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View Full Version : epoxy glass pin joint



justbrake
02-28-2004, 07:25 PM
anyone own one,or tried one (with a epoxy glass pin joint)how dose it hit!

Frank_Glenn
02-28-2004, 07:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote justbrake:</font><hr> anyone own one,or tried one (with a epoxy glass pin joint)how dose it hit! <hr /></blockquote>

I shot some balls with one. Really nice looking cue. I did not like the way it played. (sorry, but that's my final answer)

justbrake
02-28-2004, 07:30 PM
ok did it have a weak hit,was it balanced , what make was it.

Frank_Glenn
02-28-2004, 08:27 PM
Cognocenti (spelling?). It was very pretty, but too much deflection (squirt) for my taste.

Scott Lee
02-28-2004, 08:45 PM
In my opinion, the epoxy joint screw is what makes the premium hit, consistent with Cognoscenti cues. I think they are one of the sweetest hitting cues made today, and most poolplayers who have played with one agree.

Scott Lee

justbrake
02-28-2004, 08:52 PM
I just seen a custom balabushka on ebay with the epoxy pin and was just imaging what the hit would be like especialy without a weighted joint pin it has to be alot lighter and probably more evenly balanced then other cues

JPB
02-28-2004, 11:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote justbrake:</font><hr> I just seen a custom balabushka on ebay with the epoxy pin and was just imaging what the hit would be like especialy without a weighted joint pin it has to be alot lighter and probably more evenly balanced then other cues <hr /></blockquote>

Should be. I have not hit w/ a glass pin. My cues have a much more advanced joint pin material. It is so revolutionary only a few American cue makers use it. It takes some work to make a joint pin out of this revolutionary material, but the result is something light and strong that transfers the feel of the hit. The material: wood.

A wood joint as in a carom cue takes care of a lot of the problems with joints. The cue balances better, it is strong, and the feel is there. Try going back in time to get a more advanced cue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Popcorn
02-29-2004, 10:15 AM
quote
"A wood joint as in a carom cue takes care of a lot of the problems with joints."

What are these problems?

quote

"The cue balances better, it is strong, and the feel is there."

What does that mean?

I can't really condemn or indorse any joint used today, they all serve their purpose very well. I only know what I like and that is more a personal preference.

JPB
02-29-2004, 12:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> quote
"A wood joint as in a carom cue takes care of a lot of the problems with joints."

What are these problems?

quote

"The cue balances better, it is strong, and the feel is there."

What does that mean?

I can't really condemn or indorse any joint used today, they all serve their purpose very well. I only know what I like and that is more a personal preference.

<hr /></blockquote>

Well, one problem is that joints add a lot of weight. Some cuemakers are mitigating this with newer materials. A traditional metal joint adds a bunch of weight in the middle of the cue affecting the balance. I have a "wood to wood" joint with a metal collar on one cue and it is just terrible. The balance is horrible, the hit is horrible. You can feel all the weight of the joint there. The metal pin is skinny too, which might cause some loss of feel and be more flexible overall. You want something light and solid. Different cuemakers tackle the problem differently, some don't address the problem. I think titanium has a good future in joints because of its weight, but I have not hit with a Ti joint.

All I know is that my wood joint cues balance better, hit solid, and have more feel than the various pool cues I have or have had. I might start buying a lot of cues so I can compare better, but there are all kinds of advantages. People resist the idea because it is unusual. But sometimes they change their mind after hitting with one.

if I meet you, maybe I'll let you hit a couple with various shafts and you can see the difference. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I play bad, but I do it with a great feeling cue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Cueless Joey
02-29-2004, 01:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JPB:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> quote
"A wood joint as in a carom cue takes care of a lot of the problems with joints."

What are these problems?

quote

"The cue balances better, it is strong, and the feel is there."

What does that mean?

I can't really condemn or indorse any joint used today, they all serve their purpose very well. I only know what I like and that is more a personal preference.

