PDA

View Full Version : Double Hits



jayeye44
02-25-2004, 02:12 AM
I am a weekly 9-Ball tournament director for a sports bar in Long Beach, CA and I am interested in getting copies of the 3-part article on "Double Hits" in the June, August and October of 1993 issues of Billiards Digest. I seem to remember fast-shutter camera pictures in this series of very scientific and technical articles on the subject but I might be mistaken. I am trying to train a substitute director on how to detect a double hit when the cue ball and object ball are very close and are struck with a level cue. I would be happy to pay postage and compensate for your time. Thank you, Jack from Yankee Doodles

stick8
02-26-2004, 02:46 PM
Cant help you with billiard digest story,but you can go to www.texas exrpess and get the rule and info on the rule STICK

Troy
02-26-2004, 04:23 PM
Quoting from the BCA Rules ---
2.20 JUDGING DOUBLE HITS
When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube, special attention from the referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul.

Following this rule should make it easy to judge whether a double hit has occurred.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jayeye44:</font><hr> I am a weekly 9-Ball tournament director for a sports bar in Long Beach, CA and I am interested in getting copies of the 3-part article on "Double Hits" in the June, August and October of 1993 issues of Billiards Digest. I seem to remember fast-shutter camera pictures in this series of very scientific and technical articles on the subject but I might be mistaken. I am trying to train a substitute director on how to detect a double hit when the cue ball and object ball are very close and are struck with a level cue. I would be happy to pay postage and compensate for your time. Thank you, Jack from Yankee Doodles <hr /></blockquote>

jayeye44
02-26-2004, 04:30 PM
Thanks, Troy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

jayeye44
02-26-2004, 04:32 PM
Thanks for the heads up, Stick.

Bob_Jewett
02-27-2004, 12:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> Quoting from the BCA Rules ---
2.20 JUDGING DOUBLE HITS
When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube, special attention from the referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul. <hr /></blockquote>
Unfortunately, this is only a guideline for inexperienced referees to judge double hits when they are unsure of what they are doing. On most close shots where the cue ball penetrates the space of the object ball by half a ball (and draws back), the shot is a foul. On some shots where the cue ball is a quarter-inch from the object ball, it is possible to get the cue ball to follow straight through with a level stroke and no foul. See the article at Close shot article (http://www.sfbilliards.com/close_quarters2.pdf) for some ways to avoid hitting the cue ball twice on such shots.

tateuts
02-27-2004, 09:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jayeye44:</font><hr> I am trying to train a substitute director on how to detect a double hit when the cue ball and object ball are very close and are struck with a level cue. <hr /></blockquote>

I looked through my back BD issues and I don't have these.

My experience has been that this is almost always a double hit if the cue tip follows through at all.

From a players standpoint, I think it would be helpful to them to have a demonstration of the type of shots you are talking about. A lot of amateur players think the "push shot" is legal. We used to allow them in our room.

Here's a pretty good animation and description of the push foul and double hit:

http://www.jimloy.com/billiard/pushshot.htm

Here's also the official Texas Express rules and definition of the two fouls (see 5.3)

http://www.texasexpress.com/rules_sec5.htm#54

Chris

jayeye44
02-27-2004, 10:15 AM
Chris -- thank you very much for your insight and very helpful links! Jack in Long Beach

jayeye44
02-27-2004, 10:30 AM
Thanks, Bob. I'm going to experiment with the "table-stop" hand trick to see if it helps with those tiny bump shots you have to have in your arsenal when playing one-pocket. I always foul! Jack

Frank_Glenn
02-27-2004, 11:35 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a pretty good animation and description of the push foul and double hit:

http://www.jimloy.com/billiard/pushshot.htm <hr /></blockquote>

This is a foul, but a push shot is when you place the tip on the cueball and push (steer) the cueball somewhere it would not go with a regular stroke (hence the rule it is OK to shoot through the balls when the balls are frozen if you use a regular stroke)

houstondan
02-27-2004, 12:40 PM
easiest way to tell a double is by the sound. you'll hear it if you listen.

looks like tx-ex rules confused the issue by trying to have it both ways. if the ob is frozen to the cb, bca says it's ok to shoot straight thru them, with a normal stroke and it's not a push. that'll send 'em about the same direction and speed which tx-ex would seem to call a foul.

doesn't matter, a real push is almost impossible to prove and most players will call a double a push anyway. least understood rules in all of pool.

dan

tateuts
02-27-2004, 01:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote houstondan:</font><hr> easiest way to tell a double is by the sound. you'll hear it if you listen.

looks like tx-ex rules confused the issue by trying to have it both ways. if the ob is frozen to the cb, bca says it's ok to shoot straight thru them, with a normal stroke and it's not a push. that'll send 'em about the same direction and speed which tx-ex would seem to call a foul.


dan <hr /></blockquote>

Dan,

It actually is a foul. It's a push stroke foul or a double hit, one of the two. The definition of "normal stroke" is neither of the above.

