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View Full Version : Slop should not count, in ANY Pool game



04-24-2002, 05:45 PM
http://www.azbilliards.com/maxeberle/max2.cfm

I agree with just about everything Max says. I don't think slop should count in any Pool game. If you don't make the shot you intend, you should sit back down. If you accidentaly safe someone, they should be able to make you shoot again. Grady Matthews did this in his 9-ball tournaments for a while. You could still have 2-way shots, by calling them ("Two way, 4 in the corner, or safe.")

I really think it diminishes the game of 9-ball for people to see the best players in the world luck a shot in (it happens to everyone), and then get to keep shooting.

Cueless Joey
04-24-2002, 06:41 PM
That'll complicate the game even more. Imagine all the arguing that would result from this? Are going to have interpreters for those who don't speak English? How about the deaf?
Luck is part of any sport. If a ball takes a bad hop on the shortstop, should they replay it?

Tom_In_Cincy
04-24-2002, 08:45 PM
I would suggest you take up 14.1 and play nothing else.. this game eliminates alot of your problems.

Just remember.. when someone calls a ball and the pocket its going to go into.. you don't have the right to ask HOW.. just watch.. its the only thing required.

Have more fun.. than ever.. 14.1 is a great game.

bigalerickson
04-24-2002, 09:59 PM
There is a reason there are so many different pool games around, because everyone has different taste. I reccomend to anyone to find theres and stick with it. So, clearly, if one thinks any slop shot should not be counted, they should certainly not play 9 ball, maybe check out 7 ball.

It ultimately boils down to an old saying, luck is not found, it is earned.

Rich R.
04-25-2002, 05:06 AM
Max Eberle's example is very poor. He is comparing two totally different games and his is using an outrageous situation.
In his example, he has a golfer playing on the 17th hole and putting the ball in the 14th hole. Obviously, that is not a legal shot and the golfer would not win. I guarantee you, if Tiger Woods or any other golfer, in that situation, hit that branch and the ball rolled into the 17th hole, they would take the shot and the win.
In pool, assuming we are discussing 9-ball, their are six legal pockets on the table. Since the rules do not require calling a pocket, if you make a legal hit and put a ball in any of those six pockets, it counts.
To equate 9-ball to Max Eberle's example, a player would have to jump the cue ball off his table, onto an ajoining table and pocket the appropriate ball. This situation is just as ludicrous as Max's example.
I have never seen a sport of any kind, in which luck did not play a roll (no pun intended). Why should he think pool should be any different.
JMHO. Rich R.

cheesemouse
04-25-2002, 06:07 AM
I just want to be able to take my best shot within the rules of the game. If your refering to nineball/slop it is one of your goals when playing safe to take all your opponents options away and a hope shot/slop shot is all he has left; sometimes they go. Other than that situation backfiring on you most players would love to be playing an opponent who's game relies on luck or slop. Slop is life. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

04-25-2002, 07:37 AM

JimS
04-25-2002, 08:05 AM
Not that it matters, because it won't change anything, but I agree with you Mike. Pool is a precision game and ONLY precision should be rewarded.

PoolFan
04-25-2002, 08:44 AM
I understand your point of view. But luck is not limited to pocketing balls in an uncalled pocket. Players can get lucky by playing a shot and lucking a safety. What rule changes do you make here.

If you don't like slop shots, go ahead and play called shot 9-ball. Who's stopping you?

Like many posts here mention, you can not take luck out of the game completely.

As for your comment about the best players in the world getting lucky. Very seldom do you see a Pro pocket a ball in an unintentional pocket. Yes, it does happen at times, but I do not believe that it diminishes the game at that level.

04-25-2002, 10:21 AM
I do play 14.1. Often.

04-25-2002, 10:26 AM
I didn't take any offense at your post, Whitewolf. I certainly don't take it personally. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

So please don't take offense to this or take it personally...

Most of the good players I know,including most of the pro's that I know personally (and I know lots of them) agree with me and Max. The point of view you espoused is...well...the point of view of the typical ball-banger who doesn't have the knowledge and skill to consistently and frequently get out in 9-ball. It feels good to suddenly come up with a freak win here and there.