<hr /></blockquote>

Well, one problem is that joints add a lot of weight. Some cuemakers are mitigating this with newer materials. A traditional metal joint adds a bunch of weight in the middle of the cue affecting the balance. I have a "wood to wood" joint with a metal collar on one cue and it is just terrible. The balance is horrible, the hit is horrible. You can feel all the weight of the joint there. The metal pin is skinny too, which might cause some loss of feel and be more flexible overall. You want something light and solid. Different cuemakers tackle the problem differently, some don't address the problem. I think titanium has a good future in joints because of its weight, but I have not hit with a Ti joint.

All I know is that my wood joint cues balance better, hit solid, and have more feel than the various pool cues I have or have had. I might start buying a lot of cues so I can compare better, but there are all kinds of advantages. People resist the idea because it is unusual. But sometimes they change their mind after hitting with one.

if I meet you, maybe I'll let you hit a couple with various shafts and you can see the difference. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I play bad, but I do it with a great feeling cue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>
Problem with wood screws is that wood expands. Any abrupt exposure to high humidity can cause the wood to expand.
A metal pin adds about 1.2 OZ of weight in the from. Titanium, aluminun and G10 knocks it down to about a third of that.
I think any insertless pin, as long as they are tight and flush, is good enough. Acme type pins and radial pins allow for better grip and stay tighter longer than the usual 3/8 10 imo.
How the handle is joined with the forearm ( A-joint) imo is more important. If a cue has a 3/8 stud in there ( most cues do), some of the cue's reasonance is killed. Worse, since wood and metal contract at different rates, a buzzing or rattle in this area will result once that metal stud is no longer totally flush with the cavity/threads in that area.
Most billiard cues use big wood screw but Schuler has been using 5/16 14 pin and aluminum collar for years and is very successful at it.

JPB
02-29-2004, 01:59 PM
<hr /></blockquote>
Problem with wood screws is that wood expands. Any abrupt exposure to high humidity can cause the wood to expand.
A metal pin adds about 1.2 OZ of weight in the from. Titanium, aluminun and G10 knocks it down to about a third of that.
I think any insertless pin, as long as they are tight and flush, is good enough. Acme type pins and radial pins allow for better grip and stay tighter longer than the usual 3/8 10 imo.
How the handle is joined with the forearm ( A-joint) imo is more important. If a cue has a 3/8 stud in there ( most cues do), some of the cue's reasonance is killed. Worse, since wood and metal contract at different rates, a buzzing or rattle in this area will result once that metal stud is no longer totally flush with the cavity/threads in that area.
Most billiard cues use big wood screw but Schuler has been using 5/16 14 pin and aluminum collar for years and is very successful at it. <hr /></blockquote>

The schuler joint is a good joint. It is strong and solid. There is a good transfer of feel with all the wood to wood contact. A hard "bright" hit. I like them. I prefer my wood joints tho. Schuler is better than many others IMO however.

I have not noticed problems with my wood screws. Perhaps I will some day. As you say though, any cue with metal in it has the problem of expansion and things working loose. I don't think my wood joint stuff has any metal except the screw in the bumper. I think the handle is attached w/ wood joints. The overall feel is better than the schuler I have IMO. The schuler I have is the best production cue I have owned. A very good stick. Ugly but good. It won't see all that much play. Something to use when I want something production I don't care about getting damaged or stolen. Or if I just want a little different feel for no good reason. Good cue tho. Clearly better than most production cues I have hit with.

Popcorn
02-29-2004, 02:40 PM
I played with a wood screw cue 30 years ago and I liked it. A lot of billiard players play with a light cue 17, 17.5 ounces so the cue may feel better. For pool though you need a little heavier cue and you also, most players prefer a more front balanced cue. A 19 ounce cue with a wood screw is often too but heavy for most players. It is not necessarily a bad thing to have some weight added to the forward part of the cue. If it is a short splice butt, even with a wood screw, I bet it has had weight added forward. It is just a matter of preference, terms like best or better, are subjective terms as they apply to cues. If there was in fact a "Best joint" customer damned would dictate all the cue makers use the same joint, they would have no choice. If you look, most all cue makers make a 6 point hi-low model. Not because it is a better design, but because it is a copy of the very popular Southwest design and the customer wants it. The joint is only one element of the cue and it may even be one of the most minor factors in the overall play of the cue. If you have a cue that is absolute horrible and un-playable, I doubt it is all due to the joint. The mechanical demands of a cue joint are not very high, evidenced by the fact that it can be held together with nothing more then a wooden screw and work fine. The wood screw does do one thing that is very different in that, being turned directly on the shaft, when screwed into the butt the shaft is more integrated into the butt then with something like a flat faced joint. Most all well made joints though should produce a solid hit.

