote>

I really do like op. I wish i had gotten that book before it got so expensive. It seems like you could get one for about 100, but i was new then and did not know what op was. Now that i want one, it is way out of my pricerange.

Laura

John in NH
02-06-2004, 09:46 AM
Whitewolf,

It's obvious by your post that you haven't had much experience playing one pocket, if you had you wouldn't be so quick to classify every one pocket player as over the hill.

I've seen quite a few good nine ball players become totally frustrated with one pocket simply because they are not willing to put in the time that it takes to learn the game just like you must put in the time to learn 9 ball. One pocket requires different elements of pool than 9 ball, cue ball control is the most important part of all with varying degrees of bank pool, 14-1, caroms, if you ever get a chance to see one pocket being played between two great players it is an awesome sight to see, well worth the price of admission.

9 Ball may be your game of choice but one pocket is the most difficult of all games to master, and that is a challenge that I enjoy.

Good luck in whatever game you decide to play it's your choice and have fun doing it, pool is a great game and it is the subtle differences that make it so great.

John

crawdaddio
02-06-2004, 10:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Pelican:</font><hr> OK, cheesemouse made a post about 9 ball and how it is tough. Some folks seem to think it's not the toughest (me included). SO, what is the toughest game played on a 9 foot six pocket table? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I realize you said pocket table, and someone else already said this, but 3 cushion on a heated verhoven has to be the TOUGHEST billiard/pool game I have ever attempted to play.
Let me just sat that I LOVE all pool and billiard games and play any of them every chance I get. Now others have mentioned enough of the valid points on 1p and straight pool, but to be able to consistently score and play safe in 3c takes skill and knowledge that I can only begin to comprehend. I believe that if one spent his entire life playing 3c every day he would still not know EVERY shot.
The possibilities are infinite. I love to hear them click!

P.S.I also understand the same could be said for the other pool games......3 cushion just SEEMS tougher to me, I don't know why.
Thanks for all the great reading,
David /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

ajrack
02-07-2004, 01:53 PM
ONE POCKET GHOST..
Your reasons for the difficulties in one pocket are quite accurate.
Jersey Red used to say "9 ball is a great game that begins with a lucky shot!"
Straight Pool requires the patience to sit in the chair and watch your opponent play pool for 20 minutes and then requires you to get up "COLD" and then you try to match him for 20 minutes. Joe Balsis used to say the most difficult shot on the table is the first one you have to shoot when you get there.
Also, don't forget Snooker. It is a long way down that 12' table with smaller balls and a nap on the cloth that looks like your lawn.

#### leonard
02-08-2004, 11:03 AM
Popcorn, I played in a tourney at Mike Ashes in the late 6os and the final two games were probably the best two final games I've seen. The first game Tom Jennings runs 90 on Miz, who goes 16 in the hole. Jennings runs to 120 or so but fails to get out. STeve puts together a 90 and 51 and wins 125-120.

In the final game Steve beats Alan Hopkins 125 to 7, before a pack house. The pressure could be felt in the air, while Steve got out in two shots.####

9ballbc
02-08-2004, 06:13 PM
IMO, the toughest game on a 9 foot table is ANY GAME with a superior player - regardless of the spot! I played Larry Neudecker (aka Baltimore Kid, aka Baltimore Red) some 9 ball and he gave me the last 3....I lost. He could have given me the last 5 and I still would have lost because he ran the show! I got to the table when he allowed me to, naturally, to perform a nice kick shot or other trick to get a good hit. He played like a machine. He spanked me in some 1-hole also, though I held my own for a while.

My point is that it really doesn't matter what game you play, the toughest part is getting in the driver's seat. Sure every game has it's differences in how you play and think throughout the game, which may make it seem like that particular game is tougher than another. But I have found that if one game seems harder than another then it's because I don't know enough about the game or I am not totally comfortable with playing that certain game. Given time, that particularly tough game will seem just as simple as "cut throat" (aka elimination). THanks, BC

bigbro6060
02-08-2004, 09:33 PM
Snooker is the toughest game by a friggin mile

9ballbc
02-09-2004, 04:40 AM
You are very correct about snooker being the toughest game. But only because it's played on a "snooker table", and usually 10 or 12 foot tables. Snooker on a standard 9 foot "pool table" would be much easier to play.


"If you think you're playing great, QUIT THINKING ABOUT IT!" - BC

Fred Agnir
02-09-2004, 07:36 AM
Now for my serious answer. IMO, the degree of "toughness" might be answered by how difficult it is to score a point or ball. That is, how many innings per ball does that game normally have? That number will end up including all the factions that make up the game including normal layouts, offense and defense.

In that respect, as far as all billiard games go, I'll go with one-pocket.

Fred

Popcorn
02-09-2004, 08:11 AM
Quote
"Snooker is the toughest game by a friggin mile."

As far as a game goes, or mind boggling strategies I would say it is not. It is a game played a more difficult table and in a sense that makes it harder to play, but not because of the intricacies of the game, but because of the equipment. I have played on English snooker tables in England and many had pockets almost as big as pool tables. In fact at the world championships in Sheffield, I was surprised at how large the pockets were. Using the logic that the table sets the standard for how hard a game is to play, then Golf would be the hardest game. If the table is set up properly for golf, it is almost impossible to pocked a ball that is anywhere but in the jaws and strategies prevent you in many cases from even trying. It also may have more strategy then snooker when it comes to playing the game. When snooker players play pool, particularly 9-ball, what they bring that give them an edge is a tremendous shot making ability. Beyond that, everything else would be fairly equal. I don't know any snooker players that are dominating one pocket, or straight pool, not that, that much straight pool is played to even be able to judge. All just my opinion and interesting to discuss.