But I find that people with the ability to frequently get out by making the shots they want to make tend to agree with me on this point.

04-25-2002, 10:27 AM
Of course luck plays a roll in any sport. But there are different degrees. I just think there is too much luck in 9-ball, and that a couple of minor changes would make it a better game.

04-25-2002, 10:29 AM
The discussion isn't about how I play 9-ball. The discussion is about the rules used at virtually all 9-ball tournaments. I can do whatever I want in my spare time, but that's not what we are discussing.

Cueless Joey
04-25-2002, 10:33 AM
I have my own "solution" to slop 9-ball when I'm gambling against a known slopper. I tell them we are playing for the last ball. It doesn' matter if you pocket the 9 while there still balls in the table. We keep going. If 9 goes in while the 8 ball is still in the pocket, shooter keeps shooting. At the end of shooter's inning, we take out the 9 ball off the pocket and replace the 8 ball with it.
Of course, the sloppers have never liked my proposition.
I guess I invented LAST Ball 9-Ball.

cheesemouse
04-25-2002, 11:02 AM
This slop>luck>good fortune>chance thing has been argued and sparred over many times about the game of 9-ball. The high road seems to be "I'm really a fine player and I can't stand it when some mutt beats me with a slop shot. I think the rules should be change because...blah blah blah...." All I can say is "can't help ya out partner". The cheese can run'm and does so when they are there but look out if given'm a ride is his best shot cause he will pull the trigger on a flock shot in a hot second. let'er buck Powder River. For those of you who live in the city this is what rodeo cowboys say to the guy holding the gate that lets the bucking bronco loose.

04-25-2002, 11:08 AM
Wow, rodeo! I haven't seen one of those in a LONG time. Used to go watch them when I was a kid, living in Virginia. They had one every year at the State Fair. I used to go watch the tractor pulls, too! /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

cheesemouse
04-25-2002, 11:18 AM
what's a tractor pull??? For those of us who have never been to one.

04-25-2002, 11:24 AM
You have this long, dirt track, and a big sled-looking thing with a lot of weight on it.

You attach a custom-made vehicle to it. These things are made just for these competitions. There are different weight classes.

You start pulling the sled down the dirt track. As you go, the weight on the sled starts moving forard, putting more weight directly on the rear of the "tractor" being used to pull it.

The goal is to see who can pull the fastest.

Some of these vehicles are extreme. Like 15,000 horsepower. Yes, that was FIFTEEN THOUSAND horsepower!

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=tractor+pull

cheesemouse
04-25-2002, 11:28 AM
Sounds like farmer NASCAR. I'll bet the tractor drivers make more money than the best pro pool players?? No joke!

04-25-2002, 11:40 AM

04-25-2002, 11:51 AM
I think 9 ball would be a better game if the nine had to be made "in turn". As is the case even in 8 ball, even though there are many variations of the 8 ball rules one common to all is regarding the pocketing of the 8 ball.

04-25-2002, 11:57 AM
Hi Whitewolf!

Yeah, I am sure we are talking about two different groups entirely.

And for the record, for the Pool halls I frequent and the Pool players I am usually around, they usually say the same thing I do on this subject. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif But we're talking here about people that you see in the magazines and on TV, or about gamblers who will play $5000 sets. (Yes, I have sat in a Pool hall here in Seattle and watched a local player and another non-famous player I know from out of town play a $5000 set of 9-ball. You think these guys want luck involved?) /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

cheesemouse
04-25-2002, 01:03 PM
Mike,
My question is did they negotiate 'no slop' into the match????

PoolFan
04-25-2002, 01:25 PM
I make one comment about you playing called 9-ball and I'm a forum deviant for not following the intended discussion. I'm sure that's the first time that has ever happened in this or any forum.

I believe the rest of my response followed the intended topic. Relax.

MikeM
04-25-2002, 01:30 PM
Sure they do....as long as it's on their side!

