PDA

View Full Version : Elk Master tips?



stickman
03-06-2004, 10:12 PM
Does anyone besides me have problems glueing them? I have no problems with anything but them. I usually use Duro quick gel. It seems everyones in a hurry. I always use Loctite 2 part, 5 minute epoxy to do ferrules, although it is a lot longer time than 5 minutes. (More like two hours) Will the Loctite epoxy work better? The soft tips don't turn well either, but some people like soft tips. (not me) /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

BLACKHEART
03-06-2004, 10:25 PM
Since '86 when I started to make Qs, I've used Duro Quick Gel for all tips & all ferrules(except for Ivory where I use 5 min epoxy). If you sand the backs of the tips & don't put too much glue on, you shouldn't have any trouble...JER

Troy
03-06-2004, 10:58 PM
I agree with Jer. I've never had any problems with Elk Master tips either. Sand the back of the tip and prep the end of the ferrule. I also cut a cross-hatch on both the tip and ferrule end. I used Duro Gel until recently when I was unable to locate a local source. For the past few months I've been using Loctite QuickTiteŽ which is the same as Loctite 454. BTW, Loctite makes Duro.

Troy

stickman
03-06-2004, 11:02 PM
I may have to try using less glue. They are the only ones that I have any trouble with.

stickman
03-06-2004, 11:05 PM
The crosshatch is another good idea to try. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Harold Acosta
03-06-2004, 11:46 PM
I don't know if our climate has something to do with it but I've noticed that the Duro Glue and the Loctite glue you guys mentioned only works for a couple of applications for me.

I'm now using Loctite 4541, a Prism Medical Device Adhesive which is "surface insensitive" and a Biological Tested Gel as indicated in the tube. A friend gave it to me since Loctite has a factory in our town in Puerto Rico. I've used all their adhesives, 401, 404, 417, you name it. I've used it but for now, the 4541 is the one that has worked better but there is also a problem. It dries pretty fast and you better work fast with the tip.

Now on the subject, once I sand the back of the Elkmasters tip, I make sure to wipe out any particules left, and with a brand new razor blade, I make paralel cuts, not crossed and it has worked for me.

<font color="blue">Billiards: A passionate sport for the mind and soul!</font color>
http://www.thebilliardstour.com/images/starscrash.gif

hadenball
03-07-2004, 10:35 PM
I hate elk masters tips, I have no problem putting them on it's the trimming that get's me. So spill it someone what is the secret?

I use loc tite &amp; devcon 5 min. epoxy for ferrules , inserts, pins etc. but gel cyano for tips.I use my cutter &amp; trim it down to within 1/16 " of the ferrule then finish it with a razor knife. When I use the razor knife to trim it the tip feels like it is going to separate. Any Ideas? I can usually talk the customer into a Royal Oak which isn't as soft but I like to use a backer with it since it's thinner than most. Thanks guys.
haden

BLACKHEART
03-08-2004, 12:33 AM
I have 2 Willard tip trimmer, machines that have put on thousands of tips. Soft or hard they are no problem...JER

Popcorn
03-08-2004, 01:09 AM
I just do it on the lathe. I like high speed steel cutters because I can sharpen them to razor sharpness. I just put a dial indicator on the ferrule and zero it in then cut it to the ferrule. I never touch the ferrule. I speed up the lathe and then finish the tip. I do cut tips at a little higher speed then wood. If there is any secret it would be the way you grind the cutter. It has to cut with the leading edge only, you don't want a sharp point tearing up the edge of the tip. You also want a slight upward rake on the cutter so it slices as it cuts. You just have to experiment a little with different cutter angles. Same when you face off an end grain. I use a rounded cutter with no point and I get a very smooth cut with no tearing out at all. You need to grind a lot of different cutters for the different applications. If you have a Quick change tool post it makes it really nice. Make changes in a couple of seconds.

stickman
03-08-2004, 06:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hadenball:</font><hr> I hate elk masters tips<hr /></blockquote> HaHaHa /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think it, but don't say it, at least not in front of a customer. I repair all the house sticks at my favorite poolhall. I usually replace the tips with LePro. I'm going to mix them up with Elk Masters until I can perfect the technique for installing them. Good idea Popcorn! I haven't experimented with grinding my own bits yet, or tried turning at a higher speed. Actually, I can live with the turning. My first priority is getting them to adhere properly. I hope the scribing the back of the tips does it.