Most confusing rule in the book as far as I'm concerned.

Chris

daviddjmp
02-27-2004, 01:08 PM
Thanks, Bob-

This is extremely helpful information, as it comes up everytime the CB is close to the OB which happens in my other leagues often. I have seen your demonstration in our Straight Pool league which helps a lot. It is a shame that there are so many referees who do not have the experience or expertise to correctly judge this. The foul actually only happens if the cue tip strikes the CB twice, correct?

tateuts
02-27-2004, 01:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Frank_Glenn:</font><hr>
http://www.jimloy.com/billiard/pushshot.htm <hr /></blockquote>

This is a foul, but a push shot is when you place the tip on the cueball and push (steer) the cueball somewhere it would not go with a regular stroke (hence the rule it is OK to shoot through the balls when the balls are frozen if you use a regular stroke) <hr /></blockquote>

Frank,

This shot can be accomplished only with a double hit or a push shot. What the author is saying is that it's one foul or the other, but not a normal stroke.

Chris

houstondan
02-27-2004, 01:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote houstondan:</font><hr> easiest way to tell a double is by the sound. you'll hear it if you listen.

looks like tx-ex rules confused the issue by trying to have it both ways. if the ob is frozen to the cb, bca says it's ok to shoot straight thru them, with a normal stroke and it's not a push. that'll send 'em about the same direction and speed which tx-ex would seem to call a foul.


dan <hr /></blockquote>

Dan,

It actually is a foul. It's a push stroke foul or a double hit, one of the two. The definition of "normal stroke" is neither of the above.

Most confusing rule in the book as far as I'm concerned.

Chris <hr /></blockquote>

nope...not a foul. the "normal stroke" is not defined but it is generally agreed to be a smooth, "forward stroking motion", which, if the balls are frozen will result in the cb tracking along with the ob. i've had this personally verified by one of the bca masters who wrote this stuff...no, not randy, the other one...richard. if they're frozen then you won't likely get a double and all bca-push asks is that the tip be in contact with the ball as "commensurate with a normal stroke". it's an absolutely legal shot. jusy stroke right thru and send 'em on their way. if they're frozen.

dan

tateuts
02-27-2004, 01:48 PM
Dan,

Think about it - when was the last time you saw a pro do it in a tournament?

Chris

Rod
02-27-2004, 02:10 PM
Bob,

I read your article and it is useful for those trying to avoid a foul. What I found was similar to yours in the beginning dealing with shot #1. Using a swerve stroke will enable a person to stop or draw the ball. Many years ago (about 30) LOL I thought it was the answer to avoid a double hit because it gets the tip/shaft out of the way. The stroke takes some time to master and really isn't that consistent.

I was missing something that many years ago I discovered on my own. Not that I was the first but I'd never seen anyone else do it. Later on I did see another player who was very good do the same, now there are many. The thinking of a swerve stroke sounds logical. What happens is it really isn't needed. Just change your cue aim line and it has the same effect except more consistent. IMO

When the balls are say 1/8" apart, what avoids the foul is just using side english, no swerve is needed. The cue tip is in contact with the c/b when it strikes the object ball because they are so close. You can feel the weight of both balls. There is not a double hit because using side english deflects it and the cue automatically deflects to the side. Excuse me I'm not the greatest writer about explaining this in print.

Here is the same shot as your #1 but we are drawing the c/b for position on the 9 ball. The balls are appx 1/8" apart with a level straight stroke using low right english. Draw the c/b to point C for position. A is the line of both balls, B is the direction of the cue.

web page (http://Wei table)

START(
%Hg7E0%ID1O9%Pi1E2%Qm8E1%RD7C7%SE5F4%UF0D5%Vl5E0%W G8H1%Xj7Z7
%YT1C7%Zn2E5%[k3Z7%\s4Q1%eC4b5%_r2P0%`l6L1%ai8E9
)END

If the cue line can be changed for a more direct hit like your #1 shot but I'm just showing this as another example.
I shot this just a couple of weeks ago for some guys. I made it 4 times in a row out of 5 tries. It can be very consistent if one practices enough. I've found it useful over the years with shots that are very close. Problem is people have a tendency to want to call a foul. What are your thoughts, anyone?


Rod

Wally_in_Cincy
02-27-2004, 02:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> Dan,

Think about it - when was the last time you saw a pro do it in a tournament?