MikeM
04-25-2002, 01:48 PM
Of course they agree Mike, because luck levels the playing field and lessens their advantage. I read Max Eberle's rant and it's quite ridiculous. What he doesn't point out is that in many golf matches you'll see a player's approach shot come in too hot and hit the flag and stop a few feet from the cup. Total luck, a misplayed shot ending up being advantageous. Should they place their ball off the back of the green? Of course not.

Nine ball is what it is. The game can end on any shot, that's part of what makes it fun. Occasionally a less skilled player will beat a better one due to luck. But over time the more highly skilled players will win more often. Luck is part of all sports and should remain so. Even the best players will have luck on their side and profit it from it.

MM

stickman
04-25-2002, 02:32 PM
Actually, it's who can pull it the farthest, ground speed does figure into that however. If several pull it the full distance, I think it's 300 feet, then they load the sled up heavier and repull, or have a pulloff. They probably do make more money than the top pro pool players, but they have more expense. Blow one of those beasts up, and it's not like putting a new tip on your cue. I took pictures of one here at our county fair. He bought some from me. He told me that he was on the road from spring through fall, hitting every pull he could. He spent the winter doing R&D and building. You're right, kinda like Farmer Nascar. LMAO

Some of these things have as many as 6 blown engines like top fuelers run.

Tom_In_Cincy
04-25-2002, 05:26 PM
I have seen lots of Pros play 9 ball, 14.1, One Pocket and 8 ball in major tournaments.

Slop comes into play less than making the 9 on the break, or running 4 or more racks.

When it does come into play.. the pros get so iritated its as if they have never heard of "sour grapes".. And to me.. that's what it is.. just "Sour Grapes"..

This game is about 'excellence' that can never be achieved.... Slop is just as much a part of the game as the cloth on the table.

I have never seen or heard of a player sloping in a ball and giving up the table because it wasn't a good shot..

Maybe its a West Coast or Seattle thing.. but here in the Mid West.. we just call it luck.. and anyone can get lucky.. the problem is, some of us are just plain luckier than others..

04-25-2002, 06:00 PM
Actually, at one time, 9-ball was played like that. It was whoever sank the last ball who was the winner. Jim R.

04-25-2002, 06:09 PM
You are apparently playing with the wrong class of players. Better players normally don't play slop shots. You are apparently playing with ball bangers. I would suggest you move up a couple of classes, where instead of worrying about slop you can worry about getting a shot. Jim R.

04-25-2002, 06:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> I would suggest you take up 14.1 and play nothing else.. this game eliminates alot of your problems.

Just remember.. when someone calls a ball and the pocket its going to go into.. you don't have the right to ask HOW.. just watch.. its the only thing required.
<hr></blockquote>

What a statement. After spending many minutes reading this thread, finally, someone seems to have some sense.
Great post.

I'm not Anonymous, I'm Cami and I have posted in this forum before.

04-25-2002, 07:53 PM
&lt;i&gt; partial snip:
Maybe its a West Coast or Seattle thing.. but here in the Mid West.. we just call it luck.. and anyone can get lucky.. the problem is, some of us are just plain luckier than others.. &lt;/i&gt;


I've often heard it said that the smarter someone is, the better someone is, or the more prepared someone is, the more lucky that someone is.

Barbara
04-25-2002, 08:05 PM
Tom,

If you want to hear an argument about how sloppy 9-ball is as opposed to how precise 14.1 is, mention it to Jimmy Caras. And be prepared to listen to a two+ hour diatribe/lecture on the subject! For me it was all day long! LOL! That's okay, it was music to my ears! Yeah, he gambled on 9-ball to put food on the table, but to prove your own worth, 14.1 was, and still is, the game. And I agree with Jimmy.

I really wish he was still up here to help mentor me with patterns. I don't know how to read patterns and I need help.

Barbara~~~not really that good at teaching myself....

Rod
04-25-2002, 08:28 PM
Luck is just part of the game. At the pro level it rarely happens. Luck is far more than just making a ball out of turn.

Troy
04-25-2002, 08:44 PM
Another variation, played in a very few tournaments, is "call 9-Ball" either in a combination or in rotation.

