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cornercue
03-09-2004, 04:27 PM
can anyone tell me how talisman tips play vs moori.are they worth the price,

SpiderMan
03-09-2004, 04:59 PM
There are many Talisman/Moori discussions in the archives. For the small price difference, I prefer the Moori because the Talisman has shown a tendency toward layer separation/delamination. Separations have often occured two or three layers away from the ferrule. I've seen this on my own cues, my customers' cues, and cues that come to me bearing work of other installers. Here's a post with some general details:

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=ccb&Number=98295&Forum =All_Forums&Words=spiderman%20talisman%20separatio n%20layer&Match=And&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allp osts&Main=97583&Search=true#Post98295

If you ever get a chance to examine these tips side-by-side under a microscope, you will see big differences in quality, both raw materials and construction. Moori beats the snot out of Talisman/Hercules in quality and consistency of materials and workmanship.

BTW, of all the layered tips on the market, the "Instroke" is the best copycat of the Moori I have seen. It is an amazing likeness, even under 50X magnification. The only visible difference is the ink marking, and once installed no one could look at it and tell they had a substitute. I wonder how many installers increase profits by charging for a Moori and using an Instroke? If you don't trust your tip guy, be sure to look at the tip before he puts it on.

SpiderMan

UTAddb
03-09-2004, 05:26 PM
Like spiderman said, I have had several problems which delamination on the talis. However, I do like the feel a lot better and tony with talisman is very supportive and is sending me some more replacement tips for free. You can order them for about $5 each on their website which is usually much cheaper than mooris. Never tried those instrokes, but they sound good.

Troy
03-09-2004, 06:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cornercue:</font><hr> can anyone tell me how talisman tips play vs moori.are they worth the price, <hr /></blockquote>
Some will say they've had de-lamination problems with Talisman tips, but I've been using and installing Talisman Pro's for a few years and have had zero problems after my initial learning curve. Unless you buy a large quantity, they'll cost more than $5 each directly from Talisman Billiards website. For the difference in price, I suggest Talisman Pro.

Troy

Barbara
03-09-2004, 07:11 PM
Marty,

What are the hardness values of the Instroke lams compared to Talisman and Moori? Do the Instroke tips have consistency in their hardness and what would that range be?

The reason why I ask is because I've had Mooris and Talismans (currently on now) and there is a difference in the hardness, even though they're designated as a certain grade. This was the same with the Mooris and it makes me uneasy to see any tip just cut off to try to match the tip I do like on my other shaft.

Barbara~~~just trying to cut down on wasting my Cueman's time...

But what do I know?... I'm just some broad...

Cueless Joey
03-09-2004, 07:23 PM
I've never come across a Moori delaminating.
Talisman? Plenty. My local repairman returned his batch after swearing he wouldn't use them again two years ago.
He gave it another chance late last year. A few held up and then they started delaminating.
Everest however has never delaminated on him.
Hercules mediums have delaminated on him as well.

Sid_Vicious
03-09-2004, 07:25 PM
Barbara...I tried the Instroke that Spiderman put on one cue, and that tip hit like a medium, the old Moori medium, a nice feel as I remember it even though I'm a hard man(I didn't really say that) now. Could be that there are different grades, but that one in particular hit just like a Schon tip to me. I'm sold on Moori tips, even at 2X the Talismans($10 vs $5), "Hey, these Moori tips last forever, for me...sid

Kato
03-09-2004, 10:09 PM
I used Morri for 3 years and have used Tailsmn for the better part of 2. I've never had a tip delaminate on either. I like the Tailsman Pro Medium and have since WesK introduced me to them.

Kato~~~very satisfied Tailsman user.

Troy
03-09-2004, 10:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr>.....Talisman? Plenty. My local repairman returned his batch after swearing he wouldn't use them again two years ago.
He gave it another chance late last year. A few held up and then they started delaminating.
<hr /></blockquote>
Either
A) I'm the only lucky one receiving the only good quality Talisman Pro Tips, or,
B) I have learned a trimming technique that does NOT weaken the laminations.
I do NOT use a razor blade pulling from the ferrule toward the end of the tip which would IMO weaken the lamination.

