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eg8r
03-08-2004, 10:07 AM
Here is a quote by John Kerry... [ QUOTE ]
"We will raise the minimum wage because no one who works 40 hours a week should have to live in poverty in America." <hr /></blockquote> Just how high would he have to raise minimum wage, so that some full-time bagger at a grocery store does not live in poverty.

I wonder if Kerry is referring only to those that are single. Surely he is not referring also to those who work full-time bagging groceries and have a wife at home (who has to stay with the kids when they get out of school) and 3 kids running around. Will he also take into account the amount of money some of these people are already receiving in the form of some government check?

If minimum wage is increased too high, will this not piss off a bunch of the laborers who are making a little bit above the current minimum wage? Will they also receive some pay increase? Where will the pay increase stop?

In the Martha thread there is mention of wasting money on the small fry when there are others who are stealing and lying about much more than Martha. Would these same people agree with Corporate America that it makes sense to find the cheapest labor in an effort to save the company and shareholders money?

Outsourcing seems to be a hot topic right now. What do you think could possibly happen if Kerry were to become President and force all these companies to pay an un-reasonable wage for their employees? I can guess the smaller businesses will lay-off employees and only keep the hard working ones because they cannot afford the keep everyone. I guess we will see some of the larger corporations continue to move on out.

Just as an off topic for discussion, why doesn't the media ever mention the increased US worker production, instead rather mention only the outsourcing and loss of jobs (surely this is not because the media is conservatively biased and believe this to be good for Bush)?

eg8r

Wally_in_Cincy
03-08-2004, 10:24 AM
Here is a quote by John Kerry...

"We will raise the minimum wage because no one who works 40 hours a week should have to live in poverty in America." <hr /></blockquote>

They should work 60 like I did.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> .....the media is conservatively biased and believe this to be good for Bush)?
<hr /></blockquote>

Obviously, according to Pat Buchanan /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Qtec
03-08-2004, 10:48 AM
[ QUOTE ]
"We will raise the minimum wage because no one who works 40 hours a week should have to live in poverty in America." <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe this means that the 'suits'will have to settle for $5 million bonus insead of $50 million .

Its in everybody's interest to reduce poverty.

Maybe then you wont have the need? for 'secure' housing, ie communities behind walls.

You always pick on the poor workers. Dont they have a right to a decent life as well?
Slavery was abolished, or havent you heard. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Q

Wally_in_Cincy
03-08-2004, 11:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Its in everybody's interest to reduce poverty.

Maybe then you wont have the need? for 'secure' housing, ie communities behind walls.

<font color="blue">You can't blame poverty for criminal activity. That's a behavioral issue. The majority of poor people are not criminals.

BTW you can't reduce poverty by passing out wads of cash. It doesn't work. </font color>

You always pick on the poor workers. Dont they have a right to a decent life as well?

<font color="blue">No. You have a right to have an opportunity to have a decent life. What you do with it is up to you. </font color>

Slavery was abolished, or havent you heard. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Q

<font color="blue">You are a true genius. </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

Qtec
03-08-2004, 11:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]
McDonald's Worldwide Sales Jump 13.9 Percent in Feb.

Friday, March 05, 2004



CHICAGO McDonald's Corp. (MCD) Friday said worldwide sales at its fast-food restaurants open more than a year rose 13.9 percent in February, amid improvement in its primary U.S. market where menu items like all-white-meat Chicken McNuggets (search) and new advertising have lifted results.

It was the company's 10th consecutive monthly gain.

Same-store sales in the United States rose 20.1 percent from a year earlier. Those in Europe, the No. 2 market for McDonald's, increased 7.7 percent.

Sales were helped by an extra day in the month, as 2004 was a leap year, the company said.

<hr /></blockquote>

Do you think the McDonalds workers can expect a pay increase on the strength of this?

[ QUOTE ]
BTW you can't reduce poverty by passing out wads of cash. It doesn't work. <hr /></blockquote>

Has it ever been tried?

Q

[ QUOTE ]
<hr /></blockquote>

Wally_in_Cincy
03-08-2004, 11:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
...Do you think the McDonalds workers can expect a pay increase on the strength of this?

<font color="blue">Why should they? An employee's worth is based on what someone is willing to pay them. Plain and simple. </font color>

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
BTW you can't reduce poverty by passing out wads of cash. It doesn't work. <hr /></blockquote>

Has it ever been tried?

Q

<font color="blue">Yes. It was called the "Great Society" and it has destroyed the inner city and Appalachia to some degree. Any other questions? </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

eg8r
03-08-2004, 11:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Has it ever been tried?
<hr /></blockquote> Yup. Welfare. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif It does not work.

eg8r

eg8r
03-08-2004, 11:23 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, according to Pat Buchanan <hr /></blockquote> /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

eg8r &lt;~~~Watching nhp giggle while patting Wally on the back

eg8r
03-08-2004, 11:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe this means that the 'suits'will have to settle for $5 million bonus insead of $50 million . <font color="red"> If that is what it takes. Do you think it is a viable option? </font color>

Its in everybody's interest to reduce poverty. <font color="red"> I agree, but was anyone ever questioning this? EVER? </font color>

Maybe then you wont have the need? for 'secure' housing, ie communities behind walls. <font color="red"> Whatever </font color>

You always pick on the poor workers. Dont they have a right to a decent life as well? <font color="red"> Are they not the ones this ENTIRE thread is about??? No, I don't remember the Constitution or Bill of Rights mentioning the right to a decent life. Maybe you have that confused that with "...the pursuit of happiness", otherwise, I am not sure where you came up with that one. However, if I guessed correctly then it is only a pursuit no one is gauranteed anything. </font color>
Slavery was abolished, or havent you heard. <font color="red"> Could you please identify your definition of slavery. It is obviously different than the rest of the world. Some guy bagging groceries for minimum wage is hardly considered a slave. </font color> <hr /></blockquote> Once again, your entire post said NOTHING. You did not bother to relate to the original post at all, and decided to go off on your own tangent.

eg8r

Cueless Joey
03-08-2004, 12:06 PM
I have a hunch Q and Fast Larry are the same person.

ras314
03-08-2004, 12:50 PM
Whole thing is quite simple. Just give everybody $5million and we'll all be multi-millionares with no need to work.

Easy to finance, just get rid of DoD, NASA, ect. In other words finish the job Clinton started.

pooljunkie73
03-08-2004, 01:42 PM
Being one of the few Canadians on the board i have to ask, what is the current minimum wage right now? Here in Canada it is $6.25/hr, thats roughly $7.75/hr US.

Kent Mc.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-08-2004, 01:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooljunkie73:</font><hr> Being one of the few Canadians on the board i have to ask, what is the current minimum wage right now? Here in Canada it is $6.25/hr, thats roughly $7.75/hr US.

Kent Mc. <hr /></blockquote>

I'm not sure but I think you have your exchange rate backwards.

min. wage here is 6.25 I think. I don't know anybody that works for min wage.