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: rmont:</font><hr> I think 9 ball would be a better game if the nine had to be made "in turn". As is the case even in 8 ball, even though there are many variations of the 8 ball rules one common to all is regarding the pocketing of the 8 ball. <hr></blockquote>

04-25-2002, 08:59 PM
Mike I'm glad you're acknowledging the importance of 2-way shots in 9 ball. The problem I think in calling them is that you're giving up your strategy to your opponent. I don't want my opponent to learn what I'm thinking when I'm shooting a 2-way. If they think I slopped a ball in or got a lucky safe, then IMO, let them think that. I think that's my right as a player to not have to divulge what's in my head when I'm competing against someone. I'm looking to win, not teach them what I know. Know what I mean?

So the trade-off with that is that slop counts, unfortunately. But it's worth it on a higher level.


Fran

stickman
04-25-2002, 09:00 PM
I don't mind if someone plays position for a good combo on the nine, or shoots a planned carom, or any other similar stategy. What is irratating to me is someone who just bangs at the nine hoping for it to fall in a pocket. I play a guy that does this and he gets lucky frequently. The really irratating thing about it is that he's good enough that he shouldn't have to play this way. If I'm left with no shot, of course I'll do this, but he does it on nearly every shot. If there's anyway possible to roll the nine, he will.

I don't mind if someone shoots for a pocket and it goes in another. It doesn't happen often enough to be a bother to me, and ocassionally I do it. I'll normally blush and go on. If it causes me to win a set, I'll apologize for the slop, but still take the money. /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

04-25-2002, 11:29 PM
I'd like to make a point here, while we're talking about slop. One-pocket is the game I play. I don't play it like the big boys, but I love it. It's the second-best thing you can do on a pool table.

When I get a chance to move two or more balls into my corner, and one happens to go in, that's a completely legitimate result and a common occurrence in one-hole. On many occasions we disturb a cluster of balls without knowing exactly where they will all stop. Often it is a calculated risk and it sometimes goes bad, but everybody is doing it. It's the way to play. That ain't slop.

Rod
04-26-2002, 12:03 AM
Good point vapros, I can just see someone telling Efren that a ball has to be spotted because he didn't call the shot!

PoolFan
04-26-2002, 09:19 AM
This is an excellent point!!

By having to call shots in this manner, takes some strategy away from you. If you play a two-way shot and your opponent thinks you just got lucky, one he/she is unestimating your game and two, that can offset his/her mental game.

I also agree that I don't need to be giving a free leason to my opponent for the sake of being a purist.

Kato
04-26-2002, 10:20 AM
I used to play a guy many moons ago (like 4 years), nine-ball a buck or two a game. He fired at 9's and stuff and for a month got incredibly lucky. Eventually I faded it and outran it, made my money back and a lot more. Luck only lasts so long and you will get your rolls eventually.

Kato~~~~very unlucky.

04-26-2002, 12:13 PM
I understand what you are saying but I don't like a game where you can win by making one ball following the break. Most of the combos on the 9 occur because of a lucky roll to start with. Also, I think the push-out should go, as it only has value if you are playing a beginner. Any good player will know what you know and take the correct action after your push-out IMO it is just a waste of time.

I watched a match that was hill-hill in a race to 11. It was hard fought and then, in playing a safe a ball rolled and stuck to the 9 leaving a straight in shot any one could make. A sad finish to a otherwise great match.

In 8 ball IMO those that opt for the second ball break are hoping to luck out by making the 8 ball. To me it is sad that a player wants to win a game by making one ball. Depending on cloth and the size of the table I will use a second ball break but I do it because it can clear the rack area better. One of the reasons I prefer BCA rules and yes, if I make the 8 ball on the break in APA I accept it.

04-26-2002, 12:27 PM
There are a lot of losers in Las Vegas that wait for the tide to change in their favor. This thinking may work in money games if you don't go broke first, but a lot of the pressure in tournaments is knowing that the event is limited. It may be another month or year before there is another chance.

04-26-2002, 07:41 PM
Fran, please do not divulge what is in your head for the sake of pool players and members of Mensa.