View Full Version : BCA League nightmare/ What do you think? (long)
02-13-2004, 06:04 PM
Let me start with telling you I was subbing along with my son Spike to qualify for Vegas. My wife had already been playing on a team. We were two weeks into the league already and Spike and I would go to the ph and look to sub on the teams short players. This is common and subs don't pay fees other than sanction and pump our own quarters.
A team asked us to play for them the rest of the league after them having played for two weeks already. We agreed and showed up the next week. Well, the nightmare began. We showed up and was informed that the team captain had told the operator that I was captain and the rest of the team didn't show. They were done. The x-captain had issues with his teammates not paying and wanting transportation and drinks to boot.
The operator told me that if I would take the team all fees paid besides sanction fees would go to me and he'd find some subs for us that night and regulars if possible. I agreed for the sake of Spike to gain him experience with playing with a team.
That night three guys asked me to become regulars and they'd show up every week, unless the usual emergencies come up. I agreed and took the team captain position. After 6 weeks one of the guys doesn't show and calls me 10 minutes before leagues and asked me if I would let him go play on another team. He assummed they were a better team. He also asked his friends, my other two teammates would go with him. Well, they declined and he was gone. I paid for the sub for that night.
The next week the other guy lost his mind and through his cell across the ph because the two mates couldn't get along. Next his brother finds me and told me the guy cashed his check and left town and wouldn't be playing. Stuck again. By this time, I told the other last guy Joe he could leave too if he wanted but he reassured me he would stay all the way. He said he made a commitment and he'll honor it. I was impressed.
Now, needing players Heide, came over to help out. Her team was full and had a few others that needed qualifying so, no damage done.
So, comes the end of the league time. Our team Me, Heide, Spike and Joe. I paid for the sub for 13 weeks. Also, paid when Joe didn't have money for one week. We get the payoff money that night. BTW, we finished 6th place. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
This was the first time for me being captain and as far as the payoff goes. I took the direction of the league operator on how to do this fairly. Everyone knows you don't win anything and you'd be lucky to break even. It's about qualifying and that's all.
After discussing this with my wife and son we decided to by a trophy out of our pockets (not league money) for Joes devotion. I had the team name on it with the letters MVP. We wanted to give joe something to show our appreciation.
The formula for the payout I'd gotten from the operator was. Total payout ( -sanction fees ) devided by total games played, multiplied by the number of games played by each player. It looked like this. $320. - saction fees = $290. recieved. 18 total weeks/ 5 games per player/week = 90. 90 x 5 players = 450 total games played. 450 devide by $290. = .64 each game.
Joe paid for 14 weeks and this comes out to $44.80 . I pay joe and he's got issues. He said I should devide the payout into 5 players and give him $58. I took him up to the operator and showed him the total weeks he paid and the numbers were right. I paid for a sub for 13 weeks on top of my family's money too.
Bottom line Joe was mad. He left his trophy and walked off stomping his feet. Then, the team captain on Heide' team came over and gave her like $15.50 for the weeks she played with them. The operator told me that it was up to the team captains who gets paid for people that leave the teams. They forfiet their money if they leave.
Now, just then the jerk that left me high and dry without a player for 13 weeks wants to get paid for the time he played. Now, I'm pissed. He said well, she got paid. I said here's your money. I also pointed out that Heide didn't leave her captain short a player like he stuck me. The operator agreed. Told me I shouldn't have paid him either.
Joe leaving this trophy sent me into a rage. This was not only a slap in the face but he disrespected my family. I couldn't help myself and smashed tha thing into smitherines.
Later, after paying Spike and Heide and myself I came out with $50. extra. I didn't know and told the operator. The operator knowing what's been going on the whole time told me that the players got what they had comming. He said that extra moneys was for my paying for the sub, paperwork and agravation.
Now, there's a team tournament coming up this Sun. and even if were 2 and out we get like $190. My question is, should I let Joe play? This is not easy for me and I really didn't think I could get through this mess of league crap being that I'm still recovering. BTW, that $50. came from the other team that left me high and dry.
Sorry so long. Ethics, play a key role in my life.
02-13-2004, 06:14 PM
I think it's great to see the real Chris back at last.....randyg
02-13-2004, 06:46 PM
This is BCA?
No wonder BCA owners want to sell to a profit group.
One BCA operator here had his league fall apart, for similar reasons of players not showing up, and one team took him to small claims court.
