PDA

View Full Version : Corner five versus extended point



Papasmurf
03-05-2004, 11:27 PM
I would like to know which sytem you use the most and which you find more consistant and easier to use? I use both systems as well as a few others but these two are my favorites. Come on one pocket guys give me some stats and feedback!!!!

Chris Cass
03-06-2004, 03:08 AM
I play one pocket and use only the "ducknhide method."

/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif,

C.C.~~hasn't a clue.

Troy
03-06-2004, 08:33 AM
Please explain what you mean by "Corner Five" and "Extended Point". I've been at 1-P for years and have never heard those terms.

Troy...~~~ Must have been hanging in the wrong pool rooms
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Papasmurf:</font><hr> I would like to know which sytem you use the most and which you find more consistant and easier to use? I use both systems as well as a few others but these two are my favorites. Come on one pocket guys give me some stats and feedback!!!! <hr /></blockquote>

woody_968
03-06-2004, 08:39 AM
I am just starting to learn one pocket, could you explain these methods?

Frank_Glenn
03-06-2004, 09:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Papasmurf:</font><hr> I would like to know which sytem you use the most and which you find more consistant and easier to use? I use both systems as well as a few others but these two are my favorites. Come on one pocket guys give me some stats and feedback!!!! <hr /></blockquote>

I'm familiar with corner five, but not extended point. I do not use either to play one pocket One pocket is basically learning and memorizing shots and how to use spin to "bend" angles. You also need to learn to use "throw". YMMV

Popcorn
03-06-2004, 10:29 AM
I don't know what you are talking about.

Frank_Glenn
03-06-2004, 11:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I don't know what you are talking about. <hr /></blockquote>

Corner five is a "diamond" system for Carom, or kicks &amp; banks. I am not familiar with the other system that was mentioned, so I have no comment on it. I assume you do know what throw is.

PQQLK9
03-06-2004, 11:13 AM
I think this extended point he referred to is also know as the "spot on the wall" kicking method.
Dr.Cue and Jimmy Reed both teach this method.

<font color="blue">In the workshop Dr. Cue offers a spot-on-the-wall system to replace the math and eliminate the need to make numerical adjustments for the table. To use this system place the cue ball in front of one corner and an object ball in the opposite corner as shown in the diagram. Without any regard for diamonds or numbers, find the spot on the first rail—let’s say it’s X—that works to go three rails and pocket the object ball with a half tip of high and a tip of running english. Test it a few times to confirm the hit on the first rail and the consistency of your stroke. Now extend a line from the cue ball’s corner through that spot on the first rail and connect it with something in the room eight to twelve feet beyond the table to find your “spot on the wall.” It can be anything, a light switch, a chair slat, a table edge, or any stationary object you see on that line. Confirm its reliability by placing the cue ball in front of the corner again and, instead of aiming at the rail, aiming at your spot on the wall. The cue ball should go three rails again to pocket the object ball. Now you can move the cue ball around the table to try the same three-rail kick shot from various positions. Each time you move the cue ball, make a line from it to your spot on the wall and hit the first rail where that line meets it. If your spot is good and your stroke consistent, you will make the three-rail kick, as if magically, from any position on the table with no need for numbers or calculations. Dr. Cue did not invent the spot-on-the-wall idea but I would bet that he has taught it to more players around the world than anyone in history. And it illustrates nicely the simple genius of the 15-or-so equally effective systems that he offers in the workshop </font color>

http://www.cuetimes.com/Articles/Tom_Ross/2003/0303_Article.htm

mworkman
03-06-2004, 03:54 PM
Hmm. I wonder if it would work for the 3 rail bank. Banking the object ball into the line going to the spot on the wall.

I'll assume if you needed high left for the kick, you could go opposite (low right to transfer some left to OB)to get it to stay on that line. Should be close anyway. I will try it sometime at my next opportunity. Probably wouldn't be able to transfer enough spin is my guess.

Popcorn
03-06-2004, 04:19 PM
That is a common method used when playing golf. Players map out and make marks around the room for kicking. It is not much use on a strange table in a strange room though.

Jay M
03-07-2004, 12:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]

Hmm. I wonder if it would work for the 3 rail bank. Banking the object ball into the line going to the spot on the wall. <hr /></blockquote>

all day long.


I use the corner 5 or +1.5 (it's called +2, but I find 1.5 is more accurate with my stroke) and the spot on the wall CONSTANTLY. If you can combine the two I don't think there is a better learning system out there. Note that I said learning system. When you get into serious play, you had better KNOW those angles, not have to calculate them on the fly. Once you have some accuracy, you'll find that ALL systems are a fallback for when you are in trouble, rather than how you figure the shots initially. (that's true whether you are talking about 3C or pool)

Jay M

Fred Agnir
03-07-2004, 05:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Papasmurf:</font><hr> I would like to know which sytem you use the most and which you find more consistant and easier to use? I use both systems as well as a few others but these two are my favorites. Come on one pocket guys give me some stats and feedback!!!! <hr /></blockquote>I don't know which "extended point" method you use, but the one I use, you'd be pointing out at the parking lot for a 3-railer. I assume it's a 3-rail system, since that's what the corner five is.

But in one pocket?