Iowashark
03-08-2004, 03:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooljunkie73:</font><hr> Being one of the few Canadians on the board i have to ask, what is the current minimum wage right now? Here in Canada it is $6.25/hr, thats roughly $7.75/hr US.

Kent Mc. <hr /></blockquote>

According to my calculations, if Canadians were working minimum wage at $6.25/hr, that would be equivalent to working minimum wage in the U.S. for $4.75/hr. (give or take a few cents probably).

pooljunkie73
03-08-2004, 04:20 PM
oops, so i was backwards /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif. If it is $6.25/hr US for minumum wage thats not too bad.

Kent Mc.

JPB
03-08-2004, 08:12 PM
Minimum wage laws cost us jobs. Always have, always will. It is crazy socialist thinking to even have them. You can't impose a minimum wage and then pretend to boo hoo about "outsourcing". Stupid socialist policies made wages expensive. So the jobs go somewhere else. It is simple. But the lefties can't accept it.

If we want to put a dent in poverty we should scrap minimum wage laws and eliminate socialist programs. No welfare, soc. sec, medicare, etc.... Eliminate the corporate tax. Eliminate the capital gains tax. Eliminate the inheritance tax. Eliminate child tax deductions etc.... Go to a flat tax of no more than 10%. Then we will put a real dent in poverty. Won't happen. So productive people will be at the mercy of the socialists.

Qtec
03-08-2004, 08:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know anybody that works for min wage.
<hr /></blockquote>

That just about says it all.


Finally.

Q

Qtec
03-08-2004, 08:25 PM
Wow!!!!!!

Q

Qtec
03-08-2004, 08:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Once again, your entire post said NOTHING. You did not bother to relate to the original post at all, and decided to go off on your own tangent.

<hr /></blockquote>

Only you could fail to miss the connection between the Minimum Wage and poverty.

I give up.

Q

Qtec
03-08-2004, 08:35 PM
Wonder why people keep calling you CLUELESS.


Dont be ridiculous.

Q

Wally_in_Cincy
03-09-2004, 07:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I don't know anybody that works for min wage.
<hr /></blockquote>

That just about says it all.


Finally.

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Actually come to think of it I do. My friend's daughter works at Donato's Pizza. She's 16 and it's her first job. She's been there 2 months.

Minimum wage should only be a training wage for people entering the work force. If you work for minimum wage for more than a year you're either a loser, a slacker, or mentally incompetent.

I know a guy who is 27 who is, for lack of a better word, retarded. He works as a busboy for minimum wage. But the county brings groceries to his house once a week and cleans his house and launders his clothing and drives him to work and balances his checkbook.

Yeah Q, if you have to be poor somewhere, America is the place to do it.

eg8r
03-09-2004, 10:07 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Only you could fail to miss the connection between the Minimum Wage and poverty.

I give up.
<hr /></blockquote> Promise?

If you are somehow implying that the minimum wage is the driving force behind poverty, or even lesser yet if it was higher it would remove poverty, then go ahead and give up.

Tell us what you think would happen if the minimum wage was increased to bring those working for minimum wage above the poverty line. Do not answer it with some dumb question that is rhetorical in nature but rather maybe some real input. I am sure you will be one-sided and only list the benefits of the person getting the extra money, so I will stop you ahead of time. If you have no interest in explaining what effects it could have on the business (remember the majority of Americans work for small businesses) being forced to pay the higher labor then don't bother.

Also, maybe give us a clue as to what amount you think the minimum wage to be raised, and how would this affect different situations (single, married, children, etc). Should a person soley supporting a family of 4 receive a higher minimum wage than his fellow employee who is single with no children? Just how fair do you want this to be?

eg8r

eg8r
03-09-2004, 10:09 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Wonder why people keep calling you CLUELESS. <hr /></blockquote> Boy, isn't that the pot calling the kettle back. Q, if you were not so Clueless, you would take a second and actually read his name. I have said this many times your reading/comprehension skills are in the toilet. Here once again you have proven it.

Do you see the difference betwenn CUEless and CLUEless? You were the latter, and it is fitting.

eg8r

Wally_in_Cincy
03-10-2004, 09:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>... Welfare. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif It does not work.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

I'm waiting for Q to come back and try to defend welfare /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

nhp
03-12-2004, 02:40 AM
When it comes to the issue of poverty and the poor living in the United States, I don't really believe anyone who has not experienced poverty to have any credibility when they are against ideas to bring people above the poverty line.

Bring me a person from the streets of Compton or the Bronx who agrees with Eg8r and Wally, then I'll listen.

Right now both of you are just talking out of your asses.
Both of you are heartless and close-minded. As long as the world you live in provides a cushion for your ass, and a computer to spread your selfish ideology, without having to worry about the people your beliefs step on being in your face, then you're happy.

eg8r
03-12-2004, 07:33 AM
First off, I would like to thank you for completely ignoring the main point of the thread. I guess this could be a mini-Qtec. The point is not about poverty rather it is about minimum wage.

[ QUOTE ]
When it comes to the issue of poverty and the poor living in the United States, I don't really believe anyone who has not experienced poverty to have any credibility when they are against ideas to bring people above the poverty line. <hr /></blockquote> This is the most failed logic of all time. This is the same whine that Kerry tried to say about the military. Have you ever referred to a bad call in a professional sporting event? Have you made accusations about war in Iraq? Have you had an opinion about current politics? You have been part of none of these as a career but I am sure it would not take too much to answer my questions and prove your inept in each one as far as your qualifications to talk about them. So, given your logic (and I guessing you actually believe this crap) you will refrain from ever having an opinion or say about any of the above.

[ QUOTE ]
Bring me a person from the streets of Compton or the Bronx who agrees with Eg8r and Wally, then I'll listen.
<hr /></blockquote> It happens every day. There are people from these areas that break out and make a life for themselves and never go back.

My stance has always been, every single person is responsible for their own actions. Every single person born into poverty in the US has the right to an education and each and every single person has the choice to learn or not. Since you avoided the real point of the thread, I will steer you back with an example. Take a small grocery store in the middle of the hood, USA. The owner is not wealthy enough to sit at home in the 'burbs, instead he is working everyday trying to make ends meet. Now, business has increased a little beyond his ability to meet the need, so he hires some high school drop-out to work the register for him and stock some shelves. The HS dropout works 40 hours (@ $6.25/hr) and lives in poverty. Let's say the government decides this is a shame and raises the minimum wage to $10/hr (probably still could not get out of poverty at that wage). Do you think the store owner can still afford the guy? I am betting not, so what happens...the guy gets laid off. Well, the same person is still poor, yet now the government has screwed him out of a job. What is the poor guy going to do...He is going to head down to unemployment and let the government take care of him once again. Come election time, this young man decides to vote. Guess who he is going to vote for...you are right, he is going to vote for the guy that will continue to pay his way through life, a Democrat. Just if the poor guy would have learned something in school and got a real job, maybe he would not be so dependent on the government to pay his way through life. This is only one example and does not represent the entire population of those in poverty (I have to put that in there because there is one quiet ccb member lurking who does not like it when I use blanket stereotypes).