Chris <hr /></blockquote>

They are good enough to not leave themselves thusly screwed /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

tateuts
02-27-2004, 02:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> They are good enough to not leave themselves thusly screwed /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I actually miss that old push/shove throw shot. In our old room, the local rule was that it was allowed as long as you used one continuous stroke (which was, of course, a push or double hit, but who knew?). Well, I got to the point that if the cue ball was frozen to the object ball, I could either throw it into a pocket or bank it about 90% of the time and get shape. Good old days.

Chris

houstondan
02-27-2004, 03:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> Dan,

Think about it - when was the last time you saw a pro do it in a tournament?

Chris <hr /></blockquote>

ok, try this:

bca..current 2003 ed. "3.23 FOUL BY DOUBLE HITS if the cue ball is touching the required object ball prior to the shot, the player may shoot toward it, provided that any normal stroke is employed."

how could it be any more clear? and yes, i see it all the time. the pros around here tend to know the rules. examine it, declare it, shoot right thru it.

dan

tateuts
02-27-2004, 04:11 PM
Dan,

OK - you're right. Go ahead and keep hitting them that way.

Chris

SpiderMan
02-27-2004, 04:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>When the balls are say 1/8" apart, what avoids the foul is just using side english, no swerve is needed. The cue tip is in contact with the c/b when it strikes the object ball because they are so close. You can feel the weight of both balls. There is not a double hit because using side english deflects it and the cue automatically deflects to the side. Excuse me I'm not the greatest writer about explaining this in print.


I shot this just a couple of weeks ago for some guys. I made it 4 times in a row out of 5 tries. It can be very consistent if one practices enough. I've found it useful over the years with shots that are very close. Problem is people have a tendency to want to call a foul. What are your thoughts, anyone?
Rod
<hr /></blockquote>

Rod,

I believe this is the same shot you demonstrated to me a couple of years ago. The first instinct is to call it a foul, but if you think about the mechanics of what happens it is obviously a fair shot. The key to me is the fact that, when using draw, the cueball does not move forward at all beyond the point of contact with the object ball.

I did get to where I could make the shot, but not consistently. I can get the deflection but often don't get the shaft out of the way and wind up nicking the side of the cueball. So, I don't do this at all in competition.

SpiderMan

Rod
02-27-2004, 05:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The key to me is the fact that, when using draw, the cueball does not move forward at all beyond the point of contact with the object ball.
<hr /></blockquote>


Spiderman,

Yes the proof is in the pudding. Now say if those balls were 1/2 inch apart the c/b would have left the tip before contact with the object ball. Then it continues forward and strikes the c/b again after or about the same time as contact creating the double hit. The cue ball doesn't draw obviously and goes flying with the o/b in most cases but not always. Sometimes it may stop but has already passed through the space of where the o/b originally was on the table. Some hits can be very close so it takes a good ref to make the call. If it's so close that the ref is in question, then IMO it goes to the shooter.

When you were here it was with that heavy bar table c/b so the draw didn't work near as well. It's still a good shot to know even if you just want to hold the c/b.



Rod

Alfie
03-03-2004, 11:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> When the balls are say 1/8" apart, [...]. The cue tip is in contact with the c/b when it strikes the object ball because they are so close.

[...] What are your thoughts, anyone? <hr /></blockquote>I thought this was legal too. No push, a normally stroked shot. No double hit, the tip hits the CB once. But I read on RSB that it is a foul due to a part of rule 3.23 FOULS BY DOUBLE HITS, i.e., "[...], or if the cue stick is in contact with the cue ball when or after the cue ball contacts an object ball, the shot is foul."

Rod
03-03-2004, 12:32 PM
Yep, I know the rule but it isn't always called a foul. Me and the local boys have had a conversation or two. Most think it is perfectly legal, like me, but a couple of them think it is a foul. I have shot these type of shots in a tourney and gambling, never had a foul called yet. It's rare they come up but when the do it's nice to know it's available.

Rod

pooltchr
03-03-2004, 02:14 PM
If you really want to know, set up the shot with a VERY clean cue ball. Chalk your cue up real good and shoot the shot. Pick up the cue ball and see where you left chalk on the cb. There is a way to shoot it legally, but in most cases, you will see two distinct chalk marks

Frank_Glenn
03-03-2004, 02:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> If you really want to know, set up the shot with a VERY clean cue ball. Chalk your cue up real good and shoot the shot. Pick up the cue ball and see where you left chalk on the cb. There is a way to shoot it legally, but in most cases, you will see two distinct chalk marks <hr /></blockquote>

If you use the 8 ball for the cueball, you can see the two marks very well. This is how I show a non-believer when they say "I didn't hit it twice". Like you said, clean it first.