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View Full Version : 8-ball question resolved by BCA - I think.



jjinfla
02-16-2004, 02:33 PM
The following was sent to Betty Harris at BCA.

Under BCA rules, when playing 8-ball, once a player establishes either solids or stripes, and then comes to the table and starts shooting the wrong selection what is the ruling?

For example: player A breaks makes a ball on the break and then shoots a solid making solids his choice then misses his shot on the next solid. Player B comes to the table and misses. Player A then comes to the table and for whatever reason, instead of shooting a solid he shoots a stripe, Player B is in a fog and doesn't realize the foul, Player A then pockets another stripe. Player B, not being the smartest player is starting to realize something is wrong but does not call a foul. Player A then makes another stripe at which time Player B jumps up and says you selected solids and you just shot the wrong ball that's a foul. Player A says you didn't call a foul on my last two shots so now I have stripes and there is no foul.

What is the ruling? And where can I find it in my BCA rule book?

Jake

This is her answer:

Hi Jake,
The rule you are looking for is rule 2.26.
If a player goes to the table and shoots the wrong group, the opponent must call a foul right then, before he shoots the second ball in, or he loses his right to protest and no foul has occurred. If no foul has occurred, the player must continue to shoot that group for the rest of the game...in essence, they have switched groups.
Thanks,
Betty Harris

So, if I am playing 8-ball and my opponent breaks and runs 5 balls before missing leaving his two remaining balls in front of pockets and I come to the table and see my opponent has his back to the table taking a drink of "water" I can shoot the two remaing solids in and then shoot in the 8 for the win. And if he asks, "what I am doing" I can just reply, "sorry old boy, according to rule 2.26 you didn't call the foul when I made the first solid so when I shot in the second solid I effectively switched groups. so when I made the 8-ball I won the game.

Why are you coming at me with your cue stick raised above your head?

Jake

Barbara
02-16-2004, 02:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr>
So, if I am playing 8-ball and my opponent breaks and runs 5 balls before missing leaving his two remaining balls in front of pockets and I come to the table and see my opponent has his back to the table taking a drink of "water" I can shoot the two remaing solids in and then shoot in the 8 for the win. And if he asks, "what I am doing" I can just reply, "sorry old boy, according to rule 2.26 you didn't call the foul when I made the first solid so when I shot in the second solid I effectively switched groups. so when I made the 8-ball I won the game.

Why are you coming at me with your cue stick raised above your head?

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

I wouldn't recommend that approach unless you're a rather large person and/or can defend yourself in the fight that will be happening.

Barbara

sandgnat
02-16-2004, 05:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> So, if I am playing 8-ball and my opponent breaks and runs 5 balls before missing leaving his two remaining balls in front of pockets and I come to the table and see my opponent has his back to the table taking a drink of "water" I can shoot the two remaing solids in and then shoot in the 8 for the win. And if he asks, "what I am doing" I can just reply, "sorry old boy, according to rule 2.26 you didn't call the foul when I made the first solid so when I shot in the second solid I effectively switched groups. so when I made the 8-ball I won the game.

Why are you coming at me with your cue stick raised above your head?

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Beautifully done! Co-workers were checking to see if I was okay after reading this post. Sarcastic wit at its absolute finest!! Kudos.

the sandgnat continues to giggle every time he rereads it.

Qtec
02-16-2004, 07:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I come to the table and see my opponent has his back to the table taking a drink of "water" I can shoot the two remaing solids in and then shoot in the 8 for the win. <hr /></blockquote>


Cant happen.


8ball is a call shot game.

If you pocket a ball and dont call it, you lose your turn.
If you then continue to play and pocket another ball, it is certainly a foul.


Qtec

Frank_Glenn
02-16-2004, 07:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I come to the table and see my opponent has his back to the table taking a drink of "water" I can shoot the two remaing solids in and then shoot in the 8 for the win. <hr /></blockquote>


Cant happen.


8ball is a call shot game.

If you pocket a ball and dont call it, you lose your turn.
If you then continue to play and pocket another ball, it is certainly a foul.


Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

Not APA 8 ball, in fact doesn't APA stand for any pocket any time?

SPetty
02-16-2004, 08:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>8ball is a call shot game.
If you pocket a ball and dont call it, you lose your turn.
<hr /></blockquote>BCA rule 4.2 CALL SHOT
In Call Shot, obvious balls and pockets do not have to be indicated.

qSHAFT
02-16-2004, 09:43 PM
Would potting the opponent's ball be considered an obvious shot?

Steve - Detroit
02-17-2004, 07:07 AM
If the seated player was not paying attention and didnít call a foul when the shooter sank a wrong ball, why would he have noticed that the ball was or wasnít called?