[ QUOTE ]
Right now both of you are just talking out of your asses. <hr /></blockquote> What are you doing?

[ QUOTE ]
Both of you are heartless and close-minded. <hr /></blockquote> Wrong again. I am a cheerleader for self-responsibility. A very large portion of those in poverty trying to support themselves with minimum wage jobs, just continue to make bad decisions. I don't think they should be rewarded with pay increases when you have hard working people that are just over the poverty line and work hard and make good decisions, and they will never see a benefit for this increase.

[ QUOTE ]
As long as the world you live in provides a cushion for your ass, <hr /></blockquote> This is more liberal mantra. All liberals believe that someone or something must be providing everything. You are going to wallow in this logic for the rest of life until you get over the hump and learn that you must work hard to provide for yourself because no one or thing is going to give it to you. My "world" does not provide anything for me. I work about 50 hrs/week at my day job, and I have my own company on the side. This is not to brag, but to point out that my "world" does not provide anything. I work hard for what I have and this has in turn fueled my beliefs. I started out in school just like the poor did (I even went to a public school for awhile). I even had to share all my school supplies with the kids who could not afford any of their own. The difference is that I decided I was at school to learn not goof off. Once I made that decision, I rolled right on through school. To help myself out even more, was that I worked my butt off in high school and took enough college classes that I only spent one semester in college before I started my Junior year. I knew that it was going to be expensive to go to college, and I let the state pay for my first 2 years. So, did my "world" provide that also?

As far as stepping on people, I believe I should "help" others, NOT provide for them.

eg8r

nhp
03-13-2004, 04:51 AM
[ QUOTE ]
This is the most failed logic of all time. This is the same whine that Kerry tried to say about the military. Have you ever referred to a bad call in a professional sporting event? Have you made accusations about war in Iraq? Have you had an opinion about current politics? You have been part of none of these as a career but I am sure it would not take too much to answer my questions and prove your inept in each one as far as your qualifications to talk about them. So, given your logic (and I guessing you actually believe this crap) you will refrain from ever having an opinion or say about any of the above.
<hr /></blockquote>

My logic is not flawed, you are flawing my logic. People talk about sports, they bet on it, some people play sports as a hobby, and it is widely talked about by people who have interests. In politics, people like certain politicians, they dislike others, it's widely talked and argued about.

The issue of poverty and low wages for the most part is a moral issue when it is discussed between separate classes. I believe it is morally wrong for someone who has never experienced poverty to be against someone's solutions to erase it. When the issue for the fairly wealthy and above is spending a few extra dollars in taxes, I believe it is morally wrong. I suppose my religious beliefs may play a part in it, but that's just me.

[ QUOTE ]
My stance has always been, every single person is responsible for their own actions. Every single person born into poverty in the US has the right to an education and each and every single person has the choice to learn or not. <hr /></blockquote>

This above and the rest of the paragraph you wrote you made a very good point. This issue is a very touchy one. It all depends on how you look at it. What you showed me was the surface of the problem, and a very good example at that. When one digs deeper, you have to find the root of the problem.

Our society is divided in to classes. At the top of the list, there are the blue-bloods, also known as 'old money'. These are people who for the most part inherit fortunes from their relatives. One step below them is the upper class. This is also known as 'new money'. These are your famous athletes, movie stars, TV personalities, singers, successful businessmen, etc. Below that you have the middle-upper class, the middle class, the lower-middle class, the lower class, and finally, the under class. The underclass is at the very bottom of the food chain. In this class, every individual in this society sees no upper-mobility. They don't see the outside world of opportunity. A street thug sees great opportunities as getting a wad of cash by any means necessary. A student can only become as good as his teacher, so long as he remains under his teacher's wing. In a world where there are no 'teachers', i.e. people showing examples of how to transcend themselves from poverty, it is a no-win situation. Nearly all of the ghettos of this country are 99% minorities. For nearly half of the last century, they were denied good edcuation, they were discriminated against in the workplace, and they were denied power in politics. With that said, it seems that more opportunities have been taken away from them rather than given to them.

[ QUOTE ]
Wrong again. I am a cheerleader for self-responsibility. <hr /></blockquote>

You seem more like a cheerleader for yourself.

[ QUOTE ]
You are going to wallow in this logic for the rest of life until you get over the hump and learn that you must work hard to provide for yourself because no one or thing is going to give it to you. <hr /></blockquote>

I am not talking about myself. I am doing just fine these days. I just think that poor people need better opportunities to help themselves.

[ QUOTE ]
As far as stepping on people, I believe I should "help" others, NOT provide for them. <hr /></blockquote>

It would take alot to convince me that you actually give a crap about other people.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-13-2004, 08:58 AM
<font color="blue">Good Lord. Where do I start? sigh...

First of all I think you should print this out and go back and read it ten years from now and see how misguided you are.</font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr>
I believe it is morally wrong for someone who has never experienced poverty to be against someone's solutions to erase it....

<font color="blue">Who better to understand how to stay out of poverty than those who have proven that they know how to avoid it? </font color>


When the issue for the fairly wealthy and above is spending a few extra dollars in taxes,

<font color="blue">More taxes and gov't handouts is not the answer. If you actually believe this there is no point even discussing this. </font color>

I believe it is morally wrong. I suppose my religious beliefs may play a part in it, but that's just me.

<font color="blue">If that's the case give money to churches that help poor people. That's 10 times better than a check from the gov't. </font color>

Nearly all of the ghettos of this country are 99% minorities. For nearly half of the last century, they were denied good edcuation, they were discriminated against in the workplace, and they were denied power in politics. With that said, it seems that more opportunities have been taken away from them rather than given to them.

<font color="blue">It's the welfare state that has destroyed the inner city, not discrimination. Plus the poverty pimps like Jesse Jackson and his ilk that tell people they have no hope because the white man has his foot on his throat.

Trust me, all the white guys do not get together every Tuesday morning to plot ways to keep the black man down.</font color>


It would take alot to convince me that you actually give a crap about other people.

<font color="blue">Compassion is not putting an able-bodied person on the dole. That destroys their soul. Compassion is teaching that person to take care of himself. </font color>


<hr /></blockquote>

OK you can believe this or not but the studies have been done. If you follow the 3 guidelines below you have a 97% chance of avoiding poverty:

1. Finish high school

2. Get a job, any job, and do not quit unless you have a better one.

3. Do not have children out of wedlock.

Are these 3 things hard to do?