JPB
02-29-2004, 04:46 PM
A 19 oz wood screw cue isn't too butt heavy, or shouldn't be. Mine isn't. Also, forward balance has some problems that aren't all personal preference. I do want to hit with an Omen or something though that is forward balanced to compare it to what I am using. The cues I have w/ a more forward balance stink.

I will be in Las Vegas in a month tho, and am thinking of making an appointment and getting on the southwest list. Maybe in 7 years I will change my mind. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

daviddjmp
02-29-2004, 05:36 PM
I have a Richard Chudy cue with a G-10 pin. It is lighter than steel or Titanium, and probably the closest thing to wood out there in weight and feel. The cue hits extremely solidly, is balanced the way I asked it to be (more towards the butt) and is beautiful as well. I also have a Capone with a Titanium pin, and I had it made essentially to the same specs as the Chudy. Also hits like a dream, slightly more forward-balanced, perhaps an inch. I played back and forth all day with them today and I can't decide which I like more, they both hit great-

stlshooter
03-01-2004, 07:22 AM
I insist on the G-10 glass epoxy joint pin and have used this for joint collars and ferrules. The performance characteristics are great however the ferrules have a translucent green tint which does not contrast well between the cueball, tip, and the ferrule. Concerned about the longterm strength my cue builder, Mike Durbin, tried to destroy one and finally the wood broke before the glass epoxy pin, he said the strength matched lower grade steel.I am completely sold on this material and as a tall player with an overlength cue it does not need to be counterbalanced with more steel near the end to bring a good balance to the cues.

RUNaRAK
03-01-2004, 08:05 AM
Back to the original question.. I shoot with a Cognoscenti with the Glass Epoxy Pin? I absolutely love the feel. For me, the best feel of any cue that I have owned and I have owned many.. Southewest, Kersh.., Harris, Predator, Black, Olivier and many others.
Not knocking any of the other makers but I truly love my cue. I do not notice any more deflection in my cue than the others as Frank does?? It just has a superb feel and the cue ball responds very well to the cue.
Just posting with my opinions and observations and I have owned 2 different Cog's and they both play great.
I could not recommend a better feeling/hitting cue. IMHO.

Good Luck! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Frank_Glenn
03-01-2004, 08:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RUNaRAK:</font><hr> I do not notice any more deflection in my cue than the others as Frank does?? It just has a superb feel and the cue ball responds very well to the cue.
<hr /></blockquote>

I don't think the pin had anything to do with the squirt. This was a used cue taken in on trade. For all I know, the ferrule was not original. I just didn't like the way it played (or better put, the way I played using it). It was pretty, though.

Popcorn
03-01-2004, 09:58 AM
He may be overstating it's strength a little. It is much more flexible and less malleable then steel and can be fractured and broken. Much of the strength comes from the continuous glass woven base and once you cut threads into it, you have defeated the strength properties and are now depending on the resin base for the strength in the threads. With the reduced root diameter it may be subject to some tork (sp?) as well when you tighten the cue. It would have to weaken over time, (I have seen some break off). Having said all that, it would not be difficult to repair and other parts of the cue are expendable such as the ferrule, wrap, finish, tip, etc. The play of the cue would be more important to me then if a part may ware out. It may even be a good idea to get an extra screw for the future from the cue maker in case something happens and the cue maker is not around to fix it, another cue maker could do the job. Just an idea.

Cueless Joey
03-01-2004, 10:36 AM
He is.
G10 pin can broken easily by mounting it on a vise and slapping the side with your hand.
It looks nice but it has nothing to do with the hit of a cue imo. Once a cue is tightly joined, does the cue know if you have a 3/8 titanium or G10 or aluminum?

Popcorn
03-01-2004, 12:08 PM
I agree, it may be the least important factor to the play of a cue, if it is a factor at all. I doubt anyone could tell the differance if a cue is assembled, what kind of screw it has. I would bet real high on that.

