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recoveryjones
02-11-2004, 01:10 PM
I recently read an article on Back hand english at the following link:
http://www.greatpool.com/technique.htm (scroll down)
I find this method works great on short shots and it also taught me how to compensate my aim (during my normal stroke) for sidings shots.

Does anyone know about Aim and Pivot English? Is it the same thing as backhand english? If so are there any websites that explain it or books/video info on it.I've heard its an aiming system that many of todays pros use and I'd like to learn it.If there are no websites on it or books/videos, could someone be kind enough to explain it in a clear concise understandable way. Much appreciated, RJ

rocky
02-11-2004, 01:54 PM
this is a great way to adjust for squirt or cue ball deflection if it is something that you are haveing problems with. A shaft that compesates for this already will cause you to miss this shot. And most players do this technique without even knowing it!

JohnnyP
02-11-2004, 03:36 PM
If you are applying left english, you know that the stick pushes the cueball off the aiming point to the right. How much depends on the cue, and the distance to the object ball.

To use the aim and pivot method, line up the shot as if you were NOT going to use any English. Then apply the desired amount of English by moving the back of the cue, pivoting at the bridge.

If you are lucky, the new aim point will automatically compensate for the applied English. The luck part depends on the amount of deflection in your shaft.

I don't use that method. I move the tip to apply the desired amount of spin, then change my aim point.

It's guesswork, based on previous experience with my cue.

Two other factors to consider are swerve and throw, which aim and pivot doesn't take into accoiunt.

If you hit it with low left, the stick will push the cueball to the right, and, depending on the stroke speed and distance to the target, the cueball will swerve back to the left. Sometimes these you can plan it so that these two effects cancel each other out.

I don't worry too much about throw, unless I'm hitting it softly, with a fairly full hit on the object ball.

recoveryjones
02-11-2004, 04:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JohnnyP:</font><hr> If you are applying left english, you know that the stick pushes the cueball off the aiming point to the right. How much depends on the cue, and the distance to the object ball.

To use the aim and pivot method, line up the shot as if you were NOT going to use any English. Then apply the desired amount of English by moving the back of the cue, pivoting at the bridge.

If you are lucky, the new aim point will automatically compensate for the applied English. The luck part depends on the amount of deflection in your shaft.

I don't use that method. I move the tip to apply the desired amount of spin, then change my aim point.

It's guesswork, based on previous experience with my cue.

Two other factors to consider are swerve and throw, which aim and pivot doesn't take into account.

If you hit it with low left, the stick will push the cueball to the right, and, depending on the stroke speed and distance to the target, the cueball will swerve back to the left. Sometimes these you can plan it so that these two effects cancel each other out.

I don't worry too much about throw, unless I'm hitting it softly, with a fairly full hit on the object ball. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Johnny for explaining this,much appreciated. I knew about backhand english several weeks ago by reading about it at this link: http://www.greatpool.com/technique.htm
I only use it occasionally for real close shots (cue ball and object ball seperated by 3' or less) and never on long shots.By using it , it has taught me how to aim using normal methods when applying sidings.

I kind of thought that backhand english and aim and pivot english might be one in the same ,however, wasn't 100% sure.Someone tried to explain it on another forum and their way of doing so left me confused as if they were two different methods.Are you a 1oo% sure they are the same?

I'm allways looking to improve so I just posted here to clarify the difference between the two. Thanks RJ

tateuts
02-11-2004, 04:53 PM
I only know one good player who uses it, and he is very good at it, but it takes a lot of practice to do it well. He also teaches it as his little gimmick for $100 - so, consider the source.

You can spot it if you see a player doing this. Right before they shoot there is a noticible shift in the butt of the cue on english shots.

What I don't like about it is this: you are marking on a certain line in your warm up strokes, then shifting your cue with no further warm up strokes and shooting - so there's a lot of lateral movement going on.

It's kind of an answer to a question nobody asked: "Like, why?".

Chris

PQQLK9
02-11-2004, 05:03 PM
Is this the same method that was sometimes refered to as "tuck and roll"?

JohnnyP
02-11-2004, 05:10 PM
Nope nope nope. BHE is different. Apply it by twisting your wrist in or out, just before the cue strikes the cueball.

Wayne Norcross is the local pro at Danny K's, and he says that it's more common back East.

Mike Sigel's cousin, also named Mike Sigel, plays there, and he uses it.

recoveryjones
02-11-2004, 07:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JohnnyP:</font><hr> Nope nope nope. BHE is different. Apply it by twisting your wrist in or out, just before the cue strikes the cueball.