Troy

tateuts
03-09-2004, 10:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Barbara~~~just trying to cut down on wasting my Cueman's time...

But what do I know?... I'm just some broad...
<hr /></blockquote>

Barbara,

It's nice to have a woman hanging around here.

If you think we're jerks now, you can't believe what we would be like if we thought no women were watching! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Chris

bigalerickson
03-09-2004, 10:56 PM
After my first talisman delaminating on me (provided by my tip guy), I handed my tip guy a pointer sheet printed off of the talisman website on installing the tips. Two tips later, no problems.

-Alex - a guy who who had to be told his tip was delaminating.

Cueless Joey
03-10-2004, 12:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigalerickson:</font><hr> After my first talisman delaminating on me (provided by my tip guy), I handed my tip guy a pointer sheet printed off of the talisman website on installing the tips. Two tips later, no problems.

-Alex - a guy who who had to be told his tip was delaminating. <hr /></blockquote>
He has read that.
He's had no problems with Everest, Sniper, Moori and Instroke.

bigalerickson
03-10-2004, 01:12 AM
Have you played with them? A buddy of mine just installed one, hasn't chalked it up yet.

SpiderMan
03-10-2004, 08:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Marty,

What are the hardness values of the Instroke lams compared to Talisman and Moori? Do the Instroke tips have consistency in their hardness and what would that range be?

The reason why I ask is because I've had Mooris and Talismans (currently on now) and there is a difference in the hardness, even though they're designated as a certain grade. This was the same with the Mooris and it makes me uneasy to see any tip just cut off to try to match the tip I do like on my other shaft.

Barbara~~~just trying to cut down on wasting my Cueman's time...

But what do I know?... I'm just some broad...
<hr /></blockquote>

Barbara,

I'm sorry, I can't answer your Instroke question because I don't personally play with them. I've installed them, and looked at them under microscopes (that's how I rate them as a great Moori copy in appearance), but I can't comment on their play characteristics or their durability.

Yes, the hardness ratings seem a little arbitrary. To me, the Talisman mediums feel about as hard as Moori quick. I don't think they play as well, though.

SpiderMan

Sid_Vicious
03-10-2004, 08:37 AM
Kato...Two questions, one...do you have your tips shortened a lot when you get an install? Two, if answer one is "no", have you really studied a Talisman after a couple of months, looking for a loose layer 2-3 layers from the ferulle? There's usually a definite dull line indicating seperation, but a loupe or microscope is really needed for certainty. I spot delams on other's cues in a casual glance, and yet they seem perfectly happy with them the way they are. Not me, I want a compact tip all the way through, and I'm sure you do too. Congrats for your success!

I have a few still in tact on cues I have, but they were cut way down, otherwise I've lost most all of the Talismans I had installed(or installed myself) in rather short order. I used to think it was because I was stingy and left them too tall, so I trimmed more on the next one, and yet I have a Moori on a cue I play with daily that is REALLY tall,,,not a problem after 2-3 months, and I break with this one some times. I've never had to deviate from my install methods for the Moori tips either...sid

SpiderMan
03-10-2004, 08:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> I've never come across a Moori delaminating.
Talisman? Plenty. My local repairman returned his batch after swearing he wouldn't use them again two years ago.
He gave it another chance late last year. A few held up and then they started delaminating.
Everest however has never delaminated on him.
Hercules mediums have delaminated on him as well. <hr /></blockquote>

Joey,

I've had similar experiences with Talisman delamination, and no one is more careful than I about overheating layered tips on the lathe. There are posters here (Scott, Troy, and a few others) who have had good experiences with Talisman, but they seem to be in the minority. But, without a microscope, many of the subtle Talisman failures are difficult to spot. The tip will just become a little "dead" and you won't know it's a failure because it's one spongy layer (usually one or two layers up from the ferrule) rather than an outright delamination. I've looked at many "good" Talismans under magnification and seen the problem in it's early stages. The owners often didn't realize the tips were going bad, as it can manifest as a subtle and gradual deadening of the play characteristics.