The point is that the rule as written says that if a foul was not called, then no foul was deemed to have occurred. It appears that once the shooter took his next shot, the switching of the groups is done.

pooltchr
02-17-2004, 07:13 AM
So it would appear that the most important rule is an unwritten rule. Keep your mind on the game, even when you aren't at the table.

Steve - Detroit
02-17-2004, 09:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> So it would appear that the most important rule is an unwritten rule. Keep your mind on the game, even when you aren't at the table. <hr /></blockquote>

Or choose opponents with a little higher standard of ethics. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

houstondan
02-17-2004, 10:17 AM
well, maybe if we looked at it another way, it might help: what we're talking about is not a rule...it's a ruling; an opinion. it's very much like the fact that the supreme court does not issue laws...it issues rulings - opinions. it has the weight of law because it says what the law "means".

personally, i've never been even a little fond of the suit-changing opinion and i could think of a half-dozen better ways to handle it but this is what the bca has decided, based upon the way they have written the rules so it is what it is.

if someone tried to use it in a match, tourney or whatever, i'd just go along, accept it as my penalty for not paying attention and proceed to watch the sukka like a hawk from then on. i know a few rules myownself.

there is one concept in law that hasn't made the transition to bca rulings; sometimes it's referred to as the "reasonable man" concept and the point is that the exact application of the wording of the law shall not be construed to create a "silly" or patently unjust result. you find that discussed in a lot of supreme court cases. usually when they're going for "legislative intent". better known as "what in the hell were those fools thinking when they wrote this garbage???"

all that being said, it's well settled that, if you're playing bca rules, the bca has ruled on this question.

dan

Wally_in_Cincy
02-17-2004, 11:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote houstondan:</font><hr>
...there is one concept in law that hasn't made the transition to bca rulings; sometimes it's referred to as the "reasonable man" concept...<hr /></blockquote>

I only took one law class but I recall "reasonable and proper" were two of the most commonly used words.

Wally~~reasonable and proper and wonders why the BCA deems a rules commitee "unnecessary"

Qtec
02-17-2004, 01:39 PM
Thank you.

Q

Cueless Joey
02-17-2004, 02:28 PM
What if I made all balls on the break exceopt one stripe, one solid and the 8-ball, I call the stripe to the side pocket but pocket it on the corner pocket, and while doing that I caromed the solid ball and pocketed it?
Now what?????
The incoming player cannot win, can he? He has no group.
Neither do I.

Wally_in_Cincy
02-17-2004, 02:32 PM
I believe in that case he would have the "black" group

Barbara
02-17-2004, 02:56 PM
Actually Wally, since neither player has established a group and there are no more balls on the table to establish a group with, the 8-ball is off limits to both players.

Re-rack and play over would be the call.

Good one CJ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Barbara

jjinfla
02-17-2004, 03:01 PM
Houston Dan,

I believe the reasoning for this ruling by the BCA, and both Betty Harris and John Lewis from the BCA agree on it, is that since a foul was not called when the first wrong ball was made then when the second wrong ball was made no foul can be called and the balls are switched. Seems to me that all the ruling does is reward the person who made the error in the first place. And it does punish the other player for not paying attention. (People pay attention in League Play?)

But using that logic in 9-ball would they rule the same way. If a player makes the 3 and 4 balls and then it is noticed that the 2 ball is still on the table would they rule that since no foul was called when the 3 ball was made then no foul can now be called? And the player now just shoots at the 2 without a foul being called?

Anyway, since there are so many variations to the rules in 8-ball it really doesn't matter what I or the BCA believe; all that matters is what the TD chooses to say the rules are. Unless you are playing in a BCA League, which I don't, anymore.

Jake

Barbara
02-17-2004, 03:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr>
But using that logic in 9-ball would they rule the same way. If a player makes the 3 and 4 balls and then it is noticed that the 2 ball is still on the table would they rule that since no foul was called when the 3 ball was made then no foul can now be called? And the player now just shoots at the 2 without a foul being called?

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Jake,

Remember that in 9-ball the player must hit the lowest numbered ball on the table, so in your instance, the sitting player can still call foul after the hit on the 4 ball.

Barbara

houstondan
02-17-2004, 05:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr>
But using that logic in 9-ball would they rule the same way. If a player makes the 3 and 4 balls and then it is noticed that the 2 ball is still on the table would they rule that since no foul was called when the 3 ball was made then no foul can now be called? And the player now just shoots at the 2 without a foul being called?

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Jake,

Remember that in 9-ball the player must hit the lowest numbered ball on the table, so in your instance, the sitting player can still call foul after the hit on the 4 ball.

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

unless you consider that, since failing to hit the 2 as the lowest ball on the table was not called then it must not be a foul which means that the 2 must not be the lowest ball on the table which means that the numbering system has changed, at which point rod serling enters the room and calls for a brief word from our sponsor...do do do do.

dan

Barbara
02-17-2004, 05:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote houstondan:</font><hr>
unless you consider that, since failing to hit the 2 as the lowest ball on the table was not called then it must not be a foul which means that the 2 must not be the lowest ball on the table which means that the numbering system has changed, at which point rod serling enters the room and calls for a brief word from our sponsor...do do do do.

dan <hr /></blockquote>

Nice try dan, but I don't think so...

Barbara /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

jjinfla
02-18-2004, 06:18 AM
Barbara,

Have you been paying attention?
Are you a blonde?

In 8 ball if you have stripes then when you hit a solid first it is a foul. But not according to the BCA if it is the second time you commit that foul in a row. Then mysterious things happen and instead of you being punished for your error they reward you by letting you keep shooting.

So if that is good for 8-ball why is it not good for 9-ball?
In the above example when the 3 was shot first with the 2 still on the table that was a foul. But since it wasn't called by the opponent then it wasn't a foul. So then when the 4 was shot was that a foul since the first foul was not called? Not if you follow the same logic in 9 ball as they do in 8 ball. The player made two fouls in a row so evidently he must be rewarded. We can't punish him, it might hurt his gentle ego.

With rules like this it's no wonder pool is dying.

And the BCA put a 5 year moratorium on changing any of its rules so don't look for any changes soon. They must all be devotees of forest Gump.

Jake

pooltchr
02-18-2004, 06:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> the same logic <hr /></blockquote>

Logic??????????? I thought we were talking about pool rules! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fred Agnir
02-18-2004, 07:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Barbara,

Have you been paying attention?
Are you a blonde?<hr /></blockquote>
I'm not sure what being a blonde has anything to do with it, but she is a BCA referee.

Both situations are tough calls. If it were me, I'd call the 9-ball situation a foul, even if it was the second time it was done. But, I suppose the violator would only be on "one foul" since only the second one was seen.

Fred &lt;~~~ but it ain't me

Barbara
02-18-2004, 11:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr>
Are you a blonde?

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Well Jake, I used to be a lot blonder when I was a kid and have the pics to prove it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But whatever, 8-ball and 9-ball are two different games with two different premises. In 9-ball you must contact the lowest numbered ball on the table first and this precedes whether a foul wasn't called in the previous shot.

Ask Betty about this one. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know.

Barbara~~~will hint to the shooter when this situation might be happening.

RedHell
02-21-2004, 12:50 PM
Jake,

I think you fail to understand why the 8-ball rule exist. Imagine that player A has stripes and player B solid. Player B comes to the table and by distraction elects to play on the stripes. Player A notice the fould but doesn't call it, he wait for either player B to miss or pocket the last stripe and then call the foul. If the rule wasn't there, he could take ball in hand and shoot the 8.

By having this rule it stops players to take advantage of the opponents distraction and forces them to call the foul when it is first made.

I understand that switching balls while your opponent is not looking is abusing the rule, but all player are responsible for watching their game and making calls.

Rules have their limitation and can't always cover all aspect of abuse. In this case, I believe it covers the most obvious circumstances of abuse.

Just my 2 cents !

jjinfla
02-21-2004, 03:04 PM
Barbara,

Just kidding. When I was much younger, in another life, back around 1970 and going to school with RCA near West Palm Beach Fl, they actually accused me of using peroxide. Just the good old sun. Now what's left is all grey. And since my wife is blonde and an esquire I am partial to blondes. And this month's Playboy sure does have some lovlies in it. I wonder if they play pool?

But when does the switch actually take place?
When the cue ball touches the 2nd ball? Or do you have to make two wrong balls? and be shooting at the 3rd? Or do you have to make contact with the 3rd ball?

And does it have to be announced? Like the two foul rule?

What would happen if a player shoots at the wrong ball twice in a row and then misses the next ball and the other player who was engaged in conversation with the lovely blonde comes to the table and makes one of what he thought were his balls and didn't know about the switch?

I wonder if Seinfeld plays pool? I am sure that George can thoroughly, positively and satisfactorily explain this. Or maybe Kramer. I can just see Kramer now, Oh no, Jerry you don't have stripes anymore. When you there busy talking to that lovely blonde you didn't help me and remind me that I was wrong in shooting at two stripes. And I made them so I now have stripes. But Kramer I made the first three stripes. It don't work that way Jerry. Maybe God is punishing you for those evil thoughts you had in your mind while talking to that chick. You have to pay attention Jerry. Fade to black with Jerry trying to hit Kramer with the cue.

Do you get the idea that I am not taking this very seriously and am just doing it to pass the time until my lovely blonde wife calls me for supper. (dinner for you elete out there).

And I have been called on shooting the wrong ball in 8-ball after making two at the local bar and gave them the table. And I am sure that if I do it again I will still give them the table and forget about this rule. somehow, I don't think this bunch would go for it anyway.

Jake