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Tom_In_Cincy
02-23-2004, 09:15 PM
From the horse's mouth

I just got this from Tony, and I have to admit, I am all for protecting the equipment and the game.

[ QUOTE ]
Position Paper – Jump Cues

In light of our recent change in policy discontinuing use of Jump Cues, I would like to elaborate on some of the reasons behind this decision:

First and foremost, despite assurances to the contrary by manufacturers, the proliferation of jump cues not only alters the tradition behind the game, but also without question affects the cloth and the overall playing condition of the table.

Despite numerous attempts by self-proclaimed billiard experts to use golf as a comparison, golf is simply not an appropriate analogy. The playing surface in golf is not one that consists of a flat or regular substance throughout.

Having lived part time for 5 years in Monterey one of the most spectacular and historic golf Mecca’s of our time, I have had the opportunity to discuss this with numerous golf industry experts. It is a matter of fact that golf courses that have spectacular changes in elevation, surface, length of rough etc. are well prized for their difficulty as well as their drama and beauty. Currently the golf industry in general is struggling with improvements in technology that allow the average player to hit balls as straight and distant as Tiger Woods who regularly spends numerous hours correcting and perfecting mechanics tendencies in order to preserve the history and integrity of the golf record books as well as the mystery and right of passage required to attain his skill level.

I find it surprising that prominent members of the billiard inteligencia, might not consider snooker as a corroborating reference. They certainly have simplified the matter by outlawing jump shots and masse's. While swerve is allowed, any shot that could possibly result in a foul stroke is regulated against, including being allowed a free shot away from a frozen ball. It is not surprising to me that snooker is frequently played in front of large crowds for 1st place money as large as 300,000 pounds, while billiards and pool languish in obscurity. The great games as we knew them are currently reduced to sideshows such as trick shot competitions and glorified tit’s and ass reviews. The perhaps unintended result is the great players of our age being forced to travel the countryside, like aging gunslingers or displaced samurai known in feudal Japan as Ronin

I will certainly give the industry credit for lack of business sense in this case for supporting continued rules aberrations that relieve players from the need to develop skills one might acquire playing three cushion, carom, and snooker thus further reducing the need to continue to support these games financially. Fortunately, the rise of the playing contingents from billiard playing countries emerging on the pocket billiard scene may stem the tide as their skill in safety and escape from same, given today’s rules, increase their opportunity to dominate most fields.

Personally, I suppose it might have been the path of least resistance to simply have pursued snooker some 35 years ago. But that was then and this is now. Fortunately, the USPPA and Tony Annigoni are not beholden to any billiard industry entity other than our own, and will not be influenced by patrimony now or in the future.

My challenge to debate all sanctimonious self proclaimed billiard experts remains open. Perhaps the BCA Trade Show would be the proper forum. Heaven forbid anyone would have to justify their position in public rather than hidden behind the cloak of a computer screen a la The Wizard of Oz........Of course we could always have the manufacturers start making a table that isn't a 2 to 1 playing surface ratio, or one with sand as part of the composition so we could employ real pitching wedges as opposed to the surrogates in use now. I am sure that would go along well with the recent trend toward selling tables in home sauna outlets.

Thank the universe that Billiard Digest is not the only " journalistic outlet" and I use the term loosely, not as loosely as the BCA specs for tables however............

When conditions exist that would have Ewa Mataya enter the Hall of Fame prior to Jose Parica, perhaps the greatest cueist of this or any age, the voice of reason must be heard. While no one would doubt the numerous contributions Ewa has made to the Industry, the differential in playing skill must be taken into account. If any thing, the Hall of Fame should not in my opinion be a popularity contest.

But don't fret, I won't pick on the current billiard fraternity anymore, I am too busy making sure that everyone has a good reason to play billiards instead of just talking about it.

In Closing, I would like to hazard that I highly doubt we would be enjoying the artistry of Efren Reyes kicking a ball three rails, clipping the edge of the object ball and re-snookering his opponent, had some patrimonious billiard manufacturer handed him a novelty cue at age 11, instead of walking him to a carom table to hone his skills


Regards,

Tony Annigoni

Managing Partner USPPA
Principal Two Cushion Club
Principal Couture Events / Couture Marketing


<hr /></blockquote>

Dagwood
02-23-2004, 09:40 PM
Interesting article Tom...sounds like Tony was rather worked up when he wrote that. I'd like to sit down and talk with Tony and see how he REALLY feels about this matter...lol.

Dags

tateuts
02-23-2004, 09:45 PM
I have thought it over. I have decided that jump cues are good and should be allowed on the golf course.

I think the Alien Wedge should be used in pool rooms. Now you can really hit those jumpers, baby. Even on the next table, by god!

Chris

Ps. Sick to death of this issue and inconsistent rules.

Ralph S.
02-23-2004, 09:57 PM
This is a very interesting post Tom. One that I am sure will spark great debate, as the use of jump cues often does. I am for protecting the equipment, and the integrity of the game. I am also a self-confessed jump cue user. I know some are going to say that you can't be on both sides of the fence at the same time.

The problem with jump cues, lies within the fact that many players at the lower levels do not know how to properly jump. The even bigger problem is that many of these same players do not know how to tell when their actual last resort is to use the jump cue. Also, I personally feel that if you are going to use a jump cue, you should first learn to jump with a regulation cue. The biggest problem of all, is the fact that many of these players are too damn lazy to learn a vital aspect of the game. The said aspect, being kicking.

I wonder how many people have a jump cue in their case. I also wonder how often they use it. I know that a very high percentage of the pros carry one. Realistically speaking, the USPPA and what ever other organizations side with them, will never get jump cues completely out of the game.

I rarely use my jc anymore, although I do carry it in my case. I found my self using it when I really didnt need to. What happened as a result, was that I rediscovered that I still have a kicking an banking aspect to my game. I just needed to practice it a little more, rely less on the jump cue, and have faith in my abilities.

JPB
02-23-2004, 10:05 PM
I agree players should play 3 cushion. That would be great.