Fred

OnePocketChamp
03-07-2004, 08:56 AM
I was playing one hole Wednesday night and my opponent used the extended digit method to describe his frustration toward my winning a game after a made two long one rails. For those not familiar with the extended digit method, I will explain: look directly at your opponent, using your right hand - make a fist, raise fist to about shoulder high and then extend middle finger.
This is a very effective method to convey your displeasure with an opponent. WARNING!!!!!! Not recommended usage in "biker bars"!!!!

smfsrca
03-07-2004, 01:17 PM
Popcorn,
Normally I agree with your view but in this case I think you are wrong. The method of using a point in the distance as an aiming tool for rail kicks is useful regardless of the table or the pool hall, ie, assuming all of the equipment is in reasonbly good condition.

For what it is worth I offer the following as an explanation:
Place the cue ball near the foot of the table and shoot it 3 rails to one of the foot rail corner pockets.
Now do the same with the cue a little further up table.
Continue to do this until the cue ball origin is near the center of the table.
Lets say it is 6 or 7 spots about 6 or 7 inches apart.
Note the distance between these spots and also note the distance between the contacts points on the first rail.
You will notice that the contact points on the first rail are closer together then the spots at the cue balls origin.
This indicates that the lines formed from the origin to the rail are not parallel but in fact converge. They converge at some point in the distance. Therefore, if you can identify a point in the distance that is reasonbly close the the actual point of convergence you can use that as an approximate aiming point for all of the three rail kicks. This will be true regardless of the table of the pool hall.
The actual point of convergence is the same distance away as the total distance the ball must travel from its origin to the corner pocket.

Steve in CA

Popcorn
03-08-2004, 12:59 AM
Thing is, when do plan on doing all this? You grab a rack and a table in a strange pool room when matching up and play. You have no time to be mapping out the room. If you are playing on a table in the middle of the room there are even fewer reference points you can find. It is hard to line up on something 40 feet away. It's real value is where you play all the time. Golf players actually put the marks there that they use. That is really all I meant. It's is not system that can be heavily depended on, but is very interesting to a player that has never heard of it, as to how well it works.

Bob_Jewett
03-08-2004, 06:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Papasmurf:</font><hr> I would like to know which sytem you use the most and which you find more consistant and easier to use? I use both systems as well as a few others but these two are my favorites. Come on one pocket guys give me some stats and feedback!!!! <hr /></blockquote>

It is remarkable how few people know the "corner-five" system in spite of the fact that it has appeared many, many times in print. For a simple explanation, see the RSB FAQ, which is the first item on the "misc files" page of the SFBA web site, listed below. For details, see the carom part of Byrne's "New Standard Book of Pool and Billiards."

I use the corner-five system maybe once in ten or twenty games at one pocket since it is usually useful only for kicking to a ball near my opponent's pocket, and only when the balls are sitting well.

On my usual table, I know the two "extended point" or "spot on the wall" system locations for the two corner pockets.
Why two spots for each pocket? Because the line changes very, very significantly depending on whether the object all is close to or far from the first cushion. I'd say that this system is used maybe once every five games at most, but more often than the corner-five.

Many people who discuss "spot on the wall" systems -- and there are many -- claim that it makes no difference how far away the wall is. They will say something like, "Oh, more than eight" or "eight to ten, or more is OK." Some shots in fact have the spot less than four feet from the table, and for the "opposite three" system, which is a similar sort of system, the spot is on the cushion (for carom tables) and on the bed of the table (for pool tables). See Byrne's "Wonderful World of ..." for a description of the opposite three system.

And as far as systems go, I agree with Eddie Robin, who says that while a system may get you into the right ball park, you have to depend on practice and feel to actually shoot the shot.

phil in sofla
03-08-2004, 09:31 PM
You can get the target point past the rail in about 3 seconds.

Just sight through the second diamond from the far end of the table. But sight from where?

The mirror position of where you want to hit after 3 rails.

That is, if you want to go to the right head corner, you'd sight through that line standing at the left corner pocket across the width of the table from the target pocket.

If the object ball was instead on the head rail on the 1st diamond from the right corner, you'd sight from the 1st diamond from the left corner, to hit that ball full.

To attempt to make the ball, you'd sight from one ball over from that position, the mirror image of where the ghost ball would make the hit to pocket the ball.

This is a very reliable system for 3 rail kicks, and also 4 rails, extending the line off the 3rd rail hit.

It comes up in any game your opponent leaves you safe.

phil in sofla
03-08-2004, 09:40 PM
Dr. Cue Tom Rossman says any line that works on a cue ball kick can be used to pocket the object ball as well.

To get the same running english on the cue ball requires extra english on the cue ball, for the reason you mentioned-- the object ball takes less english than the cue ball has. He might even recommend 2 tips of outside english, I forget just now.

You could also modify the line, shooting the object ball further than the line for the kick, to compensate for less english being on the ball.

I've used his 2 rail kick system line to bank the object ball many times, and that is a sweet shot.

phil in sofla
03-08-2004, 09:55 PM
Could you explain or link to a discussion on the two different points? Is the difference how much natural roll the cue ball picks up by travelling less or more to the first cushion?

It's funny, I love systems and play many, but I have just balked at learning the corner five or plus 2 system, even though the ones I use have the same diamond counting methods. I've looked at it, tried it, but couldn't get over the hurdle. I became convinced that the return track was too variable for it to be useful unless you knew the table.

System vs. feel is almost a misnomer. For the system to work, you have to have the feel for the stroke required, or an improper stroke may invalidate the line. When you must modify the system line with some stroke, more or less English, more or less speed, because the indicated line is blocked, that is all feel.