Chris Cass
03-08-2004, 06:46 AM
Hi Jim,

I only knew of one other person that used a leathe to cut the tips down. BTW, been searching for someone like that since. It's the way to go for sure. I just can't understand why anyone wouldn't do this. They come out great. Now that Popcorn enlightened me I can understand it better. The guy that did this owned Marie's Golden Cue in Chicago at the time.

Regards,

C.C.~~thanks Popcorn....

Troy
03-08-2004, 08:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr>I only knew of one other person that used a leathe to cut the tips down. BTW, been searching for someone like that since. It's the way to go for sure. <hr /></blockquote>
Well Chris, you could just ship your shafts to me via UPS for tip installation.......... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Troy...~~~ Will ship them back when done... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Troy
03-08-2004, 08:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> I have 2 Willard tip trimmer, machines that have put on thousands of tips. Soft or hard they are no problem...JER <hr /></blockquote>
I too still use my Willard's even though I have a lathe.

Troy...~~~ Not enough toys... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SpiderMan
03-08-2004, 10:32 AM
Stick,

The Elk Masters are more porous than most tips. Rough up the backside well, and just be very careful that you get it really wet with the glue. That means using the tip of the gel tube to spread it around completely. It will soak in more than on other tips, so you will need extra. Don't leave any dry spots. Then, when you install, touch it together, pull apart and rotate a few degrees, then push it together hard and hold pressure for at least a minute. It will stay on if you do this right.

Use a very sharp blade to trim. If you continue to have problems, you can use the Willard to trim to almost the ferrule, then put it in your lathe for the final. You can also pre-treat between the Willard and lathe using a layer of super glue, this will also help prevent the tip from pulling apart. Mainly it's just practice, technique, and being careful.

SpiderMan

stickman
03-08-2004, 05:34 PM
Thanks, Spidey. I had noticed they were porous after sanding. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan
03-08-2004, 05:40 PM
Troy,

Around here, Wal-Mart seems to be an ideal source for Duro Gel. It's only $1.27 for a card of two tubes, and they sell so much that you always get new stock.

SpiderMan

BLACKHEART
03-08-2004, 11:06 PM
I go to the local Wal-Mart to buy my Duro Super Glue Gel &amp; usually buy 10-15 double cards at a time. One time I got a new cashier &amp; she asked what I was doing with all of the super glue. Just off the top of my head I said" I'M BUILDING A GARAGE &amp; I'M TIRED OF RUNNING OUT OF NAILS". About a week later my wife &amp; I were checking out at Wal- Mart &amp; the same girl wispered to to next cashier, "YOU KNOW HE'S BUILDING A GARAGE WITH SUPER GLUE"...JER

Chris Cass
03-08-2004, 11:19 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Chris Cass
03-08-2004, 11:23 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif,

I wish I could ship myself down there. Then, we could just spend the day hanging out. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks buddy,

C.C.

ajrack
03-09-2004, 12:06 AM
I have just read most of the posts on this topic and no one mentioned the temperature of the glue...if the glue is warmer..such as 80 degrees + ...the very small air bubbles that you cannot see, will be smaller and there will be better adhesion.
If you remember the "old" days, they used to heat the glue in pots to glue almost anything. Even though the new adhesives are remarkably better nowdays...can't hurt to warm up the glue. Hold it under a light bulb for a few minutes or put it in a pan of hot water.

Rich R.
03-09-2004, 05:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ajrack:</font><hr> If you remember the "old" days, they used to heat the glue in pots to glue almost anything. Even though the new adhesives are remarkably better nowdays...can't hurt to warm up the glue. Hold it under a light bulb for a few minutes or put it in a pan of hot water. <hr /></blockquote>
That was hide glue and had to be melted to use it. It started out as flakes. Once something was glued, you could actually remelt the glue to get the pieces apart.
I don't believe that would be the best glue for tips.
I'm also not sure how the heat would affect the modern glues. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

stickman
03-09-2004, 06:21 AM
I have a friend that told me that contact cement works for tips, although he uses the super gel. Sure enough, I've cut off worn out, original tips from several inexpensive cues and found they were glued with contact cement. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I doubt that I'll try to use it, but found it interesting all the same.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-09-2004, 07:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> I have a friend that told me that contact cement works for tips, although he uses the super gel. Sure enough, I've cut off worn out, original tips from several inexpensive cues and found they were glued with contact cement. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I doubt that I'll try to use it, but found it interesting all the same. <hr /></blockquote>

When I first started playing 6 years ago I bought a tube of contact cement. I can't remember the name but it was made by Tweeten. It did not work very well /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I actually played 2 games one night not realizing my tip had fallen off. Yes it was alcohol-related /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Don't worry folks, I walked home.