Rod
03-01-2004, 12:38 PM
I agree, I'd bet they couldn't either. It seems to me why have something so fragile when the small weight difference makes little to no difference.

Rod

justbrake
03-01-2004, 07:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I agree, it may be the least important factor to the play of a cue, if it is a factor at all. I doubt anyone could tell the differance if a cue is assembled, what kind of screw it has. I would bet real high on that. <hr /></blockquote>

I doubt anyone could tell the differance if a cue is assembled, what kind of screw it has. I would bet real high on that. <hr /></blockquote>

I think your wrong on that you might not know what joint your shooting with but imo every joint has a different feeling thats why they make different joints! not just to hold a cue together but for the feel of the cue, the hit,the balance, the sound of the hit,the weight difference (distributed),etc.

Popcorn
03-01-2004, 08:04 PM
I agree, I was really referring to joints of the same design. Whether 3/8x10, radial, SW style, G10, acme or what ever, I don't think you could tell.

Cueless Joey
03-01-2004, 09:17 PM
As far as the collars, yes.
As far as the joint pin, you can't tell whether the cue has a 3/8 10,11, radial, titanium,brass or G10.

BLACKHEART
03-02-2004, 10:17 AM
Here we go again,comparing apples &amp; oranges. If you can find ONE Qmaker who makes Qs with the same taper &amp; balance point &amp; with all of the combinations of joint screws &amp; joint collar materials, as well as all of the combinations of ferrule materials......THEN you can compare. To say that you played with a Joe Gold Q that had a G-10 joint screw &amp; then compare that with any other makers Q is unjust. It's like driving a big heavy Lincoln &amp; a Toyota &amp; saying that the TIRES on the Lincoln give a better ride than those on the Toyota...JER

Chris Cass
03-02-2004, 10:26 AM
I don't know about that. Jamie Baracks broke one. I think it was in a Peachouar(sp). BTW, tell Mike I like the cue he made for Chad. It looks nice and he likes it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.

piglit
03-03-2004, 07:20 AM
I have a g-10 cue and it plays so good...Within 2 months, I sold both my other cues and had the maker make me a 2nd shaft for the g-10.

My opinion is: Any material that can perform the function required of the pinb will be subject to certain standards of strength, malleability(sp!?), etc...Those properties/ abilities would be similar, thus, I agree that the actual pin material plays a minimal role in determining feel of hit.

That said, the cue I have now is my favorite of all time, and has the g-10.

-pigi

BLACKHEART
03-03-2004, 11:33 PM
BUT, how do you know it's not the TAPER of your new Q &amp; not the joint screw at all????????????...JER

Cueless Joey
03-03-2004, 11:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> BUT, how do you know it's not the TAPER of your new Q &amp; not the joint screw at all????????????...JER <hr /></blockquote>
Or the wood ?
Are you sure you don't wanna switch to a radial G10 pin anytime soon? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

piglit
03-04-2004, 06:50 AM
Joey, you're clueless (couldn't resist/ lol!)

InI thought that me post was clear re: I don't think that the actual pin material is the cause for my liking the cue!

For the record, InI do think it is the shaft that makes InI like it...
-pigy

Cueless Joey
03-04-2004, 09:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote piglit:</font><hr> Joey, you're clueless (couldn't resist/ lol!)

InI thought that me post was clear re: I don't think that the actual pin material is the cause for my liking the cue!

For the record, InI do think it is the shaft that makes InI like it...
-pigy <hr /></blockquote>I'm also far-sighted. grin:
When one likes a cue, it's the sum of all parts. The butt, the weight, balance, shaft, hit, etc, imo.

newo9277
01-29-2005, 02:02 PM
Does anyone know where i can buy g-10 pins?

Popcorn
01-29-2005, 02:34 PM
I'm not sure but I would think most cue makers make them in-shop. Thats what I would do, it shouldn't be too hard.

Cueless Joey
01-29-2005, 03:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I'm not sure but I would think most cue makers make them in-shop. Thats what I would do, it shouldn't be too hard. <hr /></blockquote>
They dull tool cutters very fast.
TNScues.com sells 'em.