Wally_in_Cincy
03-13-2004, 09:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
...If you follow the 3 guidelines below you have a 97% chance of avoiding poverty:

1. Finish high school

2. Get a job, any job, and do not quit unless you have a better one.

3. Do not have children out of wedlock.

Are these 3 things hard to do? <hr /></blockquote>

and this is the message the Jesse Jacksons of this world should be spreading, not their "Hate Whitey" crap.

JPB
03-13-2004, 09:18 PM
"The issue of poverty and low wages for the most part is a moral issue when it is discussed between separate classes. I believe it is morally wrong for someone who has never experienced poverty to be against someone's solutions to erase it. When the issue for the fairly wealthy and above is spending a few extra dollars in taxes, I believe it is morally wrong. I suppose my religious beliefs may play a part in it, but that's just me."

I think it is morally wrong for people who make decisions based on irrational hocus pocus to take my money at gunpoint to give to other people. Since you think somebody has to have experienced poverty to have a say in where their money goes and you admit to making decisions for others, and telling us what to say, based on your religion, you should recognize your points have no logical merit. Plenty of rational economic theory proves how free market capitalism provides money and reduces poverty. Systems based on irrationality don't. Religious governments stifled economic growth. They would do so now if they had a chance. Communist governments are essentially religious governments in that they depend on thought control and enforced irrationality. They don't work. Your discussion of the separate classes is tired old marxist crap. the same stuff that condemned countless people to lives of poverty and servitude. And caused the torture and murder of millions. Then you admit to basing your decision on religion. Great. So you would vote to tax me based on your provably irrational beliefs. And when I don't pay you would send the government agents out to take me to prison. Great. I love being enslaved by communist mystics.

Sorry to be insulting. Well, no I'm not. I am tired of people being proud of ideas that have been proven wrong. And basing it on hocus pocus. Then telling me it's immoral for me to want to keep my money if I haven't been poor enough for your tastes. Fvck that. I'll say what I want, and in this case don't care if you are insulted. You are proud of ideas that take my very humanity away and then tell me it's immoral to speak against it. Sickening post by you. You want to try to create a happy little socialist land where people have happy little irrational beliefs great. Do it on your own time and money. You have no right to take a cent of my money for your little project. I just can't believe you are so arrogant that you say people can't be against somebody else's idea of what to do if they aren't poor. That is exactly the thought control that commies use. It is just awful.

eg8r
03-13-2004, 10:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The issue of poverty and low wages for the most part is a moral issue when it is discussed between separate classes. I believe it is morally wrong for someone who has never experienced poverty to be against someone's solutions to erase it. <hr /></blockquote> Your defining differences is the first flaw. I am not adding to the flaw, as you do that just fine. You state that people talk about sports and bet, blah blah blah, people talk about politics, blah blah blah. It is all the same, and poverty is just another water cooler discussion.

[ QUOTE ]
I believe it is morally wrong for someone who has never experienced poverty to be against someone's solutions to erase it. <hr /></blockquote> This is flawed also, but maybe it is because you are not quite putting your thoughts into words clearly. There is nothing morally wrong with someone (not poor) objecting to another non-poor persons solutions if I feel they are infringing on myself, or I inherently object to the way they are going about it. They are using my tax dollars so I do have a say. I hope I am misreading what you posted, however it seems you are saying only a poor person should be able to talk about those that are poor, and especially how they should be brought out of poverty. Sounds crazy, and maybe I mis-reading it. The last thing I would do would be sit back and just offer the poor free money and see what they do with it. With the amazing amount of people in the lower-middle class to the lower classes, it surprises me just how many of them have cable tv or a sattelite dish, cell phones, big screen tv, and worst of all CREDIT CARDS.

I firmly disagree that discussing poverty and low wages has to do with morality. Maybe if you cleared that up it would help. Sure isn't the same as talking about prostitution and the moral implications of that choice in career.

[ QUOTE ]
The underclass is at the very bottom of the food chain. In this class, every individual in this society sees no upper-mobility. They don't see the outside world of opportunity. A street thug sees great opportunities as getting a wad of cash by any means necessary. A student can only become as good as his teacher, so long as he remains under his teacher's wing. In a world where there are no 'teachers', i.e. people showing examples of how to transcend themselves from poverty, it is a no-win situation. Nearly all of the ghettos of this country are 99% minorities. For nearly half of the last century, they were denied good edcuation, they were discriminated against in the workplace, and they were denied power in politics. With that said, it seems that more opportunities have been taken away from them rather than given to them.
<hr /></blockquote> We all go to school when we are young, if you are poor then public schooling is the only route, however they are taught the same things as those in private schools. It is at this beginning point where the young student is going to start making decisions about what they want and how they are going to get it. There is also heavy burden on the parent to encourage their children to get an education. The majority of the time, I am guessing the parents are not very active in their childrens education and show little interest in the progress of the child. At this point the child might lose hope and follow in their parents footsteps or they will decide they want better for themselves. This is a choice, however the educational choice is already paid for so their are given the same opportunity to succeed as they are given to fail. It is up to the parent to encourage school, and the child to make good decisions. It has nothing to do with black or white, rich or poor. There are just as many rich white trash, as their are thugs in the streets.
[ QUOTE ]
You seem more like a cheerleader for yourself. <hr /></blockquote> Well, I take responsibility for my actions, so maybe you are right. I do not go to the government asking for free money while I sit on my butt, smoke a cigarette and watch Oprah so sure, I am a bit content.
[ QUOTE ]
I just think that poor people need better opportunities to help themselves.
<hr /></blockquote> A lot of them do not want to help themselves. I also am not talking about the poor guy that was laid off or lost his job due to outsourcing or downsizing, etc. I am referring to the people who are dead poor, grew up poor, and have done zero with their lives to help themselves.

[ QUOTE ]
It would take alot to convince me that you actually give a crap about other people.
<hr /></blockquote> I guess it is a good thing that is not my responsibility.

eg8r

nhp
03-13-2004, 10:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
...If you follow the 3 guidelines below you have a 97% chance of avoiding poverty:

1. Finish high school

2. Get a job, any job, and do not quit unless you have a better one.

3. Do not have children out of wedlock.

Are these 3 things hard to do? <hr /></blockquote>

and this is the message the Jesse Jacksons of this world should be spreading, not their "Hate Whitey" crap. <hr /></blockquote>

Just like you come with your "hate minority" crap on this board?

eg8r
03-13-2004, 10:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Just like you come with your "hate minority" crap on this board? <hr /></blockquote> Any chance you could give some examples of anyone on this board posting anti-minority threads?

eg8r

nhp
03-13-2004, 10:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Then you admit to basing your decision on religion. Great. So you would vote to tax me based on your provably irrational beliefs. <hr /></blockquote>

It's called morals. I have strong morals. I vote for people who show that they have strong morals. My morals are partly stemmed from my religious beliefs, and partly stemmed from life experiences.

[ QUOTE ]
Your discussion of the separate classes is tired old marxist crap. the same stuff that condemned countless people to lives of poverty and servitude. And caused the torture and murder of millions. <hr /></blockquote>

You have no idea what you are talking about. It was YOUR type of thinking that paved the way for a man named Hitler. Your type of "These lowlifes around us don't deserve a decent life if I can help it" propaganda is the same type of propaganda that hypnotized all of Germany when 6 million Jews were killed in concentration camps. It is YOUR type of thinking that the Hutus and the Tutsis of Rwanda used as justification to kill millions of people from the opposite tribes. It is not mine, it is yours.

Get off your soapbox, you are beyond pathetic.

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to be insulting. <hr /></blockquote>

You didn't even come close to insulting. Not even annoying. You were in the area of "heard that already", and "not another idiot feeling sorry for himself and venting on the internet".

I strongly reccommend you seek some anger-management, if not, then just sedate yourself. You're getting a little too emotional for an internet discussion.

nhp
03-13-2004, 10:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Just like you come with your "hate minority" crap on this board? <hr /></blockquote> Any chance you could give some examples of anyone on this board posting anti-minority threads?

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Not threads, but plenty of posts. Your quote of an article (which you support and find to be true) by that Horowitz guy is the same propaganda used by the KKK and 'white power' groups in this country.

eg8r
03-13-2004, 10:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Not threads, but plenty of posts. Your quote of an article (which you support and find to be true) by that Horowitz guy is the same propaganda used by the KKK and 'white power' groups in this country. <hr /></blockquote> So easy to say, however you never went back and refuted anything posted. Go back to that thread and list which parts were incorrect and why.

Your use of the word plenty puzzles me as you have stopped with just one example, and the words were not even my own. LOL

eg8r

JPB
03-13-2004, 11:53 PM
"You have no idea what you are talking about. It was YOUR type of thinking that paved the way for a man named Hitler. Your type of "These lowlifes around us don't deserve a decent life if I can help it" propaganda is the same type of propaganda that hypnotized all of Germany when 6 million Jews were killed in concentration camps. It is YOUR type of thinking that the Hutus and the Tutsis of Rwanda used as justification to kill millions of people from the opposite tribes. It is not mine, it is yours."

You are making many more assumptions about my thinking than I am about yours.

Part of your problem is that you think you have strong morals BTW. You have some strong beliefs about reality that you call morals. You are well meaning I think, but dangerous because you don't know how evil the stuff you believe in is. So your sensitivity about people led you to some unfortunate beliefs. If you really want to help people you should examine those and not tell me I can't comment on your crazy political ideas. And don't even begin to tell me my thinking led to people like Hitler. You have no clue on this and went for the standby internet argument of reductio ad hitler.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-15-2004, 07:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> Just like you come with your "hate minority" crap on this board? <hr /></blockquote>

You can't argue against my point so you call me a rascist.

I laugh at you.

Ha.

rukiddingme
03-17-2004, 09:18 AM
Lets talk about a LIVING wage...many of these GREEDY companies getting MEGA TAX breaks are turning jobs that used to be capable of giving families a living wage into minumum wage jobs therby making what used to be a decent honest job into poverty jobs...THEN IN TURN...the government has to shell out money to support these workers so they don't starve to death.
CORPORATE GREED is the culprit and not the worker.
LETS QUIT GIVING THESE MEGA COMPANIES WELFARE!
Look around you...it is getting worse all the time.
ruk

rukiddingme
03-17-2004, 09:46 AM
Most of these fortune 1000 companies pay ZERO in federal taxes...absolutely ZERO!
ruk

eg8r
03-17-2004, 09:55 AM
I have no idea what you are talking about. What types of jobs which at one point were capable of a "living wage" are now reduced to poverty pay-level jobs. I really do not understand this, and I am sure there are plenty of variables on the employees part that cause this. A wage is not set to support a person and his family, rather it is a fair agreement in pay in which the employee agree to work, and the employer agrees to pay. It is not the employers job to decide if this pay is going to be enough for the employee to support himself and/or his family. It IS the employers job to make sure the pay is sufficient to get quality work from the employee yet not too high as to cut into profits beyond a predetermined percent.

As far as corporate "greedy" companies, I am willing to bet a lot of people mistake greed for profit. They are in business to be profitable, NOT support employees.

[ QUOTE ]
LETS QUIT GIVING THESE MEGA COMPANIES WELFARE! <hr /></blockquote> Isn't this what happened out in California and a lot of the businesses left? What good did that do for the people of California?

eg8r

Wally_in_Cincy
03-17-2004, 10:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rukiddingme:</font><hr>
...CORPORATE GREED is the culprit and not the worker.... <hr /></blockquote>

Greed is good. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec
03-17-2004, 03:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> I have no idea what you are talking about. <font color="red">Thats no surprise. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color> What types of jobs which at one point were capable of a "living wage" are now reduced to poverty pay-level jobs. I really do not understand this, and I am sure there are plenty of variables on the employees part that cause this. <font color="red">Illegal aliens for instance who pay no tax. </font color> A wage is not set to support a person and his family, rather it is a fair agreement in pay in which the employee agree to work, and the employer agrees to pay. It is not the employers job to decide if this pay is going to be enough for the employee to support himself and/or his family. <font color="red">What about the unfair competition? Companies and govt want you to BUY American,but do they HIRE American or do they go for the cheapest labour? Do you think that American companies are unpatriotic?I bet you dont. There is a thing as a living wage, or at least there used to be. </font color> It IS the employers job to make sure the pay is sufficient to get quality work from the employee yet not too high as to cut into profits beyond a predetermined percent.

As far as corporate "greedy" companies, I am willing to bet a lot of people mistake greed for profit. They are in business to be profitable, NOT support employees. <font color="red"> Amazing. Without employees,you have no buisness. You expect employees to give their all for the company. The same company that will drop them like a hot potato at a moments notice.Loyalty works both ways or not? </font color>

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
LETS QUIT GIVING THESE MEGA COMPANIES WELFARE! <hr /></blockquote> Isn't this what happened out in California and a lot of the businesses left? What good did that do for the people of California?

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>


Q

eg8r
03-17-2004, 03:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Illegal aliens for instance who pay no tax <hr /></blockquote> What about them?

[ QUOTE ]
What about the unfair competition? Companies and govt want you to BUY American,but do they HIRE American or do they go for the cheapest labour? Do you think that American companies are unpatriotic?I bet you dont. There is a thing as a living wage, or at least there used to be. <hr /></blockquote> Nothing in this entire quote had anything to do with Kerry or minimum wage. Looks like you tried to steer the boat back at the end, but you really did not say anything.

[ QUOTE ]
Amazing. Without employees,you have no buisness. You expect employees to give their all for the company. The same company that will drop them like a hot potato at a moments notice.Loyalty works both ways or not?
<hr /></blockquote> You are wrong to a point...you state without employees you have no business, however this is successfully happening more and more. Call centers for US corporations are being shipped overseas and being utilized with zero American employees. This is a bit off topic but it sort of teeters on the same line and is an answer to one of my original questions. If minimum wage continues to increase will companies begin looking at overseas options? I am guessing yes? One way to avoid the potential of this happening any more than it already is, is to not vote for Kerry.

eg8r

nAz
03-17-2004, 07:56 PM
OFF TOPIC but i was wondering if anyone thinks that halliburton is a patriotic company? even though it has been found that they hide a large % of their earning in off shore banks, were the money can not easily be traced there by saving them probably hundreds on millions on taxes. makes me sick to my colon, makes me seriously consider selling the shares of stock i bought 3 months before the war. you know the one were we were in eminent danger.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

#### leonard
03-18-2004, 06:57 AM
Eg8r I think Corporate Welfare is 9 x Social Welfare. Blame the helpless poor not the thieving rich. The Repubs belong in hell and surely will go there. Some famous person said something about it being easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than a rich man to get to heaven.####Bush in 04

eg8r
03-18-2004, 07:03 AM
I am not sure is anything you just said would question patriotism. I really think this is going to far. Kind of like people announcing their "right" to something, discrimination, and racism. I guess patriotism is just the fad word right now.

If you feel so strongly about Haliburton, then follow your convictions and sell the stock (if there is any profit, then donate all of it to some local charity).

eg8r

eg8r
03-18-2004, 07:09 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Blame the helpless poor not the thieving rich. <hr /></blockquote> I would hope a large portion of the poor population would take offense to this.

As far as the Reps going to hell, maybe, maybe not. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I am sure there will be a fine bipartisan mix on their way south.

[ QUOTE ]
Some famous person said something about it being easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than a rich man to get to heaven <hr /></blockquote> I have heard this quote before, and it is probably true for the most part.

eg8r

#### leonard
03-19-2004, 07:35 AM
Eg8r I was thinking to my self who was the famous person that I was quoting. Jesus Christ who can it be I uttered then it dawned on me it was Jesus in the Gospel. ####

eg8r
03-19-2004, 12:01 PM
LOL, if anyone knows it surely would be him.

Thanks,

eg8r

nhp
03-19-2004, 01:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> Just like you come with your "hate minority" crap on this board? <hr /></blockquote>

You can't argue against my point so you call me a rascist.

I laugh at you.

Ha. <hr /></blockquote>

I don't think you are a racist, you're just a redneck.

And who the hell can argue a point against a redneck?

Iowashark
03-19-2004, 01:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr>
And who the hell can argue a point against a redneck? <hr /></blockquote>


Peggy Bundy? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

nAz
03-19-2004, 01:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>

I don't think you are a racist, you're just a redneck.

And who the hell can argue a point against a redneck? <hr /></blockquote>

Another Redneck? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

NHP I really do not think Walley is a racist, he is just a republican. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif and Eg8r is Pat Buchanan's bridge partner. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
j/k fellas /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Ok no more name calling stick to the main topic of this post!... which is to deflect all criticism away from Bush and his failed policies and try to make Kerry look like a moron.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-19-2004, 01:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr>
I don't think you are a racist, you're just a redneck. <hr /></blockquote>

Thank you for the compliment. Better to be a redneck than a liberal.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-19-2004, 02:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr>

Ok no more name calling stick to the main topic of this post!... which is to deflect all criticism away from Bush and his failed policies and try to make Kerry look like a moron.
<hr /></blockquote>

naz we had a stock market crash at the end of clinton's term, corporate scandal also began under clinton, a recession that started under clinton, then 9/11. yet the unemployment rate is only 5.6%. how has bush failed?

ps. I don't think kerry's a moron, just a pompous ass /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

nAz
03-19-2004, 02:37 PM
Dude read this aritcle... i know i know he writesfor the NY Times sohe is full of sh!t... http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/business/8221824.htm?1c

some quotes...

"It's true that there are two employment surveys, which have been diverging lately. The establishment survey, which asks businesses how many workers they employ, says that 2.4 million jobs have vanished in the last three years. The household survey, which asks individuals whether they have jobs, says that employment has actually risen by 450,000. The administration's supporters, understandably, prefer the second number.

But the experts disagree. According to Alan Greenspan: I wish I could say the household survey were the more accurate. Everything we've looked at suggests that it's the payroll data which are the series which you have to follow.

Bush has mortgaged the nation's future. If all of his tax cuts are made permanent, they will reduce revenue by at least three times the amount that would be needed to secure Social Security benefits at current levels for the next 75 years.

No sensible person blames Bush for the onset of the recession in 2001. But he does deserve blame for the fact that all he has to show for three years of supposed job-creation policies is a mountain of debt."

I won't even mention Iraq. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

"ps. I don't think kerry's a moron, just a pompous ass"... They both are Skull and Bones remember.

eg8r
03-19-2004, 03:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Ok no more name calling stick to the main topic of this post!... which is to deflect all criticism away from Bush and his failed policies and try to make Kerry look like a moron.
<hr /></blockquote> I don't think the main point is to deflect all criticism away from Bush, he was not even the topic. The topic was Kerry. Because we are talking about someone other than Bush, does not mean we are trying deflect criticism, it is as simple as, we are just not talking about him.

If someone is to vote for Kerry, it is a good idea to know how he stands on certain issues. To bring up these issues is not to deflect from Bush, but rather to bring to light Kerry.

eg8r &lt;~~~knows nhp cannot stop the name calling

eg8r
03-19-2004, 03:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
corporate scandal also began under clinton <hr /></blockquote> Yeah, I remember Q implying that Bush was responsible for Enron. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
03-19-2004, 03:27 PM
As far as unemployment numbers go, Naz, do you know the population being used to gather those numbers? Is this population including all small business? Don't you think small business is also considered employment? Is it possible that a lot of the unemployed from the very large businesses included in the employment survey's listed have found jobs with small businesses who are not surveyed?

[ QUOTE ]
Bush has mortgaged the nation's future. If all of his tax cuts are made permanent, they will reduce revenue by at least three times the amount that would be needed to secure Social Security benefits at current levels for the next 75 years.
<hr /></blockquote> Is there a chance that the expected revenue prior to the tax cut was inflated? Should payroll taxes (SS not included) be supporting Social security? This argument does not hold water. There is a reason they pull SS taxes out, and that is to support Social Security. The tax on SS was not reduced and currently is still at 7.65% for the individual with the company matching another 7.65%.

As far as the government revenue going down by all these figures, when are you going to start listing the increase in revenue do to the all the baby boomers retiring and cashing in on their retirement. Have you even considered this part of the revenue stream? I am guessing the tax revenue generated through this avenue will be the highest in history given the amount of people about to retire.

eg8r

Wally_in_Cincy
03-24-2004, 09:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
OK you can believe this or not but the studies have been done. If you follow the 3 guidelines below you have a 97% chance of avoiding poverty:

1. Finish high school

2. Get a job, any job, and do not quit unless you have a better one.

3. Do not have children out of wedlock.

Are these 3 things hard to do? <hr /></blockquote>

nhp,

as long as you're here,

Do you disagree with this? Or would you care to just dismiss it as rascism on my part?

nhp
03-24-2004, 05:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
OK you can believe this or not but the studies have been done. If you follow the 3 guidelines below you have a 97% chance of avoiding poverty:

1. Finish high school

2. Get a job, any job, and do not quit unless you have a better one.

3. Do not have children out of wedlock.

Are these 3 things hard to do? <hr /></blockquote>

nhp,

as long as you're here,

Do you disagree with this? Or would you care to just dismiss it as rascism on my part?

<hr /></blockquote>

I totally disagree. I believe that the people who are too lazy to do anything should get everything handed to them on a silver platter. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Of course I agree, of course any sane person agrees with that. You take a very knowledgeable but uneducated approach to this subject. It is extremely hard for me to argue with someone who takes the same stubborn stance as yourself. I have an educated stance on this situation. I have learned how the psychological aspects of being surrounded by nothing but failure has the tendency to make you a failure. Social Psychology.

You believe that everyone is on equal ground, and if they want to achieve the American dream, they just need to follow your 3 commandments to a decent life and everything will be ok.

You look at point A, then you look at point Z, thinking everything in between doesnt exist. I see the whole alphabet. Every letter between A and Z is a problem. If you are ignoring those problems, of course it's gonna seem simple to you. You are going to have a surrealistic view on the situation, therefore you are so quick to simplify everything.

There is no point in me arguing with you about this. No matter what I say, you are gonna think the same way. Do you really expect me to say, "Oh wow, Wally's right, if I just pretend all of the problems don't exist, everything becomes easy! Who cares about the poor, those lazy asses!!"

/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

eg8r
03-24-2004, 11:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Of course I agree, of course any sane person agrees with that. You take a very knowledgeable but uneducated approach to this subject. It is extremely hard for me to argue with someone who takes the same stubborn stance as yourself. I have an educated stance on this situation. I have learned how the psychological aspects of being surrounded by nothing but failure has the tendency to make you a failure. Social Psychology.
<hr /></blockquote> LOL, that is your educational foundation? Keep on going to class, you might even become a professor one day. Keep up the good fight. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
You believe that everyone is on equal ground, and if they want to achieve the American dream, they just need to follow your 3 commandments to a decent life and everything will be ok.
<hr /></blockquote> You are sadly missing the point. These are 3 very simple, attainable goals, and I cannot think of too many examples of this simple formula failing. There are plenty of poor, dejected people who pull themselves out of the hood because of these 3 simple goals that disprove everything you have posted on this subject.

Would you argue that the goals are quite simple to achieve if there is a desire?

Would you argue, if these 3 goals are met, there is a very high success rate of someone pulling themselves out of poverty?

If you were to become a shrink (not saying that is what you want to be) what would you suggest to a pro-bono type interaction with a poor person? Would you tell them what you just told us... [ QUOTE ]
I have learned how the psychological aspects of being surrounded by nothing but failure has the tendency to make you a failure. Social Psychology.
<hr /></blockquote> Sorry sir, you are going to be a failure since you grew up that way. Is that what you will suggest or would you suggest they get their GED, and find a job and keep it? You have all the answers mista-I've-got-an-education, so tell us what you say to this poor guy with no where to go. You come across as pompous towards Wally, and you don't even know his background, but since you have some college in you, you are smarter. Would you pass on the pompous attitude to the poor man that came to you for help?

eg8r

Wally_in_Cincy
03-25-2004, 07:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr>

...I have learned how the psychological aspects of being surrounded by nothing but failure has the tendency to make you a failure....<hr /></blockquote>

Believe it or not I agree with you. Kids who grow up in a house where nobody has ever worked just assume that's the natural order of things.

My point was that the Jesse Jacksons and the black ministers and the so-called black "leaders" should be preaching my 3 commandments till they are blue in the face instead of blaming rascism for the state of affairs in the inner city.

But they don't. They use poor people as pawns in their own personal cash-grab, then they drive back to their comfortable houses in the 'burbs.

Iowashark
03-25-2004, 10:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> I have an educated stance on this situation. I have learned how the psychological aspects of being surrounded by nothing but failure has the tendency to make you a failure. Social Psychology.

<hr /></blockquote>


Actually if I remember correctly, this is called self-fulfilling prophecies. Not sure if it was psychology or sociology. Anyway the point is, if you believe that because you're surrounded by failure, you will end up that way yourself. Our government isn't helping this situation by handing out freebies to those that can't do well for themselves. I'm not saying they should get nothing at all, but given the right attitude almost anyone can succeed. By succeed I mean support themselves financially. I agree with Wally, the "Jesse Jackson's today" aren't helping the problem by blaming racism and unequal opportunities. They should be preaching that anyone can do well for themselves if they believe they can. jm2c

eg8r
03-25-2004, 12:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Our government isn't helping this situation by handing out freebies to those that can't do well for themselves. I'm not saying they should get nothing at all, but given the right attitude almost anyone can succeed. <hr /></blockquote> I think some of the government freebies are why these people spend their entire lifetime in poverty. What other country offers free food, shelter, and education? Why should these people try any harder, the government is meeting their needs instead of helping push the people to meet their needs on their own.

Free education is the most amazing thing (although it is being run by the corrupt teachers union) that can be accepted by all students. This does not matter if you are black or white. Free transportation is provided also. So now there is no reason not to be at school. The government will drive your kid there, "offer" education (I say offer, because it is quite obvious some of the students are not accepting. This includes whites, blacks, hispanics, etc), and then drive them back home. If you are poor enough, they will even pay for the extended day care. On top of all that, if your school is not doing its job teaching, some governments are even paying to send your child to a private school (which is not overrun by the unions). What more can you ask for?

eg8r

nhp
03-25-2004, 12:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
LOL, that is your educational foundation? Keep on going to class, you might even become a professor one day. Keep up the good fight. <hr /></blockquote>

And what exactly is your educational foundation? When ever I mention that I'm a full time college student, I always seem to get some crack out of you. So what is your credibility based on? What gives you the position to laugh at someone who's pursuing an education?

[ QUOTE ]
You are sadly missing the point. These are 3 very simple, attainable goals, and I cannot think of too many examples of this simple formula failing. There are plenty of poor, dejected people who pull themselves out of the hood because of these 3 simple goals that disprove everything you have posted on this subject.




<hr /></blockquote>

No....you are missing the point, or avoiding mine on purpose. The amount of people who move out of the ghetto is few.

[ QUOTE ]
Would you argue that the goals are quite simple to achieve if there is a desire?
<hr /></blockquote>

lol, reread my whole post you are responding to, and then reread the second to last paragraph 6 or 7 times in a row, without blinking.

[ QUOTE ]
Would you argue, if these 3 goals are met, there is a very high success rate of someone pulling themselves out of poverty? <hr /></blockquote>

When these 3 goals are met are usually when someone pulls themself out of poverty. Now, go and do everything I mentioned above, x2.

[ QUOTE ]
If you were to become a shrink (not saying that is what you want to be) what would you suggest to a pro-bono type interaction with a poor person? Would you tell them what you just told us... <hr /></blockquote>

I don't believe there is a solution. I realize that these people are at the bottom of the economic food chain, and many of them feel cursed to have what they have, while just a few blocks away (in my city at least) you see people spending $200-500 dollars on a nice dinner. I sympathize with them, and if someone tries to help, I support them.

Generalizations. To look at a poor single mother living with her children in a cockroach-infested apartment, and not feel sad, you have to generalize. You have to be an angle-shooter, you find ways to think about a tragic situation, so that as you pass it by, you can remain smug, unnaffected in your comfortable world.

This is the same way of thinking needed to support the war in Iraq, to support Reaganomics, to do what Bush did to medicare, and the list is endless. To think that removing a non-existant threat at the cost of many lives is worth it, requires this type of thinking. To continue to support what the president has already publically retracted and admitted to being untrue, requires this type of thinking (if that's what you want to call it).

It's called the suffocation of your conscience. You lie to yourself so often that you forget about the the nagging truth. You believe your own lies, as a natural defense mechanism to stay in your comfort zone at all costs.

Yes, I am pompous because I am educated on a particular subject. I know something about it, which I share with you, so I'm pompous. I also remember you calling me anti-American because I disagreed with Bush. I come from a family of 9, we used to be poor, but now we are not. According to this logic, I must be anti-poor. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

nhp
03-25-2004, 12:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr>

...I have learned how the psychological aspects of being surrounded by nothing but failure has the tendency to make you a failure....<hr /></blockquote>

Believe it or not I agree with you. Kids who grow up in a house where nobody has ever worked just assume that's the natural order of things.

My point was that the Jesse Jacksons and the black ministers and the so-called black "leaders" should be preaching my 3 commandments till they are blue in the face instead of blaming rascism for the state of affairs in the inner city.

But they don't. They use poor people as pawns in their own personal cash-grab, then they drive back to their comfortable houses in the 'burbs. <hr /></blockquote>

Ahhh, I apologize for hinting you might be racist in another thread. If you had said it this way, I would have agreed with you. Here I agree with you 100%

Wally_in_Cincy
03-25-2004, 12:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>
...Free transportation is provided also. So now there is no reason not to be at school....<hr /></blockquote>

and don't forget they feed you free breakfast and lunch too /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

nhp
03-25-2004, 12:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Actually if I remember correctly, this is called self-fulfilling prophecies. Not sure if it was psychology or sociology. Anyway the point is, if you believe that because you're surrounded by failure, you will end up that way yourself. Our government isn't helping this situation by handing out freebies to those that can't do well for themselves. I'm not saying they should get nothing at all, but given the right attitude almost anyone can succeed. By succeed I mean support themselves financially. I agree with Wally, the "Jesse Jackson's today" aren't helping the problem by blaming racism and unequal opportunities. They should be preaching that anyone can do well for themselves if they believe they can. jm2c <hr /></blockquote>

Yes, I agree. If you preach poverty you teach poverty, in a sense.

Qtec
03-25-2004, 12:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Generalizations. To look at a poor single mother living with her children in a cockroach-infested apartment, and not feel sad, you have to generalize. You have to be an angle-shooter, you find ways to think about a tragic situation, so that as you pass it by, you can remain smug, unnaffected in your comfortable world.

This is the same way of thinking needed to support the war in Iraq, to support Reaganomics, to do what Bush did to medicare, and the list is endless. To think that removing a non-existant threat at the cost of many lives is worth it, requires this type of thinking. To continue to support what the president has already publically retracted and admitted to being untrue, requires this type of thinking (if that's what you want to call it).
<hr /></blockquote>


Its called Republican Thinking. HaHaHa


Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

eg8r
03-25-2004, 12:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
And what exactly is your educational foundation? When ever I mention that I'm a full time college student, I always seem to get some crack out of you. So what is your credibility based on? What gives you the position to laugh at someone who's pursuing an education?
<hr /></blockquote> What gives me the position...Ummmm....REAL LIFE. I am out of school and have stepped into real life. It has only been until now that I see what is taught in school has so little effect on what really happens. You are still naive and believe everything you hear in class.

[ QUOTE ]
No....you are missing the point, or avoiding mine on purpose. The amount of people who move out of the ghetto is few.
<hr /></blockquote> Nothing was avoided, I mentioned that there are enough who have pulled themselves out to prove you are wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
lol, reread my whole post you are responding to, and then reread the second to last paragraph 6 or 7 times in a row, without blinking.
<hr /></blockquote> Ok, that is like pulling out hair one by one. What are you trying to say. Wally's entire post was the fact that if you follow those 3 rules, you have the best chance of getting out of poverty. You then chimed in as an expert in the field, saying Wally is ignoring everything in between A and Z. The issue is that he is not ignoring them, but rather lumping them all in. If you follow those 3 rules you have a better chance of getting out of poverty. If you agree with that, then there is no point of your to make. If you follow those 3 rules you have a better chance, you cannot say it any different and be any more correct. The simple fact is that none of the other issue matter. If you follow those 3 rules, YOU HAVE A BETTER CHANCE TO GET OUT OF POVERTY. You can keep hanging on all the negative but it will always point back to those 3 rules. I would be willing to bet, a large majority of the people in poverty and have been there a long time, have probably failed in one of those 3 steps. There are always exceptions, but you like to ignore the majority (more often than not, you call it generalizing).

[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe there is a solution. I realize that these people are at the bottom of the economic food chain, and many of them feel cursed to have what they have, while just a few blocks away (in my city at least) you see people spending $200-500 dollars on a nice dinner. I sympathize with them, and if someone tries to help, I support them.
<hr /></blockquote> I never asked you for a solution. I asked you, if you would offer the expert advice you gave us...ie, would you tell a poor man, sorry you are poor and have lived poor so you will always be poor. That is close to what you said isn't it?

eg8r

eg8r
03-25-2004, 12:35 PM
Hey Q when are you going to step up to bat and answer the replies to your posts?

eg8r

Wally_in_Cincy
03-25-2004, 12:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr>
...I realize that these people are at the bottom of the economic food chain, and many of them feel cursed to have what they have, while just a few blocks away (in my city at least) you see people spending $200-500 dollars on a nice dinner.....<hr /></blockquote>

and that dinner means the restaurant has to hire a cook, a waitress, dishwashers, parking valets etc.

better that those people feeling sorry for themselves get one of those kobs instead of waiting for the gov't to take that $200-500 away from the wealthy and give it to them.