Wayne Norcross is the local pro at Danny K's, and he says that it's more common back East.

Mike Sigel's cousin, also named Mike Sigel, plays there, and he uses it. <hr /></blockquote>

Your right Johnny, Back hand English and Aim and Pivot aren't the same and are totally different.Back hand english is a method for taking the compensation factor out for applying english while aim and pivot is a specific aiming system.I've been learning a little more about aim and pivot from some other forums and when I feel qualified enough, I'll share about it some time down the road.

Having said that, its not a twisting of the wrist thing like you mentioned above. I've heard of that as well and it's something different.WOW!!! what a game so many variables...LOL...when will one ever stop learning....most likely NEVER!!!

Fred Agnir
02-12-2004, 08:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr>
Does anyone know about Aim and Pivot English? Is it the same thing as backhand english? <hr /></blockquote>I invite you to do a search in Google Groups as it has been discussed quite a bit.

Backhand English and Aim-and-Pivot are of the same family of squirt compensation. The only difference between the two is that the Aim-and-Pivot method has the player pivoting about the stick's specific "pivot point." The pivot point is determined using the Aim-and-Pivot Test outlined in the FAQ:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/sports/billiards/faq/

For Backhand English as Mr. Hal Houle teaches it, you would aim the shot with centerball, and pivot the stick at your bridge to get your new aimline. Shoot normally through the new aimline. For many sticks, this should work adequately as the traditional shafts most likely have a "pivot point" near enough to the average bridge.

Note: for most of us that discuss these two techniques, you do *not* pivot at the last second. You would pivot after you've aimed centerball, and warm up stroke at that new aim point. No last second tucking. For the last minute swiping style, I've called that "dynamic backhand english." That's not what Hal Houle teaches, and that's not what the Aim-and-Pivot method spells out.

Fred

Fred Agnir
02-12-2004, 08:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr> I kind of thought that backhand english and aim and pivot english might be one in the same ,however, wasn't 100% sure.....Are you a 1oo% sure they are the same?<hr /></blockquote>They're not. And I'm more than 100% sure of that.

Fred &lt;~~~ but they're close

Fred Agnir
02-12-2004, 08:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr>
Your right Johnny, Back hand English and Aim and Pivot aren't the same and are totally different.<hr /></blockquote>
No, you've gotten yourself confused. They are very nearly the same.

[ QUOTE ]
Back hand english is a method for taking the compensation factor out for applying english while aim and pivot is a specific aiming system.<hr /></blockquote>

Both are meant to accomplish the same thing: compensate for squirt.

Fred

Bob_Jewett
02-12-2004, 08:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Note: for most of us that discuss these two techniques, you do *not* pivot at the last second. You would pivot after you've aimed centerball, and warm up stroke at that new aim point. No last second tucking. For the last minute swiping style, I've called that "dynamic backhand english."<hr /></blockquote>

Or as I like to call it, "aim and swoop." Some pretty good players use it, but I think it would be a horrible mistake for any beginner to take it up. I think it's a lot better to address the cue ball where you intend to hit it, and then stroke as straight as possible.

bigbro6060
02-13-2004, 03:12 AM
When i was first learning about English, i read everything i could on the subject and that included aim and pivot and almost went nanas

Now i'm fairly decent at using English, it really came down to just getting a feel for things

use the theories to get you a starting point, then start to program your 'Pool computer' to really get to know where to aim etc

recoveryjones
02-13-2004, 05:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr>
Your right Johnny, Back hand English and Aim and Pivot aren't the same and are totally different.<hr /></blockquote>
No, you've gotten yourself confused. They are very nearly the same.

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Back hand english is a method for taking the compensation factor out for applying english while aim and pivot is a specific aiming system.<hr /></blockquote>

Both are meant to accomplish the same thing: compensate for squirt.

Fred

<hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for all the great info Fred as yes I was confused after hearing different things from different folks.

dmgwalsh
02-13-2004, 05:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote recoveryjones:</font><hr>
Your right Johnny, Back hand English and Aim and Pivot aren't the same and are totally different.<hr /></blockquote>
No, you've gotten yourself confused. They are very nearly the same.

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Back hand english is a method for taking the compensation factor out for applying english while aim and pivot is a specific aiming system.<hr /></blockquote>

Both are meant to accomplish the same thing: compensate for squirt.

Fred

<hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for all the great info Fred as yes I was confused after hearing different things from different folks. <hr /></blockquote>
Check your pms.

recoveryjones
02-13-2004, 12:02 PM
What's pms.Pool Madness Syndrome?