Chris Cass
03-09-2004, 08:23 AM
Hi Wally,

That's actually the perfect break cue. I've known some to rip the tip off a house cue when they got a game. They'd just chalk the ferrule. The opponent hadn't a clue. It also jumps good too.

Regards,

C.C.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-09-2004, 08:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Wally,

That's actually the perfect break cue. I've known some to rip the tip off a house cue when they got a game. They'd just chalk the ferrule. The opponent hadn't a clue. It also jumps good too.

Regards,

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>

Oh but the sound... /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Yikes /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rich R.
03-09-2004, 08:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> I have a friend that told me that contact cement works for tips, although he uses the super gel. Sure enough, I've cut off worn out, original tips from several inexpensive cues and found they were glued with contact cement. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I doubt that I'll try to use it, but found it interesting all the same. <hr /></blockquote>
Stickman, I worked in a pool room for a short time, back in 1969-1971, and all we used was contact cement.

As with other glues, put a little bit of glue on both the tip and the end of the ferrule. Then rub them together to get a nice even coating. Then, with contact cement, take them apart and let them sit, until the glue is no longer sticky to the touch.
At that point we would press them firmly together and wack the tip a couple times with a hammer, to really settle it in. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

We rarely had tips fall off. On the rare occasion that one of my house cues needs a tip, I still do it the same way. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The only reason I don't do my own playing cues, is that I don't have a lathe for trimming the tip and I don't want to mess up the ivory ferrules. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

P.S.
I have to add, we only used Le Pro tips at the pool room, so I don't know if that method would work with the Elk Master tips.

BLACKHEART
03-09-2004, 08:49 AM
You are right about the temperature of the glue. Even Super Glue Gel takes longer to set up, in cooler temps...JER

Troy
03-09-2004, 08:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> You are right about the temperature of the glue. Even Super Glue Gel takes longer to set up, in cooler temps...JER <hr /></blockquote>
When "super glue" first was available in industry (approx 1970 if I remember correctly), we stored it in a refrigerator but let it come to room temp prior to use. I still store Gel in the 'frige.

Troy

Troy
03-09-2004, 09:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif,

I wish I could ship myself down there. Then, we could just spend the day hanging out. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks buddy,

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>
I could go for that Chris but I'd probably go broke... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

stickman
03-09-2004, 09:38 AM
That's funny! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think I still have an unopened tube of that from somewhere. In fact, I think they still sell it.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-09-2004, 09:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> That's funny! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I think I still have an unopened tube of that from somewhere. In fact, I think they still sell it. <hr /></blockquote>

There's a place up the road called Best Billiards. Last time I was in there they still sold it.

The cue was a $50 Orchid. My first store-bought cue. The only reason I knew the tip came off was I started playing partners with some gal and she noticed it.

After about 6 months I gave that cue to a newbie girl league player and it's been passed around thru about 5 different ladies. I'm sure it's still floating around and I expect to see it again someday /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Frank_Glenn
03-09-2004, 10:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> You are right about the temperature of the glue. Even Super Glue Gel takes longer to set up, in cooler temps...JER <hr /></blockquote>
When "super glue" first was available in industry (approx 1970 if I remember correctly), we stored it in a refrigerator but let it come to room temp prior to use. I still store Gel in the 'frige.

Troy <hr /></blockquote>
I buy CA from Woodcraft (www.woodcraft.com) in a big bottle (orange label). I use it to make pens and other stuff on my mini lathe. I store it on my workbench (for months). A big bottle is about $10 or less. You can get thin/thicker/real thick. I use the middle thicker stuff. I only buy one bottle at a time, as there is a Woodcraft store here, but they don't keep it refrigerated, either. I did keep the little tubes refrigerated until I opened one when I was using them. I also use an accellerator I got there at Woodcraft, sometimes. It works very quickly /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif