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smoothstroke
02-12-2004, 10:50 AM
This came up in a one pocket game last night and no one was sure of the rule:
I had a ball DEEP in my pocket, I mean REAL deep, the other player took his turn, missed and I banked another ball at my pocket, it hit the rail, very close to the pocket, but never touched the ball in the pocket...the impact of the ball hitting the rail caused the ball to fall.
What is the ruling on that ball ?? does it stay down and I keep shooting or is it re spotted and the next player shoot?

Rod
02-12-2004, 11:02 AM
It falls under rule 3.31 and has to be spotted. bca general rules (http://www.bca-pool.com/play/)

Rod

PQQLK9
02-12-2004, 11:15 AM
But spotted in the position (in the jaws) from which it fell.
3.31 BALLS MOVING SPONTANEOUSLY
If a ball shifts, settles, turns or otherwise moves “by itself,” the ball shall remain in the position it assumed and play continues. A hanging ball that falls into a pocket “by itself” after being motionless for 5 seconds or longer shall be replaced as closely as possible to its position prior to falling, and play shall continue. If an object ball drops into a pocket “by itself” as a player shoots at it, so that the cue ball passes over the spot the ball had been on, unable to hit it, the cue ball and object ball are to be replaced to their positions prior to the stroke, and the player may shoot again. Any other object balls disturbed on the stroke are also to be replaced to their original positions before the shooter replays.

Rod
02-12-2004, 11:23 AM
Hi Nick,

Yes I know, that's why I posted the link to the rule. All pool players should have BIlliard Congress of America (http://www.bca-pool.com/start.shtml) in their favorites. It would solve a lot of questions and not just rules.

Rod

smoothstroke
02-12-2004, 11:24 AM
I understand the "by it self" rule, but does the fact that another ball was shoot and the vibration of that ball hitting the rail next to the ball in the pocket cancel the " by itself rule"??

PQQLK9
02-12-2004, 11:30 AM
don't think so...

Rod
02-12-2004, 11:33 AM
No it doesn't. The ball actually has to be hit to count. It can't rely on table vibration or any other known or unknown factors.

Rod

houstondan
02-12-2004, 04:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> It falls under rule 3.31 and has to be spotted. bca general rules (http://www.bca-pool.com/play/)

Rod <hr /></blockquote>


well, maybe yes, maybe no. try this:

"3.11 pocketed balls

a ball is considered pocketed if as a result of an otherwise legal shot, it drops off the bed of the table into the pocket and stays there." (bca 2003 ed.)

then it talks about ball return systems and pocket rebounds.

this wasn't really, "by itself" as it was a consequence of the in-progress shot.


dan

NH_Steve
02-12-2004, 06:46 PM
I'd definitely say the ball stays down and counts for the shooter, because it fell in as a result of a legal shot -- it did not fall in "by itself", it fell in as a result of the cushion getting enough of a legal bump from the missed bank that caused the ball to drop. Now if it dropped because the shooter bodily shook the table intentionally -- that would be different -- and against the rules and would get replaced. But a cliff-hanging ball that just needs the slightest wiggle from the banked ball, that would be legit in my book /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Actually, it doesn't really sound like a One Pocket question per se -- could be 8-ball (your ball) or 9-ball or any other non-call-shot game, right?

Most 'close' calls pretty much generally do go to the shooter -- as they should, IMO -- according to those new-fangled international rules that the BCA has adopted. This of course is an example.

Troy
02-12-2004, 07:37 PM
This is not necessarily a 1-Pocket rules question.
My opinion is that the ball fell as a result of a legal shot rather than actually "by itself" and therefore stays down.

Troy

Barbara
02-12-2004, 07:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote houstondan:</font><hr>
well, maybe yes, maybe no. try this:

"3.11 pocketed balls

a ball is considered pocketed if as a result of an otherwise legal shot, it drops off the bed of the table into the pocket and stays there." (bca 2003 ed.)

then it talks about ball return systems and pocket rebounds.

this wasn't really, "by itself" as it was a consequence of the in-progress shot.


dan <hr /></blockquote>&lt;~~~~dan's correct in his assessment of the situation.

Barbara

Bob_Jewett
02-12-2004, 08:42 PM
I think the current BCA rule about balls settling, or "moving by themselves" is broken. Here is a version I prefer from the 1988 pro rules:

Settling into Place

A ball may settle slightly after it appears to have stopped, possibly due to slight imperfections in the ball or the table. Unless this causes a ball to fall into a pocket, it is considered a normal hazard of play, and the ball will not be moved back. If a ball falls into a pocket as the result of such settling, it is replaced as close as possible to its original position. If a ball falls into a pocket during or just prior to a shot, and has an effect on the shot, the referee will restore the position and the shot will be replayed. Players are not penalized for shooting while a ball is settling.

I think the ball in the original post fell in because it settled, although the settling may have been precipitated by the ball hitting the cushion nearby. However, you have no way to be sure that it was the vibration from the cushion -- maybe it was the player getting up from the shot and nudging the table a little, perhaps unintentionally.

The rules say separately that a ball stopping on the brink has five seconds to drop or it is considered not pocketed.

houstondan
02-12-2004, 09:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> I think the current BCA rule about balls settling, or "moving by themselves" is broken. Here is a version I prefer from the 1988 pro rules:

Settling into Place

A ball may settle slightly after it appears to have stopped, possibly due to slight imperfections in the ball or the table. Unless this causes a ball to fall into a pocket, it is considered a normal hazard of play, and the ball will not be moved back. If a ball falls into a pocket as the result of such settling, it is replaced as close as possible to its original position. If a ball falls into a pocket during or just prior to a shot, and has an effect on the shot, the referee will restore the position and the shot will be replayed. Players are not penalized for shooting while a ball is settling.

I think the ball in the original post fell in because it settled, although the settling may have been precipitated by the ball hitting the cushion nearby. However, you have no way to be sure that it was the vibration from the cushion -- maybe it was the player getting up from the shot and nudging the table a little, perhaps unintentionally.

The rules say separately that a ball stopping on the brink has five seconds to drop or it is considered not pocketed. <hr /></blockquote>

bob, i think they picked up most, if not all, of what you are referring to in the complete version of the "spontaneously" rule"

3.31 BALLS MOVING SPONTANEOUSLY
If a ball shifts, settles, turns or otherwise moves “by itself,” the ball shall remain in the position it assumed and play continues. A hanging ball that falls into a pocket “by itself” after being motionless for 5 seconds or longer shall be replaced as closely as possible to its position prior to falling, and play shall continue. If an object ball drops into a pocket “by itself” as a player shoots at it, so that the cue ball passes over the spot the ball had been on, unable to hit it, the cue ball and object ball are to be replaced to their positions prior to the stroke, and the player may shoot again. Any other object balls disturbed on the stroke are also to be replaced to their original positions before the shooter replays."

i did not think it would fit since the traveling ball was not the c.b. and it did not pass over the spot occupied by the, now fallen, o.b.

it does have the critical language about "as a player shoots at it". really, i think the other rule better fits the case but it's real ripe for argument.

dan

Troy
02-12-2004, 11:39 PM
I stand corrected.

Rod
02-13-2004, 12:36 AM
Dan,

I think people take rules and expand them as they may choose. Were not in a political debate and we don't need all the disclaimers. The ball going in must be under it's own power and that didn't happen. Vibration, player bumping the table may have happened but it's not it's own power.

The longest it took for a ball to go in, for me, I was a ref during a match. Two players took two shots and the third time a hanging ball fell into the pocket. That time, the c/b hit within 2 or 3 inches. Call it whatever you want but it did not fall in under it's own power. At any rate the rule is in place. Possibly the time should be increased to 10 seconds, like golf. Well earthquakes do happen. LOL As a matter of fact Ronnie Allen played such a match and an earthquake took place at the end of the match. Strange, but it happened, as told by someone who wrote the story. The ball didn't get moved back but it didn't fall into a pocket. So where do you draw the line and how many disclaimers is needed? Who knows but it should be fairly simple.

Rod

Rod
02-13-2004, 12:58 AM
Bob,

Perhaps the old rule might be better. As I said in another post a line has to be drawn somewhere. These rules, past or present, the intent can be exploited if someone chooses. Some people find a way to be a lawer or politican. Were pool players and I think it was written in common text. If we abuse the rules, and there are several, then it just takes more text. Sad in a way it comes down to lengthy text and disclaimers but it seems it will be necessary. I just hope in years to come the average person can understand what is written.

~~~Rod, hopes he doesn't have to go back to school

NH_Steve
02-13-2004, 04:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> ... The ball going in must be under it's own power and that didn't happen. Vibration, player bumping the table may have happened but it's not it's own power.

The longest it took for a ball to go in, for me, I was a ref during a match. Two players took two shots and the third time a hanging ball fell into the pocket. That time, the c/b hit within 2 or 3 inches. Call it whatever you want but it did not fall in under it's own power...

Dan, no ball moves "under it's own power", on legal shots they move as a result of energy transfering from the cue stick to the cue ball, and on to the object balls, utilizing the medium of the legitimate table equipment (specifically the cushions and cloth). I see nothing illegal at all about using a firm stroke to drive the cue ball or an object ball into the rail hard enough so that the legitimate ball/cushion impact alone is sufficient to wiggle the cushion to cause a cliff-hanging ball to drop -- as a result of a legal shot!

...Who knows but it should be fairly simple.
Rod <hr /></blockquote>IMO, you have to favor the shooter in any situation where it isn't clearly an illegal shot; that is, you can't cheat the shooter out of their shot unless you are sure it was illegal. That is fair, because both players theoretically have equal opportunity to shoot -- even though it often doesn't seem that way /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif As in the following standard international rule:

http://www.wpa-pool.com/rules2.htm
2.10 SPLIT HITS

When the referee observes that the cue ball strikes a legal object ball and a non-legal object ball at approximately the same instant, and it cannot be determined which ball was hit first, the judgement will go in favor of the shooter.

They have another rule in this section (Instructions for Referees) that relates to the original question:

2.19 ILLEGALLY CAUSING BALL TO MOVE

Any player who, in the referee's judgement, intentionally causes a ball to move by any illegal means (pushing on bed cloth, bumping or slapping table, etc.) will lose the game and/or match by forfeit. No preliminary warning from the referee is required. (Referee's judgement and discretion under "Unsportsmanlike Conduct.")

How the hell is their anything illegal about driving an object ball or the cue ball hard into a cushion to wiggle a ball? Here's a 'what if' if you think the ball should be restored:

WEI diagram (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)
START(
%AH9D0%BJ4D0%CG4G7%DL7N1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%J K6M5%KJ5P7
%LJ5N2%PG4P0%UG4D7%VG5F8%WF0D6%XE7Z9%YF1Z7%ZG2C6%]W2H5%^H7G7
)END

What if two balls (the one and two) were frozen to the cushion, 'dead' as a doornail towards your pocket (let's stick with One Pocket /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ). You drive the three ball hard into the cushion near the two balls, but you do not actuall touch the 1 or 2 with the 3 ball, however the big bounce into the cushion disturbs the 1 and 2 so they no longer are dead! Why don't you guys all line up and tell me how far you would get explaining to your opponent that the rules state you are supposed to restore the 1 and 2 to their original 'dead' position? Good luck!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

pooltchr
02-13-2004, 06:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote NH_Steve:</font><hr> Dan, no ball moves "under it's own power", on legal shots they move as a result of energy transfering from the cue stick to the cue ball, and on to the object balls, utilizing the medium of the legitimate table equipment (specifically the cushions and cloth). I see nothing illegal at all about using a firm stroke to drive the cue ball or an object ball into the rail hard enough so that the legitimate ball/cushion impact alone is sufficient to wiggle the cushion to cause a cliff-hanging ball to drop -- as a result of a legal shot! <hr /></blockquote>

If I shoot the cue ball hard enough into the rail to make the object ball drop, but make contact with no other ball on the table, have I not just committed a ball-in-hand foul?
(Just thought I would throw another wrinkle into the thread.)

NH_Steve
02-13-2004, 07:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr>
If I shoot the cue ball hard enough into the rail to make the object ball drop, but make contact with no other ball on the table, have I not just committed a ball-in-hand foul?
(Just thought I would throw another wrinkle into the thread.) <hr /></blockquote>Oooh, that is a good one, because it adds the wrinkle of 'no contact to any object ball'. I'd say that turns it into a foul -- despite the fact the ball fell (and in One pocket that woould mean it stays down in your opponent's pocket, but would get spotted from your own pocket.

The rule that makes it a foul:

3.19 LEGAL SHOT

Unless otherwise stated in a specific game rule, a player must cause the cue ball to contact a legal object ball and then:

(a) Pocket a numbered ball, or;
(b) Cause the cue ball or any numbered ball to contact a cushion or any part of the rail. Failure to meet these requirements is a foul.

Note it's not contact a legal object ball "or", it's contact a legal object ball "and" ....

Either way, the diagram I showed, and the scenario the OP described, would be a legal shot, IMHO /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Steve - Detroit
02-13-2004, 07:54 AM
This IS getting interesting now. A new question now arises, where would the sunk object ball in pooltchr's scenario be spotted?

If one follows the logic that the ball fell as a RESULT of the stroke, it would be spotted as a ball made on a foul stroke and would be handled according the particular game's rules. This would fall in line with the thinking of Dan and NH-Steve.

If one follows the thinking of Rod, Bob and Nick, however, it would not be recognized as falling as a RESULT of the stroke and would be put back on the edge of the pocket, right?

NH_Steve
02-13-2004, 09:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve - Detroit:</font><hr> This IS getting interesting now. A new question now arises, where would the sunk object ball in pooltchr's scenario be spotted?

If one follows the logic that the ball fell as a RESULT of the stroke, it would be spotted as a ball made on a foul stroke and would be handled according the particular game's rules. This would fall in line with the thinking of Dan and NH-Steve.

If one follows the thinking of Rod, Bob and Nick, however, it would not be recognized as falling as a RESULT of the stroke and would be put back on the edge of the pocket, right?
<hr /></blockquote>Right -- but they're wrong on the initial call /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rod
02-13-2004, 11:54 AM
[quote Steve] IMO, you have to favor the shooter in any situation where it isn't clearly an illegal shot; that is, you can't cheat the shooter out of their shot unless you are sure it was illegal. <hr /></blockquote>



It is not illegal to have a ball (drop in the pocket), caused by legal means or by table vibration. The player didn't foul he simply did not hit the ball and does not get credit for (that) ball. It gets put back to original position but he does get credit for any legally pocketed balls on that stroke and does not lose his turn.

If your shooting at the ball and pocket in question and it falls in before contact the shot is restored as close as possible, it's still your shot.



[quote Steve]How the hell is their anything illegal about driving an object ball or the cue ball hard into a cushion to wiggle a ball? Here's a 'what if' if you think the ball should be restored:
<hr /></blockquote>


Who said it was illegal? That is perfectly fine and the balls stay in that position, (but one did not fall into a pocket), it just shifted slightly. That has happened many times and I've never ever hear of restoring the original position. Its just when a ball falls into a pocket as stated in rule 3.31.

Rod

Rod
02-13-2004, 12:07 PM
[quote Steve] If I shoot the cue ball hard enough into the rail to make the object ball drop, but make contact with no other ball on the table, have I not just committed a ball-in-hand foul?
(Just thought I would throw another wrinkle into the thread.)

<hr /></blockquote>

Sure you have, thats been the rule since shep was a pup. If your playing one pocket you spot one of your balls (on the foot spot) and put back the ball that fell in, to it's original position. However in one pocket you don't get ball in hand unless the c/b falls into a pocket. Then it is ball in hand behind the headstring.

Rod

pooltchr
02-13-2004, 01:50 PM
Rod,
Thanks for reminding me. I forgot that the subject was one pocket.

shoop1969
02-17-2004, 03:34 PM
You argue that the ball should fall and count for the shooter because it was the result of a legal shot.

What if its 8 ball, you have the 8 hanging, and I successfully bank my last ball in, and the vibes cause the 8 to fall.....do i lose???

rocky
02-17-2004, 04:26 PM
first off if the ball you called was the ball hanging in the corner than it wasnt a leagla shot if you didnt make contact.

SpiderMan
02-17-2004, 04:38 PM
1. A very possible scenario would be that the ball was
actually or nearly in contact with rail material within
the jaws of the pocket, and the rail collision that
occured nearby displaced the rail enough to nudge the ball
in. In that case, I'd say the ball should remain in
because the influence of the shot was more than just to
"shake the table". Exploiting the non-ideal mechanical
properties of the equipment during a legal shot happens
all the time.

2. Since the ball had remained in place for an entire
inning, including a missed shot by the opponent, plain
settling is an unlikely explanation. Particularly since
the ball dropping was coincident with the rail collision.
If the rail collision precipitated additional settling
only by vibration (shaking the playing surface), and
had no other influence, AND this could be proven, then
perhaps the ball should be replaced. But if #2 can't be
proven, then I'd go with #1 and award it to the shooter.

SpiderMan

NH_Steve
02-17-2004, 08:11 PM
To be perfectly honest? I know mercifully little about current 8-ball rules /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rod
02-17-2004, 08:49 PM
I'm not sure why it's such a hard concept for someone to understand. The 8 of course would be spotted back to it's original position. If it was 9 ball and the 9 just falls in, or any other ball, when someone shoots at another ball it also gets spotted to it's original position.

I can see it now, Efren and archer are playing a hill-hill championship match. Efren hangs a nine on the break. Archer shoots makes a legal hit on the one ball 6 feet away but fails to pocket the ball, then the nine drops. He throws up his cue in a victory celebration. Scott Smith says ----------------------------------- Archer is ticked, but I made a legal hit so the 9 should count. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha is Scott's reply. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Pick any poool game it doesn't matter, you have to actually hit the ball or it doesn't count.

Rod