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View Full Version : The Luck Of The Draw.... Or Not



Barbara
02-26-2004, 01:30 PM
The brackets are up for the Delta Classic and I can't believe it when I see Gina Kim-Lipsky playing Jennifer Barretta in the first round. The winner/loser of that match gets to play the winner/loser of the Carol Clark vs Belinda Calhoun match. Karen Armstrong gets to play her former housemate, Kim Shaw, too. The winner/loser of that match meets up with the winner/loser of the Hopkins-Atwell match.

Why is it these NorthEast women always play each other in the first rounds of the Big Events?

Lori Jon drew Allison Fisher - no pressure there, right?!

And answer me this, since I don't have my bye chart handy right now. In a 64-player field the two byes are at 22 and 58? I would've thought they'd be at 32 and 64.

http://www.wpba.com/cms/?pid=1003494

Barbara~~~really curious about the bye placements...

Perk
02-26-2004, 02:11 PM
Not familiar with the WPBA bye system...but what is the big deal? One buy in the top bracket, and one in the bottom? Seems right to me.

Would be nice to see Alice get a bye or break into the t.v. for her first time.

Barbara
02-26-2004, 02:13 PM
Perk,

Believe it or not, there is a method to the madness of placing byes.

However, my chart is at home and I am at work.

Barbara

Wally_in_Cincy
02-26-2004, 02:45 PM
I can't see a motive for any nefarious activity regarding the draw. There's a bunch of NE players (I counted 9 or 10 in the bracket) so naturally they are going to draw one another frequently.

Barbara
02-26-2004, 02:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> I can't see a motive for any nefarious activity regarding the draw. There's a bunch of NE players (I counted 9 or 10 in the bracket) so naturally they are going to draw one another frequently. <hr /></blockquote>

That's not what I meant at all, Wally. It just must suck to travel a thousand miles with all that money involved to end up playing your hometown buddy in the first round.

But the placing the of two byes just seems to be wrong.

Barbara

Troy
02-26-2004, 04:14 PM
I'm not aware of any specific "rule" regarding the placement of byes except they should be placed intelligently. #28 &amp; #58 are both in the same place of each half so it seems fine with me. I'd put them at #32 &amp; #64, but it doesn't seem to matter that much in this case.

Troy.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Perk,

Believe it or not, there is a method to the madness of placing byes.

However, my chart is at home and I am at work.

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

Rod
02-26-2004, 04:17 PM
22 and 54 seems more logical, I wonder why 58. Other than that, like you said 32 and 64.

Rod

Mr Ingrate
02-26-2004, 04:40 PM
Barbara,

Interesting that you should mention that. In my new software I have two methods of randomizing a draw, regular or regional. In the regional method I sort according to country, city, state, zip/postal and assign players to the draw so those from the same region won't meet in the first round. Seeded players, of course, take priority before other players are assigned.

AND as to seeding and assigning byes, a while back I did a brief "Theory of Byes and Seeding". You can access it from this link (http://members.shaw.ca/pooltools/theory.html).

Mr Ingrate
02-26-2004, 04:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> I'm not aware of any specific "rule" regarding the placement of byes except they should be placed intelligently. #28 &amp; #58 are both in the same place of each half so it seems fine with me. I'd put them at #32 &amp; #64, but it doesn't seem to matter that much in this case.

Troy.<hr /></blockquote>

The only reason I can think of for the way the byes were assigned may have to do with player seeding. For instance, if you assign them according to my document in my previous post, the lowest seeds will always get the byes. Of course, if there is no seeding, it is immaterial. My numbering system accomplishes even distribution of byes, seeding, and first round byes to seeded players and eliminates the need to think about where to place the byes.

I am aware of no hard and fast rule as to where to place byes other than the byes should be distributed as evenly as possible.

Barbara
02-26-2004, 06:15 PM
Dave,

That would be a good thing for the BCA to pick up on. I remember one year my one GF from dg's area had to play a friend of hers in the first round. Not good.

Barbara

Barbara
02-26-2004, 06:19 PM
Troy,

My bye chart places the first two byes in a 64-player field at player slot #64 and #32.

And the one bye on the WPBA chart was at 22, not 28.

I can't believe this is the first time some of you have heard of a bye chart. one time I played in this bar-box tournament and the TD left all the byes towards the end of the chart. Literally. One gal won 4 matches without playing anyone else. Intelligently placed is necessary.

Barbara

SRpool
02-27-2004, 05:01 AM
Hey Barbara,

I think the byes were randomly drawn they just made sure there was one in the top bracket and one in the bottom bracket. There really aren't supposed to be any byes at all but I guess there were some last minute cancellations.

As for your northeast players playing each other...you keep producing good players. Your area and the Florida area are very well represented here at the Delta Classic.