Lets look to another possible problem that Annigoni overlooks. Were/are jump cues a problem in straight pool? Or one pocket? The problem is that a short rack game like 9 ball became a "championship" test. And if we played 9 ball as it was designed, with 2 foul ball in hand instead of texas express 1 foul it might not be a problem. Pushout 9 ball would be a pretty interesting test now, or should at least be experimented with. Mr. Annigoni goes on about golf, but he gets a lot wrong. The thing that ties into the 9 ball discussion is how big golf tournaments are played. They are not 3 hole matches. Big tournaments are 72 holes of stroke play, a much truer test. A few match play tournaments, but these have been ruined (like pool because of tv.) after the PGA championship went to stroke play and the match play tournaments are 18 hole matches except the finals. Go back to the days of a lot of 36 hole matches. That would be interesting. But at least golf is a real test. Texas express 9 ball breeds problems. So maybe tournament directors like Annigoni should try to promote some other games. Seems like it works at DCC.

Troy
02-23-2004, 10:30 PM
Tony has had a burr in his saddle about jump cues for quite a while. The Reno Sands very recently banned their use. It's no surprise the USPPA has also banned jump cues.

Troy

Popcorn
02-23-2004, 11:01 PM
It is pretty simple, as long as the game is played by rules that let someone get ball in hand by just missing and getting a lucky leave. Or rolling you up behind a ball, and getting ball in hand, the jump cue is an equalizer. I don't want to hear about kicking, trust me there is no equity between the two. The safety is much easier to play then the kick to get out of it, and even Efren will sell out most of the time once he has to kick. Pros getting ball in hand, stupid or what? Heres a good idea, two pro golfers are on the green, the first one misses his putt and the second one get to pick up his ball and mover it half the distance to the hole. People would think they were nuts, but pro pool players play by rules almost as stupid. He is being a hypocrite anyway. They play races and rules that only benefit the people putting on the tournament, not the integrity of the game, they don't care anything about the game, who are they kidding.

Cueless Joey
02-24-2004, 12:14 AM
Kinda odd.
I don't believe he banned jumping and masse.
Just the jump cue.
OK, can one use a Sledgehammer and jump with it while it's at full-length?
OK, how about a long 58 inch cue but the last 16-17 inches are light plastic?
Joey~Thinking of inventing a long jump cue~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Tom_In_Cincy
02-24-2004, 12:20 AM
Popcorn..
There wouldn't be a need for this discussion if 14.1, One Pocket or Banks were the game of choice for tournaments.

I vote for the 2 foul rule and call shot if 9 ball is continued to be the GAME of tournaments.

But, now it's 9 ball, quick, simple and full of LUCK. Either you accept all that accompanies this game or you do something to change it.

What are you going to do?

Here at Hard Times Billiards, Jump cues will be allowed in the OPEN and USPPA tournaments until the end of the year. THEN, no jump cues are to be allowed.

Tom_In_Cincy
02-24-2004, 12:23 AM
Try going to the USPPA web site.

There you will find Tony Annigoni's email and "800" number.

www.usppa.com (http://www.usppa.com)

RailbirdJAM
02-24-2004, 05:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr>Pros getting ball in hand, stupid or what? Heres a good idea, two pro golfers are on the green, the first one misses his putt and the second one get to pick up his ball and mover it half the distance to the hole.<hr /></blockquote>

At a recent tournament, I observed Jerry Slivka breaking the balls. He has a power break, so to speak, and when he raised his mighty arm and swung towards the cue-ball, the cue-ball bounced upward like a Mexican jumping bean and landed 5 feet away from the table. He was using a Sledgehammer, BTW.

A fellow railbird stated that this was the third time this had happened on this particular table. It was thought that this table must have had dents in the slate which caused this phenomenon of the jumping-bean cue-ball on break shots.

One fellow railbird felt when some inexperienced players attempt to jump a ball, whether it is with a jump cue or playing stick, they allow the tip of the cue to bang down on the table full force, causing permanent damage; thus, the tip should NEVER hit the felt when attempting a jump shot.

At a Joss Tour event at Classic Billiards in Rochester, New York, the manager had all of the tables refelted for the upcoming tournament. In the back room during practice time, I noticed a couple of players placing a piece of cloth on the table and laying the cue-ball on top of it before breaking. The manager did not require the pro players to break with this cloth.

IMHO, some players may unknowingly cause damage to a pool table when using a jump cue and/or break cue. It is not the jump cue and/or break cue that is the problem, but the person using it, and knowing how to use it properly.

Popcorn's analogy of the golfer picking up the ball and placing it half the distance to the hole is funny stuff. Hooker/Butler's Trump Marina 10-Ball Challenge in Atlantic City is the only tournament I have attended recently that used the two-shot/push-out rules, slightly modified, though.

It would be interesting to see the players of today compete in a tournament that utilized the two-shot/push-out rules of long ago, sans the jump cue. I wonder how much luck there would be in the game of 9-ball in this scenario. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

RailbirdJAM

Jay M
02-24-2004, 08:00 AM
To throw a bit of my own thoughts into this discussion...

I thought that jumps were the coolest thing ever when I learned how to do them. I stopped kicking completely except when I was nearly frozen. I could pocket ANYTHING that I could have shot in without an obstruction. I played with jumps until I knew them inside and out. Hours and hours and hours spent doing nothing except jumping. English, follow, draw and even masse out of a jump shot. A couple of years ago, we measured how far I had to be from an object ball to get over the whole ball, it was about 4 inches. We're talking about YEARS of practice to get here. Holly can attest to my jumping, she saw it come out a few times in practice and then during a scotch doubles tournament where we were partners. There are a few other people here that have seen it as well. Heck, in one Kennedy event I pushed after the break into a spot where I could jump to a cut shot, knowing that the other guy would give it back to me, then ran out the table from there.

I don't and WON'T use a jump cue. The fact that someone with a couple of hours practice can duplicate, and even outperform, my shots with a jump cue doesn't nullify the fact that I am proud of my ability in this area. Heck, it's probably the most notable feature in my game. I strongly dislike the attitude of letting someone, or something, else do everything for you that pervades society in general today. It manifests everywhere and is a direct result of the technological advances made over the last 60 years. I could go into a serious diatribe on this, but it all boils down to laziness. People in general seem to want things handed to them on a platter, making those of us that worked for our skills less apt to pass on the knowledge, leading to it's complete loss in a very short time. Players always wonder why the pros don't pass on their secrets. Part of it is to eliminate the possibility of competition, true... The other part is that when we show a "secret" to someone, they reply with "oh, why would I use that kick? I'd just use my jump cue from here" or something along those lines and the knowledge is lost.

As you can tell, I have nothing but disdain for the jump cue and other technological enhancements that have such dramatic effect on the game without a tradeoff in skill. I agree with things that have a minor effect, like new tips. The reason is that, in actuality, it takes MORE skill to use the new tips, not less. The Moori's that I use require a PERFECT hit to be able to control the cue, but the tradeoff is that the tip is more consistent than others. When you hit it properly, it does EXACTLY what you tell it to do.

Anyhow, this argument has been raging for years, and will continue to rage until jump cues have been banned or all of the older players that remember how much skill was required to jump have moved on. Remember, the equipment is a smoke screen argument, it's the skill that is the real issue.

Jay M

P.S. the dents in the table are caused by the ball itself. My breaking spot on the table I played on every day developed a dent that would cause the cue ball to jump at just the right angle with a flat stroke. I don't touch the table with my cue until more than 6 inches past the spot when I break.

Sid_Vicious
02-24-2004, 08:32 AM
"IMHO, some players may unknowingly cause damage to a pool table when using a jump cue and/or break cue. It is not the jump cue and/or break cue that is the problem, but the person using it, and knowing how to use it properly."

AMEN! sid

pooltchr
02-24-2004, 09:22 AM
I guess I am somewhat of a traditionalist (read "old-timer!) but personally, I think jumping balls should not be allowed at all. The main idea of the game is to roll the cue ball around to make contact with the object ball and make the shot. Jump shots are the easy way out, and too many people who don't know how to properly jump try it anyway. Damn, I just realized I actually agree with Earl on this one! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Cueless Joey
02-24-2004, 09:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> I guess I am somewhat of a traditionalist (read "old-timer!) but personally, I think jumping balls should not be allowed at all. The main idea of the game is to roll the cue ball around to make contact with the object ball and make the shot. Jump shots are the easy way out, and too many people who don't know how to properly jump try it anyway. Damn, I just realized I actually agree with Earl on this one! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif <hr /></blockquote>
It should be a foul imo.
After all, one is intentionally making the ball leap over a ball. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Jay M
02-24-2004, 09:53 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Damn, I just realized I actually agree with Earl on this one!<hr /></blockquote>

Kinda funny that you mention Earl...

We were talking about it while we were playing in a match. I had just jumped a ball with my playing cue. Earl HATES jump cues, but he was actually the first one (that I know of) to execute a jump shot during a professional tournament. He seems to be ok with people jumping using a playing cue.

Jay M

Paul_Mon
02-24-2004, 09:57 AM
I played 2 sets (9 ball)last Sunday and my opponent used his Jump Cue 4 times against me. Twice he pocketed a ball to continue shooting and twice he made legal contact to not give up BIH. I like this guy and it's not a personal attack against him but what he did took no talent. We then switched to a couple games of 1 pocket and I told him (1/2 kidding) that he wasn't allowed to use the jump cue. So what's my opinion of the current batch of jump cues? Ban them all. Wanna jump? Use any cue you got from 55" to 59" and no less than 16 oz.


Paul Mon~~~~~Opinions are like A$$holes, we all got one!

rocky
02-24-2004, 10:06 AM
When we workshows like the APA's or BCA's ect. we always have a demo table for people to try out new cues. It makes me crindge every time I see someone walking toward our table with a jump cue in there hand. I have seen a brand new table go from pristine to not even worth shooting on anymore in a matter of hours. IMHO anything that could "possibly" harm the playing surface of a table should not be allowed, reguardless if you know how to use one or not.

dooziexx
02-24-2004, 10:14 AM
I have a bunjee jumper but I rarely used it. Most times when, I need to jump, I use my full length break cue which does a good job.

Eric.
02-24-2004, 10:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> It is pretty simple, as long as the game is played by rules that let someone get ball in hand by just missing and getting a lucky leave. Or rolling you up behind a ball, and getting ball in hand, the jump cue is an equalizer. I don't want to hear about kicking, trust me there is no equity between the two. The safety is much easier to play then the kick to get out of it, and even Efren will sell out most of the time once he has to kick. <hr /></blockquote>

I'll throw in my 2 cents. When jump stumps first came out, I wasn't crazy about them. I use one now. All the time. I also use my kicking just about as much as I did before jump cues.

I agree that it does equalize some of the lucky rolls because for any better player, ball in hand on a short rack game is a huge penalty. Also, the jump cues forces you to play a better safe.

For example, this is NOT a good safe:

START(
%AU6W5%Bm4T8%CL4^6%DL7N1%Ef3O7%FK6P1%GK6N8%Hl6F2%I L7O4%JK6M5
%MM3^6%Po9J9%Wn3L4%Xc9T8
)END

If someone played to this, they shouldn't expect to get ball in hand and cry "b.s." if instead of kicking, your opponent was more aggressive and jumped the 1 into the corner.

This is a much better safe:

START(
%AU6W5%Bm4T8%CL4^6%DL7N1%Ef3O7%FK6P1%GK6N8%Hl6F2%I L7O4%JK6M5
%MM3^6%Pn0E7%Wp5J9%Xc9T8%Yp6E2%Zr8I2%[g1[2
)END

This makes kicking more difficult and all but eliminates the jump option.

If you're gonna get BIH, IMHO, you've got to earn it.


Eric

Popcorn
02-24-2004, 10:41 AM
You did not say why he had to use the jump cue. I would not happen to be after you played some cheap safe trying to get ball in hand (instead of running out), or missed and got lucky? You play some half assed safe, and the guy has to do a back flip trying to get out of it. Lets face it, you just want a big reward for nothing. You want to beat that guy with the jump cue every time, try running out and you will have nothing to worry about.

Qtec
02-24-2004, 10:41 AM
Popcorn, luck plays its part in many sports but it should even out in the long run.How do you eliminate luck?

Usually, your opponent can only get lucky if you give him the chance. If you give him a shot, anything can happen.
Kicking instead of jumping favours the better player, dont you think? With todays jump Qs, anybody can jump a ball. I see very few people jumping with their playing Q.

In golf, you play your shot and then I play mine. I always get my shot.
Not in 9ball. With a little luck and a lot of good play ,if a top player gets the break and keeps making balls on the break, you dont get to come to the table.
9ball is not like golf at all.
9ball is a pressure game. You cant make a mistake. When you are at the table, you are in control, what happens next depends on what you do.
The more simple the position, the more pressure.You have to run out or the other guy will.

The rules are the same for both players. You have just as much chance to win as the other guy.

Bad luck begins with a mistake at one point or another.