I was involved in the initial testing of the Talisman prototypes, and fed back this information to Tony along with the recommendations on maximum tip height vs ferrule diameter that he publishes with his installation instructions. Shortening the finished tip does greatly cut down the failure rate, probably due to reduced mechanical leverage for off-center hits to flex the base of the tip.

Also, I think that today's Hercules tips are more or less identical to Talismans, so that would explain your friend's Hercules problems as well. I received a batch of Hercules from Atlas Billiard Supply last year that appeared to be Talismans. They had the same inconsistency in layer thickness, the same wavy edges to the glue lines, and even the same lettering and ink color on the marked surfaces. I called Atlas and emailed them photomicrographs, thinking they had an inventory mixup problem, but I was told that I had the correct material.

What's the catch? I don't know, but it appears that the "23-layer" Hercules is a myth, unless they are counting 11 layers of leather, 10 layers of glue between them, and a layer of varnish on top and bottom of the finished tip /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Another layered tip to be leery of is the Adam layered water buffalo. I tried some of these last year, and was initially pleased with the play characteristics. They were similar to the Tiger tips in appearance, and had play characteristics similar to Moori H. But, after a week or two of hard usage, they began to change in feel. A microscopic evaluation showed a spongy layer that had broken down. I installed a total of three of these tips, and two had similar problems. I don't recommend them, either.

SpiderMan

Rich R.
03-10-2004, 08:58 AM
Marty, have you been able to compare the new Moori tips with the older Moori's?

I keep reading that the new Moori's are much harder.
I've been using medium Moori's for the last couple of years and I really like them, but I need a new tip very soon and I am wondering if I should switch to the soft. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Any help would be appreciated.

Chris Cass
03-10-2004, 09:01 AM
Hi Troy,

I'm thinking a lot of the problems with the Talisman tips are due to the burnishing, tip height vs ferrule width, blk markering the sides(a no no) and the arch of the tip. I've also had problems with the third layer too. The glue they use seems to show on the layers on the top of the tips.

I don't care too much for the Moori new Q rated version vs the old Moori H. They seem to hit harder with less action. The Moori has one quality that I do like vs the Talisman and that's the way the tip wears. It seems the layers of the Moori are more round and the glue isn't seen at all. The Talisman' layers aren't round and more like a flower type thing. I've had problems with the Talisman before but after talking with Tony I've cam to the conclusion that I mess too much with the tip.

These layered tips don't require anything and they're best left alone. The arch was the big thing in the ctr popping off on me a couple of times. During a miscue is when it happened both times. Bad shooting doesn't help. LOL

I think you couldn't have a better person in Tony though. He bends over backwards to help anyone in regards to the tips. That counts for a lot.

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan
03-10-2004, 09:30 AM
Sorry, I haven't used any of the "new" Moori's yet. I think Sid bought a batch of Moori tips recently, but I understand they were also old stock obtained off Ebay.

SpiderMan

Cueless Joey
03-10-2004, 09:49 AM
Thanks for the info Marty.
My mentor went back to try Talisman Pro M's after I told them to give them a try. They seemed fine then his customers kept coming back due to delamination. He put on one for me as well, and it too delaminated.
We tried to give Tals one more chance but he cannot afford to have his customers keep coming back for reinstallation. Hercules mediums gave him problems too as I mentioned. But the hard ones have not. Everest and Sniper have been great. Instroke has had no problems as well. But, it doesn't quite have the same cueaball action as the Everest and Sniper have.
He's getting a box load of Mooris. With Mooris prices now, why would he even risk going back to Tals?

piglit
03-11-2004, 01:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigalerickson:</font><hr> Have you played with them? A buddy of mine just installed one, hasn't chalked it up yet. <hr /></blockquote>

Holy Hell! Get him on the phone...he must be stopped, for his own safety!!

-pigy

dr_billiards
03-11-2004, 02:20 PM
I have tried all the laminated tips, plus just about every other tip in the world I think. What I still continue to use is a Triangle that has been squashed in a vice and has had its sides superglued.I have used a Triangle tip for the past 15 yrs. This tip hits nice and hard, and usually lasts a long time. They ( Triangles ) also play well without my tweeks! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Kato
03-11-2004, 04:31 PM
Sid, I've got to be honest that I've never looked at one under a microscope. I'm not a person that studies these things. I mainly notice performance drop offs and at that time I'll change tips. I don't think they are shaved down that much but to be honest I'm not there to watch the install.

Kato

Sid_Vicious
03-11-2004, 07:09 PM
A microscope is a final inspection only but that faint, discolored line 2-3 layers up has always been easy for me to spot. As far as the performance drop, I usually have little trouble noticing the crisp hard hit going away at the same time, so maybe a player wanting more of a subtle hit would say it's fine. I dunno, your's are ok I guess...sid

bigalerickson
03-11-2004, 07:23 PM
I think it will be gone shortly. He played with his break cue most of the night last night, and left early.

Sid_Vicious
03-11-2004, 07:42 PM
Rich...As Spiderman replied, I did buy 10 of the Quick tips, supposedly a round #2 of the Moori tips, and yes, they hit harder than the "old" Moori tips. I like them, but if you are not a fan of hard tips, I'd say to back off to the to a lesser grade of Moori...sid

Sid_Vicious
03-11-2004, 08:02 PM
Chris...I agree, Tony is totally upright in his satisfaction issues, but having said that I must add that if the breakdown happen to those players who do not install their own tips, then they will have to pay for the install all over again, dwarfing the replacement cost of the tip, not to mention the playing down time. As far as the burnishing and twiddling with the tips being a culprit to breakdown,,,why is it that I have never had a Moori fail during all of my installations, none, and I install same-o, same-o way I always install? My take is that the Moori is simply built best between the two, so why, at ten bucks versus $5 for the Talisman, would someone choose to gamble on the Talismans over the Moori for a layered tip? I will not personally use a tip that has to have "special" attention during install when the Moori is available and has stood the test of "time &amp; time again." sid~~~likes a tip which doesn't nag me, "Am I still good?", "Please don't burnish me harshly", "Cut me down more", "Quit twiddling on me or I'll just fall apart"

TalismanTony
03-11-2004, 08:30 PM
Hi Guys,

I unfortunately don't get much free time these days to visit here but I dropped in today and have read through the posts in this thread.

In defense of my products, I would like to say that a large majority of my wholesale customers are long time repeat customers like Troy, cue repair guys and the various cue makers listed on my web site and they report very, very few problems with Talisman tips delaminating.

I very much appreciated the chance to try to work through the problems that Sid and Spiderman had and to this day I still cannot explain why you guys have such a high incidence of problems. I really wish I could.

I continue to produce the very best products that I can from the best raw materials I can buy and stand by all of my products 100%.

My guarantee is pretty hard to beat, 100% satisfaction or your money back.

Its Friday morning here now and I have a ton of things to do with Hopkins and the BCA trade show coming in a few weeks, so I am out of here.

Best regards,
Tony.

Scott Lee
03-11-2004, 10:04 PM
I've played with every tip on the market, except the "new" Moori tips. I like the old Moori tips, but the Talisman tips play just as well, imo, and at the time, cost considerably less money per each tip. I've had Talisman installed by my cuemaker, as well as my latest Talismans (installed expertly by Spiderman), and have NO PROBLEMS whatsover. That was almost a year ago. I play almost every day, and I break with my playing cue. Talisman tips are, imo, EXCELLENT, both in playability and cost-effectiveness.