Sarah Rousey

jjinfla
02-27-2004, 07:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SRpool:</font><hr> Hey Barbara,

I think the byes were randomly drawn they just made sure there was one in the top bracket and one in the bottom bracket. Sarah Rousey <hr /></blockquote>

I believe that is all that one should worry about if there are two byes. One in the top half and one in the lower half. Statistically it makes no difference where they are in each half - just so one is in the top half and the other is in the bottom half. And the byes are in place prior to the drawing of names to fill the chart.

If there are three byes then a coin toss determines if the extra bye is in the top or lower half. And then again one bye must be in the top half of 16 and the other in the bottom half.

Then after the byes are in place on the chart the players are randomly drawn and placed on the chart from top to bottom.

That would be a true and random drawing.

Then the laws of probability would take over as to the matchups.

Barbara, I would venture that if you were to write all the names of the players on pieces of paper, make up a brackets chart, and then randomly pick the names and place them on the chart from top to bottom you will find that everytime you do it you will be able to come up with matchups that seem strange. That is just the luck of the draw, and the laws of probability.

When seeding is used its purpose is to give the high seeds an advantage by making sure that top players do not have to face each other in the early rounds. Theoretically, that is their reward for for working hard and achieving a high skill rating - or a high seed. And if the other players want to receive that reward they have to work harder on their game to raise their rating.

At a local tournament here the TD has a 3x5 card for each of the players. On it he keeps their skill level and the amount of money the person has won. When people sign up for a tournament their card is placed on a stack. When it is time to fill the chart the cards are shuffled then they are stacked and turned over one at a time and the name placed on the chart from top to bottom. Anyone can watch it and it eliminates a lot of questioning. It is amazing how many times I have drawn the person I was practicing with.

Jake

Barbara
02-27-2004, 08:28 AM
Thanks for the clarification about the byes, Sarah. I still can't believe there were two openings.

BTW, good rolls to you in your match against Motor Molly!

Barbara

Wally_in_Cincy
02-27-2004, 08:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Thanks for the clarification about the byes, Sarah. I still can't believe there were two openings.

BTW, good rolls to you in your match against Motor Molly!

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

the website is not up to date

Melissa Herndon def. Nikki Benish 9-6 and Sueyen Rhee

Sarah Rousey def. Melissa Morris 9-2 and Julie Kelly 9-6

Wally~~detective

Fred Agnir
02-27-2004, 08:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr>
And answer me this, since I don't have my bye chart handy right now. In a 64-player field the two byes are at 22 and 58? I would've thought they'd be at 32 and 64.

http://www.wpba.com/cms/?pid=1003494<hr /></blockquote>In a 64 player field with 2 byes, the byes don't have to go into any place specific as long as there is one in each half of the draw. If you make a bye chart, the organization is easier if you place the two byes in the same relative position of their respective half. That is, for organization's sake, if the first bye is the first position of the first half, then the second bye should be the first position of the second half.

If anyone wants a copy, I have made a bye chart list for 8, 16, and 32 players. The expansion to 64 players is easy, but tedious and page consuming.

Fred

Barbara
02-27-2004, 09:05 AM
Well you see Fred, here's the funny apart about the bye chart. I got it from the WPBA in my Regional Tour Coordinators Handbook. And it charts byes for up to a 512-player chart.

Now if the WPBA wants me to follow this chart, why don't they?

Barbara

jjinfla
02-27-2004, 11:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Well you see Fred, here's the funny apart about the bye chart. I got it from the WPBA in my Regional Tour Coordinators Handbook. And it charts byes for up to a 512-player chart.

Barbara,

How would we know? I suggest you e-mail your player rep at the WPBA and ask her.

Sometimes the easiest solutions are the best - unless you enjoy chasing zebras.

Jake

Now if the WPBA wants me to follow this chart, why don't they?

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

SRpool
02-27-2004, 11:53 AM
Well, Barbara I guess I could be wrong but at the meeting I know they said they were making sure one was in the top and one in the bottom and I thought it was random. With the seeding who knows. But hey, there are four happy people who caught those byes...Ellie Chang is one of them. I'm suprised there are open spots too. I wish there weren't. Hopefully things are straightened out next tournament. I'm not sure why some people opted to not come here. It is a great place for the tournament and also the cheapest tournament of the year. I hope everything is ok for the people who couldn't make it.

Sarah

CarolNYC
03-02-2004, 04:10 AM
Hey Barb,
Considering the number of players from the NE-how could we NOT draw one another,ha ha ha!Thats just expected,girl!
I'd like to congratulate Jeanne Seaver and Angel Paglia-they both got their TP status-way to go!
I'll tell ya Barb, there was some nail-biting matches going on,Man! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Carol~will see you this weekend!