Q
[ ban the jump Qs]

Frank_Glenn
02-24-2004, 10:49 AM
I don't usually try to jump balls, but I played a guy a lot several years ago that just loved it. He could jump pretty well. This made me tighten up my safety play and learn to "lock" the cueball up on another ball. I agree with several posters that jumps in general are bad for the cloth and should be anned. YMMV

tateuts
02-24-2004, 11:23 AM
Realistically, how many games are won using a jump cue versus how many are lost when the guy bounces over everything, scratches, messes up the table, or hits the object ball he was trying to jump?

As far as I'm concerned, it's a non-issue. In the last year I can only remember two single 9 ball games where the jump shot lead to a runout against me (I rarely use jump shots). But I remember a lot of games where jump shots lead to me getting ball in hand and running out against my opponent.

If I'm playing a guy who jumps the cue ball a lot, I know what I have to do. I do not fear these players, they'll give me plenty of shots.

Chris

tateuts
02-24-2004, 11:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> For example, this is NOT a good safe:

START(
%AU6W5%Bm4T8%CL4^6%DL7N1%Ef3O7%FK6P1%GK6N8%Hl6F2%I L7O4%JK6M5
%MM3^6%Po9J9%Wn3L4%Xc9T8
)END

If someone played to this, they shouldn't expect to get ball in hand and cry "b.s." if instead of kicking, your opponent was more aggressive and jumped the 1 into the corner.

<hr /></blockquote>

Eric,

Of course I see your point. But actually, when you think about it, wouldn't you rather have your opponent try to make that one ball with a jump cue (maybe a 1 in 10) than kick this safe like this:

START(
%AU6W5%Bm4T8%CL4^6%DL7N1%Ef3O7%FK6P1%GK6N8%Hl6F2%I L7O4%JK6M5
%MM3^6%Po9J9%UV4Y3%VX5Z9%WT7G9%XU2V5%_Z4Z4%`_0V9%a o1K8%bC7T7
%cL0V4%dT9X3
)END

Much of the time, the jump shot is the worst percentage shot to play.

Chris

Popcorn
02-24-2004, 11:55 AM
Everything you say is true given enough time. The problem with pool tournaments are they are all almost sudden death, short anything can happen sets. The slightest bit of luck can determine the outcome. If I play a guy twenty hours it doesn't matter. If I drive a 1000 miles and pay a substantial entry fee to play a race to 9 by today's rules, who know what will happen. I played in a tournament in Germany a few years back that was race to 7 best of five sets. That is a long enough set for some evening out. Jump cue or no jump cue, the rules played by don't suit professional players, they are practically like bar room rules. I would find it hard to believe most people would not agree with me they need some rule and format changes to seriously call it a professional sport. Isn't there one tournament that was on TV where they in the end played one game to determine the winner, give me a break. We are all on the same page, we want to see the sport presented like a true professional sport.

Rod
02-24-2004, 12:21 PM
Well, I happen to agree with Tony for the most part. Jump cues put dings/cuts in the cloth and make little burn marks. New players have to practice this shot (danger) and even so called experienced players. Most of them aren't very good at pocketing a ball but they might get lucky. Most players that jump balls sell out anyway. The jump cue only come about because of BIH rules and cheap safetys. Blame that on TV if you will because of the time constraints.

I rarely use my jump cue so it never gets screwed togther unless it is absolutely necessary. I still might jump a ball or half ball to make a good hit with my playing cue. Jumping over the side of balls has been around since shep's grandaddy was a pup.

Rod

Eric.
02-24-2004, 12:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr>

Eric,

Of course I see your point. But actually, when you think about it, wouldn't you rather have your opponent try to make that one ball with a jump cue (maybe a 1 in 10) than kick this safe like this:

START(
%AU6W5%Bm4T8%CL4^6%DL7N1%Ef3O7%FK6P1%GK6N8%Hl6F2%I L7O4%JK6M5
%MM3^6%Po9J9%UV4Y3%VX5Z9%WT7G9%XU2V5%_Z4Z4%`_0V9%a o1K8%bC7T7
%cL0V4%dT9X3
)END

Much of the time, the jump shot is the worst percentage shot to play.

Chris <hr /></blockquote>

Truthfully Chris,

My example isn't the best. I was too lazy to position the rest of the rack.

Just to take your point further, I would still play the jump shot. The 1 ball isn't too difficult to make, if I missed, I might get a safe too i.e. 1 ball banks up table and CB 2 rails behind the stack. In my poor example, I would definately go for the jump because if I missed, it's still not a sell out with that cluster of balls around the 9.

The point I was trying to make before is that jump cues may actually raise the level of play. IMO, it would force people to play better safes, knowing that just putting a ball between the CB and OB isn't good enough.

My opinion on the kick is that it has more risks than the jump. Kicking at the 1, there is the risk of scratching in the corner pocket. There is a chance that the 1 ball may hit the stack and open it up. If you hit the 1 ball too hard and I have an open look at it, I may play a return safe by bankig the 1 up table and burying the CB behind the stack...


Eric

Sid_Vicious
02-24-2004, 12:42 PM
"I like this guy and it's not a personal attack against him but what he did took no talent."

Jumping 4 times, making two of the balls and getting outta trouble on the other two? I'd say that was talent, but as you said in your tag line, everyone has an opinion. Maybe you should lock down a bit better on your safeties, that's one positive way of looking at playing jumping opponents, both players gain something with that viewpoint....sid

ChrisW
02-24-2004, 01:10 PM
I'm not trying to pick on you Rod.

Most people who are against the use of jump cues
are saying its because of the damage to the table.
Won't jumping with a full cue do the same damage?
I now folks who know how to jump won't drive the tip into the cloth and others will,
but won't those same folks be doing the same thing with a full cue?

For the record I am on board with banning jump cues and will gladly put mine away for good.
I am against them beacause I think it takes skill away from the game.
Chris

eg8r
02-24-2004, 01:13 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Here at Hard Times Billiards, Jump cues will be allowed in the OPEN and USPPA tournaments until the end of the year. THEN, no jump cues are to be allowed.
<hr /></blockquote> Tom, is Hard Times going to make jump shots illegal? Or just the cue?

eg8r

t411
02-24-2004, 01:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ChrisW:</font><hr> I'm not trying to pick on you Rod.

Most people who are against the use of jump cues
are saying its because of the damage to the table.
Won't jumping with a full cue do the same damage?
I now folks who know how to jump won't drive the tip into the cloth and others will,
but won't those same folks be doing the same thing with a full cue?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How many people did you see even try to attempt a jump shot before the the jump cue? Thats becouse for the most part people knew better, they could not do it.

ChrisW
02-24-2004, 01:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote t411:</font><hr>
How many people did you see even try to attempt a jump shot before the the jump cue? Thats becouse for the most part people knew better, they could not do it. <hr /></blockquote>

Me for one.

But I guess if they ban the jump cue I will forget that I ever jumped at all.

Chris

Tom_In_Cincy
02-24-2004, 01:57 PM
JUMP CUES will no longer be allowed after Jan. 1st 2005

Jump shots, that's another issue altogether. Later...

eg8r
02-24-2004, 02:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Most people who are against the use of jump cues
are saying its because of the damage to the table.
Won't jumping with a full cue do the same damage? <font color="blue"> Absolutely!!! This is why I don't believe table damage is the real issue. They are still allowing jumping, but you need to use the regular playing cue which can damage the table equally.</font color>
I now folks who know how to jump won't drive the tip into the cloth and others will,
but won't those same folks be doing the same thing with a full cue? <font color="blue"> Yes sir. </font color>

For the record I am on board with banning jump cues and will gladly put mine away for good. <font color="blue">I rarely if ever use mine, but I do believe since it is part of the game we should be allowed to use it. </font color> I am against them beacause I think it takes skill away from the game. <font color="blue"> I am not sure about taking any skill away, however they do add a skill. Just because a player has a jump cue, does not in any way mean he can skillfully use it. The jump cue adds 2 skills to the game... <ul type="square"> Jumping skill - The player must be able to skillfully execute a jump shot or risk the chance of selling out or fouling. Safety play - Knowing that your opponent is good with his jump cue, will force you to play better safeties. No more getting lucky rolls behind an ob. If you are going to play a safety you better get real close to the ob so the guy with the jumper has to take a less reliable shot at jumping. [/list] </font color> <hr /></blockquote> I have a Bunjee jump/break cue and I have a question...If I was in one of the tournaments and they outlawed the use of the jump cue and I am in a jumping situation, can I use my break cue? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif For me, the length of the cue is not the issue since I jump just as well with the cue in the break configuration as I do in the jump configuration.

If the rules disallow me to use my jump/break cue in the break configuration, then is this because I can only jump with my playing cue? If this is so, then why not make everyone break with their playing cue also?

eg8r &lt;~~~If playing in a tourney that does not allow a jump cue, I will compromise and use my break cue /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rod
02-24-2004, 02:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Most people who are against the use of jump cues
are saying its because of the damage to the table.
Won't jumping with a full cue do the same damage?
<hr /></blockquote>

I know your not picking on me Chris, it's a fair question. Yes they do, it's just that a jump cue promotes the use or abuse of equipment. People are more likely to try jumps once they know cues are specifically made for that purpose. Leave it up to there stock cue and few will try. Hell most don't even understand the principals behind a jump and why it works, whack and hope, I guess.

On the North side at a popular room that's all they did, jump balls for fun. Playing one of those guys was a dream however. Leave them hooked and you know the jump cue is already out. I can hit that, showing all of their manly skills! LOL Yes the ball was in danger of being hit, but the pocket most times wasn't in danger.

I doubt the jump cue will ever go away unless it is put into the rules, like Snooker. Until then we will just have a ton of half-assed players trying to jump balls and doing more harm than good, IMO.

Rod

Jay M
02-24-2004, 02:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I have a Bunjee jump/break cue and I have a question...If I was in one of the tournaments and they outlawed the use of the jump cue and I am in a jumping situation, can I use my break cue? For me, the length of the cue is not the issue since I jump just as well with the cue in the break configuration as I do in the jump configuration. <hr /></blockquote>

The US Open has had a rule for a few years (correct me if this has changed now Brady). The rule is that you can break with your break cue, but all other shots must be made with your unaltered playing cue (no, you can't break your cue down, even if it has a jump length segment). In the 2001 Open, Tommy Kennedy called a foul on someone in one of the TV matches because the other player (Davenport?)used his break cue for a jump on the shot immediately following the break. (Tommy was going to let it go as an honest mistake, but the guy was REALLY obvious about having done it deliberately).

The reason for a separate break cue is the damage done to the tip on power breaks. No one wants to watch a tournament that is plagued by miscues caused by people creating flat spots on their tips. With the current trend being soft cut breaks, many of the players don't even use the break cue when a Sardo rack is involved.

Jay M

ChrisW
02-24-2004, 02:57 PM
You are right. I probably should not have said "it takes skill away from the game". I think was was comparing the feeling I get when I execute a kick shot perfectly and a jump shot perfectly. I find a lot more pride in the kick than I do the jump.


When I played APA they outlawed jumpers by only allowing two cues in a match. One for shooting and one for breaking only. So we were not allowed to switch cues during the game.
I would think this is how a rule would look if it ever comes about.
I would also agree to give up my break cue if I had to. since I think people would break softer to save their tip which would also save the cloth (not to mention the innocent bystander).

Chris

eg8r
02-24-2004, 03:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I find a lot more pride in the kick than I do the jump.
<hr /></blockquote> I agree completely. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I would also agree to give up my break cue if I had to. since I think people would break softer to save their tip which would also save the cloth (not to mention the innocent bystander).
<hr /></blockquote> After having the lesson with Scott Lee, I hardly ever even take my break cue out of the bag. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif This may be more because of being lazy, but I usually just go ahead break with my playing cue. I have not seen any negatives effects on the cue or the tip.

eg8r

tateuts
02-24-2004, 05:03 PM
Rod,

I agree - they sell out way more than make the ball. Half the time I'm relieved to see my opponent reach for a jump cue.

Chris

tateuts
02-24-2004, 05:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>
Just to take your point further, I would still play the jump shot. The 1 ball isn't too difficult to make, if I missed, I might get a safe too i.e. 1 ball banks up table and CB 2 rails behind the stack.
Eric <hr /></blockquote>

Eric,

I would consider a jump shot in this situation insanely reckless unless you were the Jumpmeister himself - but I'm pretty conservative.

Chris

Paul_Mon
02-25-2004, 07:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> "I like this guy and it's not a personal attack against him but what he did took no talent."

Jumping 4 times, making two of the balls and getting outta trouble on the other two? I'd say that was talent, but as you said in your tag line, everyone has an opinion. Maybe you should lock down a bit better on your safeties, that's one positive way of looking at playing jumping opponents, both players gain something with that viewpoint....sid <hr /></blockquote>

Sid,
I'll stand by my original comment but qualify it. One of the balls pocketed was the object ball hanging and the other time he made a good hit and slopped in another ball. His jumping ability with the Jumper took no special talent. Had he used his shooting (or break) cue then some actual skill would have been required.

My point is this. Anyone can jump using a shortened/lightened Jump Cue. Used to be that playing a safety 6" or more behind a ball was pretty good and forced a player to kick. Now you need to be 3" or less if the opponent spent $75 and practiced 20 minutes.

Paul Mon

Wally_in_Cincy
02-25-2004, 07:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Paul_Mon:</font><hr>
....Anyone can jump using a shortened/lightened Jump Cue....<hr /></blockquote>

I can vouch for that /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

TomCincy had me jumping full balls with his Stealth on about the 4th try. If I can do it that easy there is a problem /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Popcorn
02-25-2004, 08:06 AM
Sounds like you just want a ball in hand and a cheap win, admit it. You guys get spoiled with the ball in hand, Why not try try running out for real.

Paul_Mon
02-25-2004, 08:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> You did not say why he had to use the jump cue. I would not happen to be after you played some cheap safe trying to get ball in hand (instead of running out), or missed and got lucky? You play some half assed safe, and the guy has to do a back flip trying to get out of it. Lets face it, you just want a big reward for nothing. You want to beat that guy with the jump cue every time, try running out and you will have nothing to worry about. <hr /></blockquote>

I'm not sure how to reply to you. What's a half assed safe? I play safe when the percentages dictate. I go for the run when the percentages dictate. That said this guy and I are friends, we split table time. So usually we go for the runout, seldom place safe and almost never shoot the 9 ball early.

If I was matching up for cash or playing in a tournament things would different. I may have clusters that I don't want to deal with unless I can get BIH. I will ALWAYS go for the 9 early if the risk is low and the reward is winning the game. Your comments may apply to touring Pro's but at my level attempting a run out every time would be foolish.


Paul Mon~~~~~~lousy pool player, no fool

#### leonard
02-25-2004, 08:21 AM
I have to admit that Pro Golfers are the smartest sport profession. Where else can you get 1500 volunteers working 200+ hours in the hope of getting money donated to the Charity of their Choice. Without the volunteers, the prize money would be close to Womens Pool Purses.

Forty years ago, I wrote a piece for the American Billiard Revue asking the players to band together and copy the Pro Golf Tour. Forty years later they still haven't a clue.####

Paul_Mon
02-25-2004, 08:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Sounds like you just want a ball in hand and a cheap win, admit it. You guys get spoiled with the ball in hand, Why not try try running out for real. <hr /></blockquote>

Read my post again. I'll defer to the great Vince Lombardi in regards to your implication that I'm looking for a CHEAP win.

"Winning isn't everything, it is the only thing."

Paul Mon

Wally_in_Cincy
02-25-2004, 08:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Sounds like you just want a ball in hand and a cheap win, admit it. You guys get spoiled with the ball in hand, Why not try running out for real. <hr /></blockquote>

So if you 3-foul an opponent is that also a "cheap win" ?

eg8r
02-25-2004, 09:04 AM
[ QUOTE ]
JUMP CUES will no longer be allowed after Jan. 1st 2005

Jump shots, that's another issue altogether. Later...
<hr /></blockquote> Alright. Thank you, I just wanted to make it clear that the banning of Jump Cues has absolutely nothing to do with damage to tables.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote from Tony:</font><hr> First and foremost, despite assurances to the contrary by manufacturers, the proliferation of jump cues not only alters the tradition behind the game, <font color="blue"> but also without question affects the cloth and the overall playing condition of the table. </font color>
<hr /></blockquote> I would like to see evidence of the cue affecting the table. Surely it is quite true that the same damage would occur if the jump was performed with a normal cue. It is obvious this has nothing to do with damage.

Thanks for clearing that up. Later...

eg8r

cheesemouse
02-25-2004, 09:11 AM
This is an interesting thread. The same thread is going on at the AZ forum. It seems a slight majority think the jump sticks are not good for the game in that the jump sitck inhibits the up and coming players from devoting enough time to the kick side of the game. Another argument against the j/s is that it is too easy to learn the technique...I have to agree with both arguments but with a distinction in the form of a few questions: Are you willing to let the level of your play be limited because of pig-headedness??? Do you remember when it was legal to 'dart' with just your shaft? Do you remember when the Pino's invaded America and changed the game with their kicking skills?........and finally, do you still drive 55 on the Interstate???

The speed limit has changed and those that drive at the old limit just get passed bye.....I think it's call reality....

eg8r
02-25-2004, 09:21 AM
[ QUOTE ]
My point is this. Anyone can jump using a shortened/lightened Jump Cue. Used to be that playing a safety 6" or more behind a ball was pretty good and forced a player to kick. Now you need to be 3" or less if the opponent spent $75 and practiced 20 minutes.
<hr /></blockquote> My post is not meant to be mean spirited but I understand how it could come across that way. With that being said... This type of argument (the one quoted above) usually does not stand up on its own. It comes across to me that whenever someone makes this statement it is evident that they do not want to work any harder at their own game. You are requesting the guy about to jump to spend countless hours, with an inferior cue, practicing jumping, while at the same time, you do not want to put forth the same effort shoring up the inferior safety play. Why doesn't the jump cue push people into practicing their safety play? Why is it alright for you to demand a guy spend more hours practicing jump shots with their playing cue and you do not demand the same of yourself on safety play?

With all that being said, I would not consider six inch distance between cb and obstructing ball to be a very good safety anyways. That is plenty of room to work if you decide to kick or jump. Six inches just is not close at all. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I cannot wait to see what the outcome will be after they go a full season/year without the jump cues. If it works out great, then the other tour promoters will make their decision. We will have to wait and see.

eg8r

Popcorn
02-25-2004, 09:26 AM
quote
"I play safe when the percentages dictate. I go for the run when the percentages dictate."

With the jump cue in the mix those percentages change and it sounds like you don't like it. The more I read these posts the more I am convinced this has nothing to do with the jump cue or wanting to preserve the integrity and tradition of the game or anything like that. It has to do with wanting to be able to win without doing anything, being lazy, through safety play and not shooting ability. Players get spoiled with ball in hand and actually become afraid to shoot, I see it all the time. They right away are looking for some place to duck or hide, even with shots available. The object of safety play is to gain an offensive shot before your opponent does and win the game. I see players looking to duck just because they want it to be easy and when it doesn't work they feel cheated and look for something to blame. So they blame the jump cue for their disappointment of not getting ball in hand. No one promised you easy run outs every time you come to the table.

Again this opinion is based on the current rules, but the more I think about it, the more I believe the jump cue may be a must for the integrity of the game. One change that may be a nice would be rules governing the use of the jump cue. It should only be allowed to be used on an incoming shot, once per inning. That way a player could not bail themselves out in case they messed up position. But it would allow them to use it after a safety or if the other player missed and left them snookered, they would have the choice to use it or not. Once they shoot though, no more jumping the rest of that inning. That would provide a good place for the use of the jump cue. I am just brain storming, maybe others have ideas. The object is to raise the level of the game, a rule like this would help do that. They have even added back the push after the break recognizing the value of it. The game does not have to completely changed, just refined a little to make it a more championship quality game.

Eric.
02-25-2004, 09:31 AM
Chris,

Your opinion is noted. While I don't agree with you, to each their own. I can say this, if you ever decide to become more proficient with a jump cue one day, you may see this as a decent 2 way shot, with a higher make/don't sell out percentage than the kick.


Eric &gt;not even a half-a-Jumpmeister

Troy
02-25-2004, 09:35 AM
I didn't drive 55 during those years 55 was the max. I'm old school --- 65-75 was the speed limit.

Popcorn
02-25-2004, 11:27 AM
It's a tool, and if it comes up you should use it. I would in most cases not pass on a run out to try to three foul a player, I prefer being at the table.

Popcorn
02-25-2004, 11:49 AM
You are right, win however you can within the rules. But you didn't win those games in your original post, so you want the rules changed to make it easier for you to play safe.

Paul_Mon
02-25-2004, 12:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> You are right, win however you can within the rules. But you didn't win those games in your original post, so you want the rules changed to make it easier for you to play safe. <hr /></blockquote>

You're a lot like my wife. She reads my mind incorrectly too /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Again I'll ask you to go back and read my posts. I NEVER said if I won those games or not. I NEVER said I want the rules changed so I can play safe. I said that my OPINION of the Jump Cue was that they should be eliminated. I based my OPINION on the lack of any talent required to use a Jump Cue. I DO NOT want to eliminate jumping. I DO want to win.

Read this slowly (twice if you need to) and then tell me again how I'm trying to make the game easy and avoid getting better.

Paul Mon

Popcorn
02-25-2004, 12:57 PM
I don't want to belabor this, but I don't know anyone that can jump a ball with their playing cue from a foot away and do it with any control at all. It is all you can do to get over the ball and keep the cue ball on the table even at several feet away. To remove the jump cue is really in affect, to remover the jump shot. The jump shot when done right with a jump cue is a real finesse shot. It is not a matter that a lesser player can now do the shot, without the jump cue even pros can't jump with any real value. A skilled player with a jump cue brings an interesting aspect to the game of 9 ball and creates new challenges for the players in both safety play and strategy. I can't from either a players or spectators point of view, think of any drawbacks. I am being honest. You know, even with the jump cue, for most players, just getting over the ball and making contact is a major challenge, to produce any real results requires a lot of skill and practice and the ability to accomplish it in a game situation. It is not a nothing shot any idiot with a jump cue can do, most just sell out and the cue has minimal real value to them at best.

Sid_Vicious
02-25-2004, 02:03 PM
First, I've seen cloth damaged many times with players jumping long cue, but I can't remember ever seeing any kind of similar damage in jump cue usage, so IMO that dog don't hunt. As far as the argument of the finesse or lack of talent needed for jump shots, that isn't true either. I'll agree that simply hitting the OB without a plan of where you intend both the OB and the CB is going to go, benefits the other player as much, or more, than the jumper,,,so why complain? There's been one suggestion stated here about limiting the amounts of jumps per inning, and my response to that is that there should be an equal limit to intentional safeties played. Some of you safety kings are overboard with gaining extra, lockdown advantage by incessantly beating down an opponent with safeties, while an open table exists for a run. If those here who complain about jump cues making it so easy for a weaker player, then consider making concessions concerning basically unnecessary safeties. As far as the Vince Lombardi quote saying winning is everything, and should be the only focus, no matter what...well, a jump cue is just as worthy of Lombardi's statement when it comes to pool. Nuff said...sid

JohnBarton
02-25-2004, 02:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jay M:</font><hr> To throw a bit of my own thoughts into this discussion...

I thought that jumps were the coolest thing ever when I learned how to do them. I stopped kicking completely except when I was nearly frozen. I could pocket ANYTHING that I could have shot in without an obstruction. I played with jumps until I knew them inside and out. Hours and hours and hours spent doing nothing except jumping. English, follow, draw and even masse out of a jump shot. A couple of years ago, we measured how far I had to be from an object ball to get over the whole ball, it was about 4 inches. We're talking about YEARS of practice to get here. Holly can attest to my jumping, she saw it come out a few times in practice and then during a scotch doubles tournament where we were partners. There are a few other people here that have seen it as well. Heck, in one Kennedy event I pushed after the break into a spot where I could jump to a cut shot, knowing that the other guy would give it back to me, then ran out the table from there.

I don't and WON'T use a jump cue. The fact that someone with a couple of hours practice can duplicate, and even outperform, my shots with a jump cue doesn't nullify the fact that I am proud of my ability in this area. Heck, it's probably the most notable feature in my game. I strongly dislike the attitude of letting someone, or something, else do everything for you that pervades society in general today. It manifests everywhere and is a direct result of the technological advances made over the last 60 years. I could go into a serious diatribe on this, but it all boils down to laziness. People in general seem to want things handed to them on a platter, making those of us that worked for our skills less apt to pass on the knowledge, leading to it's complete loss in a very short time. Players always wonder why the pros don't pass on their secrets. Part of it is to eliminate the possibility of competition, true... The other part is that when we show a "secret" to someone, they reply with "oh, why would I use that kick? I'd just use my jump cue from here" or something along those lines and the knowledge is lost.

As you can tell, I have nothing but disdain for the jump cue and other technological enhancements that have such dramatic effect on the game without a tradeoff in skill. I agree with things that have a minor effect, like new tips. The reason is that, in actuality, it takes MORE skill to use the new tips, not less. The Moori's that I use require a PERFECT hit to be able to control the cue, but the tradeoff is that the tip is more consistent than others. When you hit it properly, it does EXACTLY what you tell it to do.

