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bluey2king
03-02-2004, 01:05 PM
I need a little help with my draw. Maybe some of you have had simalar problem. I can draw pretty good at home but when I get to leauge it just dies I usually end up with a stop shot. I should have this down by now and it should be a arrow in my quiver but instead it comes out like a shot in the dark to what will happen. I have studied Byrnes tape 1 about keeping the cue level and hitting low and following thru. It seems that I need to hit it hard to get the backspin I want I see others get good draw without a hard stroke. Any tips to pratice? to get me over this Hump in my game. Also any tips on controling the draw angle?? It seems that I lose focus on the object ball (not making it)and over focus on my draw stroke.
Thanks you guys have been Very Helpfull in the past.

bigshooter
03-02-2004, 01:20 PM
Hitting it hard is not the answer, the saying I always us is "the lower the slower" in other words its all in the stroke and follow through not in how hard you hit.
Concentrate on hitting it softer but with a lot more stroke, put an object ball about 18" in front of the C.B. and stroke your cue all the way through like your trying to hit through the cue ball and hit the object ball with the tip of your cue.
Keep your head down and stay down on the shot for several seconds after you hit it, don't worry about the cue ball drawing back and hitting your cue right now, just stay down on the shot and keep the cue tip and your hand in the same position.
This is obviously an exaggerated stroke but it will give you a feel of what a long slow stroke should feel like.
The other factors may just be the equipment where you play, different cloth, heavier C.B. etc.
Especially if your playing bar tables the C.B. can vary considerably in weight, maybe you should practice a little out of your home environment.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-02-2004, 01:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluey2king:</font><hr> I need a little help with my draw. Maybe some of you have had simalar problem. I can draw pretty good at home but when I get to leauge it just dies I usually end up with a stop shot. ... <hr /></blockquote>

As bigshooter (from this point forward I recommend giving him the nickname of "bull penis" /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) stated, the bar table ball can be quite a bit heavier, making it harder to draw.

We played at a joint one night with a heavy ball and nasty old cloth. You literally could not draw the ball from more than 8" away. It was kinda funny really.

aajourney
03-02-2004, 02:39 PM
Not sure this is good advise or not, just know it works for me.

Don't worry about getting absolutely level with the cue. If the but end is up a few inches from the cloth it is ideal for me. Just make sure you hit very low on the CB with a smooth a stroke as possible.

When the butt end is slightly elevated and you hit very low on the CB, the CB jumps slightly on the way to the object ball. Therefore, there is less friction.

I don't recommend this on a very long draw shot because if you don't hit the CB exactly in the center, it will curve one way or the other and you will probably miss.

I figured this out by accident when I was kida shooting over a ball durring a drill I do and put a ton of draw on a shot with the butt elevated probably about a foot.

Like I said before, not sure if this is good advise or not.

Mark

WaltVA
03-02-2004, 02:44 PM
Bigshooter's advice was right on, IMO. Low with an exaggerated stroke/follow thru 'till it gets reliable.

Try to visualize your cue tip pushing the bottom of the CB ahead of the top until it's spinning backwards. And don't forget to chalk on every shot.

Walt in VA

Rod
03-02-2004, 02:45 PM
As mentioned all tables, cloth, balls, rails, etc are not created equal. It pays to know what your playing on or with. Some tables, like valley have a heavier c/b. It's not hard to draw but combine that with dirty balls, cloth, humidity and it does make the ball harder to draw. Try to leave angles where you can use follow more and less draw.

I'll assume that the equipment isn't that bad because you said some others draw the ball fairly easy. As a drill at first set up shots where the o/b and c/b are a foot apart, then gradually increase the distance.

To have a good draw stroke, or most any stroke, you can't choke the chicken. In other words keep your grip light at the start of the back swing and continue that "same" light pressure on the forward swing through the follow-thru.

What happens is people have the tendency to tighten up either when they start forward or as their about to strike the c/b. Many times that changes where the cue tip actually strikes the c/b. To be accurate or draw well it is imperative that the grip stays consistent and you strike the c/b exactly as intended.

You either lift up and hit to low and miscue. From what you say, it sounds like you could be dropping your elbow which causes the tip to rise. All of this can be traced back to poor fundamentals, the grip pressure in this case. The low and slow as mentioned is a good idea to help your stroke. When that ole grip gets to tight it creates a jerky motion and causes a poor hit on the c/b. Remember tense/tight muscles reduce speed and relaxed muscles increase speed.

You can practice exagerating the follow through if you choose but good fundamentals, relaxed grip and arm, sends the cue through the c/b without the need for any forced motion. It happens naturally.

~~~ Rod, my two bits

Sid_Vicious
03-02-2004, 02:58 PM
"When the butt end is slightly elevated and you hit very low on the CB, the CB jumps slightly on the way to the object ball. Therefore, there is less friction.

I don't recommend this on a very long draw shot because if you don't hit the CB exactly in the center, it will curve one way or the other and you will probably miss."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A fine player I know elevates on table length draw shots, and doesn't extend the stroke, actually he chops his stroke and gets about the best full table accuracy and draw on the rock as anyone I know! All of the suggestions so far have mostly, if not all, contradicted this method. This guy's stroke on all other length draw shots are textbook "low, slow, and follow thru" strokes though....sid~~~all rules must be made to be broken

Fred Agnir
03-02-2004, 03:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote aajourney:</font><hr>

Don't worry about getting absolutely level with the cue. If the but end is up a few inches from the cloth it is ideal for me.

When the butt end is slightly elevated and you hit very low on the CB, the CB jumps slightly on the way to the object ball. Therefore, there is less friction.<hr /></blockquote>Although I've been recommending slight elevation for draw for years on the internet, I'm not sure that the jumping cueball/less friction theory is really the cause of the better draw that many experience (though I believed it at one point). I think moreso the elevated grip hand is simply a more natural position for the body to execute a stroke. I.e., I believe it is more ergonomically correct to have a slight elevation on the stick.

Fred &lt;~~~ doesn't believe in "level"

Popcorn
03-02-2004, 03:29 PM
I would have to see a slow motion look at the shot. I have a feeling he may use a swooping sort of stroke that actually when it hits the cue ball is more level then it looks.

Cueless Joey
03-02-2004, 03:35 PM
I like holding further down the cue, almost at the bottom, if I really have to power draw.
Regular draw just requires "throwing" the cue.

Popcorn
03-02-2004, 03:37 PM
Sometimes you have to accept the conditions and adapt to them. I have played a lot of bar pool back when the balls were never clean and cue balls were all big and heave. You rarely tried to draw the ball, you had to develop a game where you went forward most of the time.

Sid_Vicious
03-02-2004, 03:40 PM
The most expressive representative of the shot for this guy is when the CB is 1-1.5 ball-widths from the end rail. I couldn't find much of a way to see a possible swoop during that position. It's a style I've tried to disect and never was able to grasp...sid

#### leonard
03-02-2004, 06:40 PM
Sid I always drew the cue back as fast as I hit the shot. It would snap back to fast if I didn't.####

Ralph S.
03-02-2004, 07:19 PM
How do you grip the cue? Do you use your entire hand with all four fingers wrapped around the butt? I experienced the same problem recently and realized I needed to relax my grip. I started going to a grip of just three fingers and my thumb, and all of sudden whitey became very lively again. I think your problem is the grip is too tight or you are trying to muscle the cb.

Sid_Vicious
03-02-2004, 08:09 PM
You may have given me something there ####. Thanks, Sid

PQQLK9
03-02-2004, 08:48 PM
Hit low, ACCELERATE, follow through.

Sid_Vicious
03-02-2004, 09:07 PM
Nick...Don't mean to be arguementative, but there's a bunch of subtleties that can and will stunt the success of a draw stroke which enter into those three segments you mentioned. Really, the word accellerate has an entire array of ways to hose up a draw shot it hurts to think about it, and the follow through is a matter of proper timing, depending mostly on the lengths to the OB and of the intended draw distance of the CB. Lot's of little details to adjust to. Jm2c...sid

rocky
03-03-2004, 08:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PQQLK9:</font><hr> Hit low, ACCELERATE, follow through.
<hr /></blockquote>
Nick hit the nail on the head i know players that angle there cue I use a level stroke, i think the big key to draw is to accelerate through the ball. This causes the ball to break free from the cloth and spin more rapidly with less power.

bluey2king
03-03-2004, 08:55 AM
I want to Thank all of you for Your advice and pointers!! I worked on this last night! I did well on my table I will test it again at the ph. The tip that hit home the most was relax I think I was tighting up with a super firm bridge grip (I use a glove) and maybe I was droping my elbow too. I used my Jim Rempe target cueball chalked up every stroke and started slow not caring about making any shot just getting low and following through. Also I losened my grip kept it the same just not so tight. This really helped!! I still need lots of reps so I can do this and count on it. Thanks!! This forum HELPED a lot!! I will let you guys know how it goes!!
Bill /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Rod
03-03-2004, 12:36 PM
Glad we could help. You'll just have to work at this until it becomes more natural. It takes the brain time to adjust from old ways,(tighten up and hit) but it will because it knows what works and what doesn't. Good luck

Rod

sidepocketsam
03-03-2004, 05:07 PM
A few years, I too found that loosening my grip helped me get the intended english on the ball. I evaluated to myself why this was happening and I came up with theory. Was wondering if someone could verify if I'm correct or not.

My theory is that tightening your grip, also locks your wrist into place. When this happens, you tend to have a pendulum swing. So with Wrist locked, your tip would be point downword on the backswing and tend to be point upward slightly on contact.

When loosening the grip and subsequently unlocking the wrist. Gravity tends to keep the wrist in the proper position. On the forward stroke, your hand and fingers are angled backwards,or behind your wrist, which tends to keep the tip point downward through the stroke.

I believe this to be the point. Wrist needs to be unlocked to let gravity do the work and there's no way to have a tight grip and an unlocked wrist.

Anybody care to confirm or shoot down this theory?

pooltchr
03-04-2004, 07:53 AM
You are correct on that one. Some instructors call this the Harley Davidson grip. If you hold the cue like the throttle on a bike, the tip of the cue will end up pointing up in the air. This is great instant feedback to let you know if your grip is too tight, not only on draw shots, but on all your shots.

Bob_Jewett
03-04-2004, 11:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sidepocketsam:</font><hr> A few years, I too found that loosening my grip helped me get the intended english on the ball. ...
Anybody care to confirm or shoot down this theory? <hr /></blockquote>

Of course to diagnose your particular mechanics, we would have to see your cue action, but it's quite possible that a very tight grip changes your swing and you don't hit where you want on the cue ball. It is also possible to hit the cue ball low and hard with a very tight grip, but I think it is much less consistent and a lot harder to maintain.