Scott Lee

stickman
03-11-2004, 11:16 PM
I haven't installed hundreds of them yet (Talismans), but it has been 20 or more over the past year. I have had one breakdown so far. It was my first install. I believe it was due to using a mushroom burnisher. After I read the installation tips, I experienced no more problems. I always instruct the owners of the reinstalled tips to stop playing with their tips and just play pool. The only tool I recommend is the Willard tip scuffer/shaper and only during break-in. A mushroom trimming tool can be used, also. If someone needs the mushroom removed, I chuck it into the lathe and fix it for free. It only takes a few minutes. Once the tips are broke-in, all I use is chalk. I love not having to fiddle with my tips. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ryushen21
03-12-2004, 12:54 AM
I have been playing with a Moori 3 (installed by SpiderMan) and i don't see myself changin to another tip. I tried out the Talisman that was on UTAddb's cue. it plays good, but the Moori seems more responsive to me.

I think that one of the key issues in this debate is installation. I previously had a Moori on my backup shaft, that was installed by a local billiard store. It did not play very well. It mushroomed after one session and required burnishing at least once a day to maintain shape and playability. Even though it was the same kind of tip as my current one, it was not up to par. With either of these tips, definitely get it installed by someone who is very skilled and will take the time to do it right.

Rich R.
03-12-2004, 04:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Rich...As Spiderman replied, I did buy 10 of the Quick tips, supposedly a round #2 of the Moori tips, and yes, they hit harder than the "old" Moori tips. I like them, but if you are not a fan of hard tips, I'd say to back off to the to a lesser grade of Moori...sid <hr /></blockquote>
Thanks Sid, I appreciate the information. Before I get a new tip, I will have to find out if they have an old batch of tips or a new batch.

Sid_Vicious
03-12-2004, 06:56 AM
I'd personaly just order a grade below my desired hardness and take their latest, otherwise try searching E-bay for "original" Mooti tips. Good luck..sid

Sid_Vicious
03-12-2004, 07:02 AM
I say this in all honesty...nobody "crafts" a tip install like Spiderman. I myself have installed several Moori tips using nothing but a Willard and the spinning tool, no problems to data. As far as the billiard store tip, I'd wonder if you really got a Moori. Not one Moori of mine has mushroomed an iota after install...sid

Rich R.
03-12-2004, 09:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I'd personaly just order a grade below my desired hardness and take their latest, otherwise try searching E-bay for "original" Mooti tips. Good luck..sid <hr /></blockquote>
Sid, although I can replace tips, if I have too, I don't have the proper tools to do a good tip replacement and I don't want to mess up ivory ferrules doing it with hand tools. I will be having the tip replaced by a reputable repairman. I just have to ask if he has the new or the old stock, before choosing which to install.

ryushen21
03-12-2004, 02:04 PM
I would have thought that too. The problem was that i supplied the tip myself. So i know that it was a moori. I think what made it go wrong was them not trimming it down to the right size to fit the ferrule properly. But, it doesn't really bother me that much anymore, since my tipwork now goes to SpiderMan.

SpiderMan
03-12-2004, 03:27 PM
There's been a lot of discussion in this thread regarding layered-tip failures, and a lot of disparity in opinions regarding durability of certain tips. It makes me wonder how our personal opinions of "what's a failure" differ from one another.

For example:

TYPE 1 - An obvious failure occurs if the tip layers separate, delaminate, or otherwise lose integrity with the ferrule.

TYPE 2 - A less-obvious failure occurs if the layer which "comes off" is a small piece of top layer that finally gives up the ghost and comes off the crown. Many players would just pull out the shaper and re-round the tip each time this happens, assuming this is reasonable maintenance.