Anyhow, this argument has been raging for years, and will continue to rage until jump cues have been banned or all of the older players that remember how much skill was required to jump have moved on. Remember, the equipment is a smoke screen argument, it's the skill that is the real issue.

Jay M

P.S. the dents in the table are caused by the ball itself. My breaking spot on the table I played on every day developed a dent that would cause the cue ball to jump at just the right angle with a flat stroke. I don't touch the table with my cue until more than 6 inches past the spot when I break. <hr /></blockquote>

Jay, I could hand you a perfectly good pool cue that would cut down the number of jump shots you can make at least half. Then I could hand you another perfectly good cue which you would be able to jump any ball on the table with ease. You have developed a tremendous ability at jumping and so I say that using a jump cue you would be practically a superstar at it. I know that if we were to match up jumping with full cues that you probably would not want to use the cue I would choose for you. You would want to use the cue you are used to, the one that works for you.

The jump cue merely eliminates the cue variable making it the same starting point for everyone. Then the true skill comes through. I have thousand of hours of jumping practice in and I already know that you can outjump me with a jump cue. Why is this? Because you have a better stroke and more experience than I do. The jump cue certainly allows some people to jump but it does not make them better players. That's the difference. The better player will always be more consistent and make more shots than the weaker player no matter what equipment they are using.

I have two friends who are also accomplished full cue jumpers. Both of them were completely bowled over when they started using jump cues and now they are so deadly accurate that it is scary. Leave a ball in the middle of the table and they make it look as though there is no blocking ball. I can't do this and I have thousands of hours of practice. In my opinion my friends have taken a new tool and applied their great skill to it to enhance their game considerably. What's wrong with that?

John

SpiderMan
02-25-2004, 02:20 PM
Very good point, John. If hammers were outlawed a carpenter might derive great personal satisfaction in learning to skillfully drive nails with a brick, but he'd be way off base to complain when his competition chooses a better tool.

SpiderMan

Paul_Mon
02-25-2004, 03:33 PM
Well said. Makes me look at it in a new light. What's kinda funny is that my local pool hall, the one RailbirdJAM mentions above, requires players to use a break cloth. Additionally, until just recently almost nobody used a Jumper here. I've heard that the manager is kinda PO'd with people using them but so far hasn't disallowed Jumpers. IMO, they don't really hurt the cloth as much as the hard breaks do. Their use is much less and spread all over the table vs. the break. Again, excellent post.

Paul Mon~~~~~~maybe I'll try one out at VF.

tateuts
02-25-2004, 03:34 PM
I again ask everyone. How many games in the last year have you lost because someone successfully jumped a ball, pocketed the object ball (in the intended pocket) and ran out on you?

I only remember two games where someone did it to me. One with a jump cue and one with a regular cue. In both cases, I beat them in the race.

Rod
02-25-2004, 04:11 PM
I don't know Chris, I have a short memory for that kind of stuff. My best guess might be a half dozen times, possibly more. That really isn't my point, I don't like the dam things. BTW I can jump pretty good. When the shaft jump started, I never allowed it in my tournaments. Another poor example of how pool should be played. I think the game should be played with one shooting cue but a break cue is ok by me. Others may like jump cues, ok fine. We both have our likes and dislikes.

Rod

Sid_Vicious
02-25-2004, 05:25 PM
I've dished several out with my JC...no brag, just fact...sid

Jay M
02-25-2004, 05:35 PM
I still disagree with you John. I know a shooter that came up from being a novice to being a very good shooter over a period of about 8 years (he's a 7 now). He had never jumped a ball before, but with about 10 minutes of coaching and another 10 or 15 minutes of practice, he was making jumps with a jump cue. Not easy jumps either, less than 8 inches between the cue ball and obstruction. Not just hitting the balls, but making them and playing shape. All it really takes is an understanding of how the jump really works and the jump cue does the work. With a jump cue he could nearly equal the results that I get... with 10 years less practice at them.

I've used them to see what I could do with them and the net result for me was that I could move the cue ball about 2 inches closer to the object ball and still get over it. My point is that it doesn't substantially change the limits for someone that knows how to jump already, it merely provides a method for someone else to reproduce the same shot with less effort and practice.

I keep hearing all of the technology arguments. Why don't we build a robot that can play the game for us. Then we can send the robot out to play, controlled by a computer. That will free us all up to watch videos of the days when people actually used wooden cues to hit the ball.

Jay M

JohnBarton
02-25-2004, 06:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jay M:</font><hr> I still disagree with you John. With a jump cue he could nearly equal the results that I get... with 10 years less practice at them.

I've used them to see what I could do with them and the net result for me was that I could move the cue ball about 2 inches closer to the object ball and still get over it. My point is that it doesn't substantially change the limits for someone that knows how to jump already, it merely provides a method for someone else to reproduce the same shot with less effort and practice.

I keep hearing all of the technology arguments. Why don't we build a robot that can play the game for us. Then we can send the robot out to play, controlled by a computer. That will free us all up to watch videos of the days when people actually used wooden cues to hit the ball.

Jay M <hr /></blockquote>

Well, all I can say is that I think you are depriving yourself. I think of the jump cue as the leather tip of this era. You are like the cueists who spent years learning to spin the ball with no tip and then along comes the leather tip and all of the sudden all that effort is either wasted or put to good use getting even better depending on how you look at it.

Well, jump cues aren't going away. I guess you are just one of the players who will have to suffer them.

I sure long for the days when billiards was played with a mace. :-))

John

tateuts
02-26-2004, 08:38 AM
Sid,

I know you are the Jumpmeister! I like your go-fer-it attitude.

Chris

Paul_Mon
02-26-2004, 09:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JohnBarton:</font><hr> [
You are like the cueists who spent years learning to spin the ball with no tip and then along comes the leather tip and all of the sudden all that effort is either wasted or put to good use getting even better depending on how you look at it.


John
<hr /></blockquote>

Aw come on John, you wern't there when that happened. That analogy dosen't cut it. Do golfers want to go back to using a feathery ball and hickory shafted clubs? Of course not. But the USGA and the Royal and Ancient (golfs governing bodies) have agreed that technology has limits. Pool (with it's alphabet soup of governing bodies) can't seem to make a definitive stand, so we have these disagreements.

Paul Mon