Let him play, have your team showup, collect your winnings, split it up and have a beer or two and decide if league play is for you.
I spent way too much of my life readiong that post, even though you warned us. So let me just say you wasted way too much of your life dealing with that stupid league. Pool is an individual sport. It is meant to be played between individuals. It can be played by gentlemen or bums, women or children. But leagues make it a kindergarden sandbox. Dump the leagues, live your life as an individual. Your son can get experience playing without a stupid league. He is already more mature than the average league player I am sure.
Did I ever mention what I think of leagues.
Pool is meant to be an individual sport on full size (10') equipment. 9' tables are bad enough. Bar boxes are the death of the game. I only have room for an 8' table in my house unfortunately, but you won't catch me in a league. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Tough choice Chris. If you can field a team with 3 players (Heide, Spike & you), I'd go for it. If you absolutely must have him to field a team it's a tough choice after what he put you through.
By the way, I completely understand what you mean by "still recovering".
What did you get yourself into? LOL Maybe he has had a cool down period and you also. I don't know what to tell you, your the one that has to go through this stuff. Do what you feel in your heart and let the chips fall. Good luck, but it's better to have this problem than not being here, which could have happened. Get out of those leagues unless you can play with your friends. Even then it can be shakey.
02-13-2004, 08:23 PM
Rather unfortunate for Joe. What he doesn't realize is that he just lost what would most likely become a good friend or friends. When I had my league team, we were presented with five plaques. One for each main player and one for the sub. I had to use a second sub for several weeks. The entire team pitched in, like you all did, for an extra plaque. I can happilly say, that my buddy was thrilled that we thought of him too. He didnt expect to get one.
I might suggest to Joe, that he can recoup a few more dollars back. Put the entire scenario on the table for him and let him decide. He may have been wrong about how much money he should have received, but he did honor his word and stuck it out for the teams sake. This in my opinion should afford him a second chance.
If he changes his mind about the trophy, tell him he has to by his own the second time around. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
02-13-2004, 08:27 PM
I don't know how old you are, but you have to have learned by now to not get involved in all this stuff. Personally, I would not play on a league, but that is me. As far as all that happened to you, why are you surprised, people are jerks in general and the more you intertwine your life with them the more problems you will have. You don't have to be a hermit like me, but think twice before saying yes, when you want to say no. I read a book years ago called, "How to say no, and not feel guilty about it". You know, I think it gave me a way of looking at things and people that has made my life very pleasant without a lot of the unnecessary problems most people have. As far as the guy Joe, Sure tell him about it, he is a jerk, so what, you don't have to take him home with you, so what do you care. I know this is kind of off the subject, but a lot of this crap is not worth your time and with the problems you have had in your life, you don't need this junk in your life. Go to the pool room and enjoy playing with your son or your friends, play in a tournament, but don't commit yourself to stuff, I think you will be happier. I am nobody to tell someone how to live their life, but I know what makes me happy and I fell lucky. As big as the world is, the world you actually live in on a day to day basis is very small. Keep it tidy and you will be much happier. I sound like Dr. Phil.
02-13-2004, 10:08 PM
bottom-line, i probably agree with popcorn on the virtues of not getting too involved. i have refused several times to be cap't of a team for these kinds of reasons.
having said that, it' your call on who get's to play on the team. as i understand it, you can cut anyone loose any time and not explain it to anybody. cut your stress.
02-14-2004, 12:07 AM
I had a very similar TEAM situation happen to me.
Bottom line.. are you going to Vegas? and if so.. let me know when.. I am planning on being there this year too.. I've got a tournament in Sacramento to promote.
$5K added One Pocket and $10K added 9 ball.. IT's going to be fun... May is a very good time of year.. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
02-14-2004, 03:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Joe paid for 14 weeks and this comes out to $44.80 . I pay joe and he's got issues. <hr /></blockquote>
He got what he deserves and seems he's got an immaturity problem!
[ QUOTE ]
then the jerk that left me high and dry without a player for 13 weeks wants to get paid for the time he played. <hr /></blockquote>
You gotta be kidding-dont let the door hit him in the a$$!
[ QUOTE ]
He said that extra moneys was for my paying for the sub, paperwork and agravation.
I played a BCA vegas team up at the Amsterdam(awhile ago)-Tony (Robles) was captain-we had a total of six on the team-well, one of our teammates shows up only twice-after weeks go by, we're locked for 2nd place-the guy calls me up and wants to come back on-I told him "fuhgeddaboudit"-no way" Look at you now-you piece of $$$$!"
He only wanted to comeback cause he knew we were doing good-needless to say,we took 2nd and Steve (Lipskys) team took first!Tap!Tap!Tap!
I applaud team players ,because, I think it is one of the toughest ways in playing pool-everyone depends on eachother-immense pressure and you must be a reliable and dependable person!If they want to act immature,selfish and disrespectful, tell'em "stay home"
Carol~no one needs such nonsense!
02-14-2004, 04:07 AM
I think it all comes down to one thing, that being, what are you willing to do to give your son this experience of competing on a team? You mention your son in the first sentence and I was wondering what he thinks of the whole situation?
02-14-2004, 04:56 AM
I stay away from `bad` places & `bad` people.Cheers
vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif <font color="red"> </font color>
02-14-2004, 05:01 AM
Although I don't play BCA, I do play APA.
I find the whole experience of team play, depends largely on the players you have on your team.
In APA, a team plays 5 matches each week, however, they can have up to 8 players on the team, which, of course, means everyone can not play each week.
I have been on teams which had problems getting 5 players each week and it was terrible. APA does not have substitutes.
I am currently on a team, where all 8 players are there almost every week and if someone can't make it, they call the captain ahead of time and let him know. It is a great team experience.
The only thing you can do, is be a little more selective of who you get on your team.
02-14-2004, 05:43 AM
Carol, You AND Robles on a BCA team and you only came in 2nd?
But therein is the problem with the BCA, a couple teams load up with the pros and local best players and the rest of the teams really have no chance. All they end up doing is donating their money to pay for someone else to go to Vegas, or win the money.
During the season teams play with a handicap, then in the playoffs the handicap is dropped and it just straight up race to 13. 1st team to get 13 wins - wins.
Most people can't beat Robles, or the other top guns, with a handicap. What chance do they have playing them straight up?
So, BCA is fun, and a good experience, in that you get to play a lot of the better players, but if your team is not really loaded with the heavy hitters you really have no chance to come in the money.
I'm sorry you had to go through that old friend. Now you've seen first hand why I will never captain another team again. I'm lucky to play on a team with 6 close friends. We enjoy each others company and look forward to Wednesday nights.
Chris, if you want to play BCA and go to Vegas that's cool. But don't captain. Get on a team and play.
Tell Spike and K-Mom I miss 'em. Talk to ya later.
02-14-2004, 07:09 AM
Joe is a member of your team and should be allowed to play in the team tournament.
His hissy fit of stomping off isn't any worse than your hissy fit of flying into a rage and destroying his trophy. It wasn't his intent to disrespect your family; he was surprised by a situation he wasn't expecting and didn't handle it very well.
He was a good teammate for the entire time, and he stuck with the team through thick and thin. He probably felt that he was an equal partner in the team and deserved an equal share, especially after sticking with the team after the others abandoned it. Not wholly a wrong position. I think it was very thoughtful of you to get Joe a special trophy, but apparently he preferred cash.
There are different ways to divvy up the money - one of them is the way you did it and I wouldn't have a problem with that. Another is to divide the money equally between players, although you'd get the fifth player's winnings because you paid for the fifth player through the season.
Screw the bastards that left you in the lurch early on. They earned and deserve nothing.
Remember, these are just my opinions and doesn't mean I think anything you did was wrong. Well, except maybe that rage thing. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Joe was a good guy the whole season and it sounds like he felt disrespected when he wasn't paid as much as he thought he had coming. Not that he was disrespected but maybe he felt that way for a while and then got over it.
Sometimes my emotions take over my thinking and I say or do stuff that I don't like, wish I hadn't said, and wish I hadn't done....like smashing the trophy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I'm thinking that if Joe acted on his principles the whole season but then had one emotional outburst then that should be forgiven and, as much as possible, forgotten. Hell, on that occasion he might have been upset about something else coming in and then just needed one little thing to push him over the top.
I think you are a bigger man than to let a little hard feelings get in the way of doing the right thing. Besides....it sounds like Joe earned a shot at some of this money based on his being there for the whole season.
02-14-2004, 08:05 AM
[ QUOTE ]
then in the playoffs the handicap is dropped
It isnt dropped-if Tony had to play a "B" player,he'd spot them I think 8 or 9 on the wire in a race to 11!It was unbelievable-and I don't even wanna say who was on Steve's team /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
02-14-2004, 08:06 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The only thing you can do, is be a little more selective of who you get on your team.
02-14-2004, 10:24 AM
Chris...Real sorry you had such bums to baby-sit, especially that miserable action by Joe. Y'all were exceptional to do what you did with the trophy, that nature of his is simply putrid. I'd frankly write him off from playing on any future events, but maybe not at the expense of losing the guaranteed payout of $190. I'd deduct my trophy costs outta those winnings though...well maybe you should leave it alone now that I think about it. If I could find anybody else at all to fill his place, I'd tell him "Kiss me where the Lord split me." sid
02-14-2004, 11:13 AM
I don't know why, exactly, but the people I respect and admire most in this world are the kind who find a way to forgive others and continue forward unphased. I guess I am impressed by wisdom and goodness, not the predictible bickering and cynicism that accompanies these situations.
Just look at what you've been through. In the greater scheme of things, this is less than nothing.
02-14-2004, 11:40 AM
I captained several teams way back in the beginning, some were miserable experiences and some made me new friends. The players who excited me the most were the ones I least likely thought would, and I was fortunate to have had teams with such solidity that my bigger problem was who was going to get to play, not who I could wrangle outta the subs. BUT then there were those less than happy times with "new faces" on latter teams, all promising they'd be there no matter what, and I will never captain again. Like Chris' smashing the trophy to pieces, I too found some of my darkside comming out during some of these bad times, and I learned some real lessons of life from it, sincerely. I became a better person in some ways, so I was possibly wrong when I said that I'd run Joe off from the final event with no chance of mending. Had to do over again...I'd done many things differenly in several of my previous dealings with trouble players. What I'd suggest maybe is to ask Joe to sit and talk over a beer or two and totally explain my feelings over the entire sequence of events, including the toils of dealing with the other guys who totally screwed off on me, and pleasantly exhibit to Joe the actual atmosphere within Chris' family's admiration for the guy. It could go one of two ways, either he'd really understand or maybe he'll be a butthead knowing your human weakness of being a nice guy. Regardless, you will have made the closure, and to me, that's where it makes the most difference, for ME. Whether Joe listens or not really only matters to how you feel about your own self, and letting it go by calmly explaining it, will do you more good than by burring up and acting like he did. If his choice is to remain mad, then let him. Your choice is to not to let it bother you once all of the words have been presented to the guy...sid
02-14-2004, 12:45 PM
When my brother was 16 and I was 18, his girlfriend's ex- boyfriend, who was half drunk, came over to our family's house while she was there to raise a stink. This guy was no physical match for my brother or I. He started off screaming insults at my brother, who listened to it and just nodded his head. Then the ex demanded to talk to the girlfriend alone. My brother complied, and let them talk on our living room couch.
After all this, I had had enough. I was furious and I went out to grab the guy and throw him out of the house, and maybe worse. Bob stopped me and said "just let me handle it. He's in enough pain already.".
Once the ex-boyfriend and his grilfriend were done talking, Bob went out and talked to the boy for a good 30 minutes himself. The boy left calmly and it was all over.
Now it's 30 years later. My brother married her, had six kids, and worked his way to financial success. They have a lot of friends and very loyal employees, each of whom have seen this enormously wise side of my brother.
I learned more from that one lesson than just about any other.
02-14-2004, 01:04 PM
Sounds like that girl found a winner of a lifelong partner, any wonder it stuck through the years!? Good story Chris, I call these "kung fu" flashbacks, from the Kieth Carradine series, and I've wisely adopted that I can be a better person when I listen to that little voice. My guess is that your brother has some great natured kids..sid
02-15-2004, 11:31 PM
Always good to hear from you Randy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I guess your right. I am back. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
C.C.~~needs memory lessons on how I used to play. help RANDY.lol
02-16-2004, 01:08 AM
Thank you all for the honest replys.
These BCA operators fill their halls with Scotch doubles teams, small tourney tours and small team events. They make on the tables but mainly in liquor sales. One sponsors a teams in Vegas every yr.
I played league pool at 17 out of a bar in Chicago and we made money. We went to WI. to play every yr. That's where I seen little Pam Bell. I think she was like 11. LOL I stopped playing league till about 5 yrs ago. I played a bar league and didn't like it at all so, I got out. It seemed that all they wanted to do was dispute every rule. I began again only with the BCA to qualify for State and Vegas. I sold 2 State packages two yrs in a row. One for $60. and the other for $40. Qualifying tourneys, you know? I agree with real pool on a 9 ft. 10 is asking too much. LOL It's your short game (7) or your long (9). /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I know you know. God bless you too. Yep, must have atleast 4 members to have a chance to win. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Good advice from a good friend is priceless. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
This was his second chance. However, he did come to me before the tourney today and apologize. He said he was wrong and if I wanted him to play he would. He left it up to me. After talking to the league operator and my boss, I had no choice. He put in the time and showed up.
I told him it was up to him if he wanted to play and informed him what the league operator said. Although he apologized, I don't take dissing my family lightly and will hold a to the death grudge, I let him play. BTW, Heide and Spike forgave him. I however am Italian. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
I'm so glad you replied. I'm 49 and yes, I can say no. With words in front of it too. LOL Bekieve me if it wasn't for my family, I'd long say know and just sub to qualify. Matter of fact I'd just pay the extra for Vegas.
Jerks seem to follow this sport and I know how to separate the two easily. I did this team thing not just for family reasons but because my boss helped me out when I was in need. Your advice is excellent and yes, Dr. Phil would be proud. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Thanks buddy.
I wanted to but was stepped on in a diplomatic way and it wasn't worth the reprocussions (sp?), if you know what I mean. Not physically but for one day, I can deal with it. Thanks
Maybe and yes. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Please let me play with you and Tony. I'm begging....LOL Give my deepest regards to him and thanks for the card signing. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
My son likes everyone and everyone I can't stand too. However, even he was disapointed in Joe but forgave him. He doesn't get involved with stuff like that. He just wants to shoot. I learned a great deal from him and how he looks at things so simple. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Good question.
Who you kidding? You've been everywhere and know everyone. Your one of the best operatives I have yet to induct in my spy ring. Well, you have to work hard to beat Agent 99 but, your right up there buddy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I was thrown into this situation for personal reasons only. I can pick a crack team, no doubt but this is just for qualifying thing. It's not about playing in a team event in Vegas but I'm afraid I'm sucked into one for the kid. Atleast for State. I'd rather play at Jackpot Juction Casino. 10K added. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I know what your saying and I'm not old. Just for that your getting another Cass family video. LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Joe had 14 weeks in, I had 18 and paid for another 14 and Heide had something else. There's no way I would divey up equal portions. I bought the trophy out of my pocket. Joe was allowed to play and we split 5 ways today. Joe is a whiner. He also, asks every minute. Am I up? Who do I play next? Enters his own scores and many times on the wrong person. I have to go find him when he's up. Heck, I even had to pay a week for him and he told me I didn't. I thought I handled it rather lightly. Normally I'd smack him up the side of his head with a Meucci. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Luv ya.. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Yes he did earn the right and I did let him play. Thanked him and told him he shot well. The problem with Joe is, he isn't the sharpest knife in the draw. I showed him the numbers twice and made me feel like I was trying to cheat him.
Your talking about adults. LOL
Thank you all very much. I tried talking calmly to Joe that night. He actually left before I could show him everyones numbers and explained it to him calmly. I didn't want Joe to get the wrong impression at all. He refused me. It wasn't till his co-worker, the jerk that quit me and whined about getting money from me till I just paid him his $19. just to get rid of this idiot. Then, I say the trophy sitting there and asked Heide what happened to Joe. That's when I saw red. Now, it's over and done. I was also sick for 2 days after that.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr>Kato,
I know what your saying and I'm not old. Just for that your getting another Cass family video. LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
C.C. <hr /></blockquote>
Really, another video just for calling you "old". Shoot, I should have a freakin' library of videos from you by now. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
02-16-2004, 08:27 AM
I have played in BCA andVNEA leagues for about 12 yrs.I have had mostly good experiences.The leagues are only as good as the operators who run them.Every summer i threaten to quit the laegues,but always go back I play only in masters so there are no problems with masters playing in open etc.If you do not play in leagues here you can not play in any league sponsered events or tourneys,they hold quite a few.Also you can not play on a team in BCA in Vegas,and i believe you can not play singles or team in VNEA in Vegas.I go for both and love it.Just my 2cents almer
02-16-2004, 09:11 AM
Sorry I couldn't offer you any advice. There aren't any BCA leagues in my area, so I'm not sure how the league works for qualifying. But from being the captain of my bar team for too many years, I hear ya about all the hassles and problem people.
And from listening to some other horror stories about leagues, I'm pretty sure I don't want to get involved if one starts up in this area.
Glad things worked out for you.
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