TYPE 3 - This failure is often missed - a layer of leather within the stack, perhaps near the bottom, goes soft or spongy. This failure might never be noticed by many players, because the tip does not come apart and indeed may be played with until it is worn out. But, the "hit" will deaden a little, the tip will lose it's "burnished" look (if actually burnished) right at that one layer, and perhaps chalk dust will collect and show up as an off-colored ring around the tip at the dead layer. If the tip is clean, verification of a "Type 3" failure may be difficult without a microscope. If you pry on a Type-3-failed tip while viewing it by microscope, you can watch the layers on each side of the soft layer move with respect to one another. Equipment-sensitive players like Sid V will notice the change in sound of the hit.

So here's the $64,000 question -

If you say you've never had a failure, does this really just mean you've never had a Type-1 failure? Would you necessarily know about a Type-2 failure, or would your customer just reshape and play through it? Finally, do you periodically retrieve tips after months of use and give them a microscopic examination for Type-3 failures? I do, and the Type-3 failure is the one I find in about a quarter to half of the Talisman samples.

Last year I put on three Talisman pro H tips for Scott Lee. If they are still installed on his next Dallas visit, I will ask him to let me give them a microscopic examination and take photos.

SpiderMan

stickman
03-12-2004, 04:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>
TYPE 1 - An obvious failure occurs if the tip layers separate, delaminate, or otherwise lose integrity with the ferrule.

<font color="blue"> Fortunately, I have only experienced one, due to my own fault. </font color>

TYPE 2 - A less-obvious failure occurs if the layer which "comes off" is a small piece of top layer that finally gives up the ghost and comes off the crown. Many players would just pull out the shaper and re-round the tip each time this happens, assuming this is reasonable maintenance.

<font color="blue"> I might be wrong, but I would think that wear would necessarily occur over time with the rounded tip end of all tips, be it laminated or not. I've never seen large pieces coming off the tip ends. Surely you're not saying that a Moori never wears down. </font color>

TYPE 3 - This failure might never be noticed by many players, because the tip does not come apart and indeed may be played with until it is worn out

<font color="blue">You're right. I haven't noticed it yet. I don't have a microscope, only a magnifying glass.</font color>

Last year I put on three Talisman pro H tips for Scott Lee. If they are still installed on his next Dallas visit, I will ask him to let me give them a microscopic examination and take photos.

<font color="blue">I will be anxious to see your results. </font color>

<font color="blue">Marty, I add to that, your personal recommendations attest to your quality work. I just have yet to see these things. Admittedly, I have a limited amount of experience, and provide service in a small rural area. I have put on Talisman tips for just a little over a year.

Jim </font color>

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Ralph S.
03-13-2004, 01:23 AM
I had a Talisman medium layered tip put on my Jacoby cue a year ago. There has not been any trouble whatsoever. No mushrooming, delamination, or any other problems. I love the way they play and have no complaints.

Cueless Joey
03-13-2004, 02:57 AM
Marty,
The mediums were the ones we had problems with.
The hard ones, Talisman and Hercules, had no delamination problems.

Chris Cass
03-13-2004, 06:46 AM
Hi Sid,

My honest opinion? I really think it's in the adhesive. Don't know why the layers don't come out round. Everest does.

Regards,

C.C.

Chris Cass
03-13-2004, 06:52 AM
I'd like to see the pics too. Try not to get Scotts smile in the pic though. Those pearly whites will blind ya. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.~~likes spideys pics always..

Chris Cass
03-13-2004, 06:55 AM
Hi Joey,

I had the problems with the Talisman H but I think it was what I was doing that may have been the problem. That middle layer did pop right off though. I took it down but it scarred me.

Regards,

C.C.~~has to have faith in every tip or adios....

Sid_Vicious
03-13-2004, 08:36 AM
Spiderman...You already know my definition, same as yours, but that's partly cuz you and I have learned and studied the same "tip-game-plan." I'm wondering if players who like the softer hit rather than a hard hit, are masking out the sensation of knowing when the delams begin. I myself have no problem since I enjoy the crisp "tink" of a pristene, hard tip. Just a thought.

Can you dig up an old pic of yours showing a failure in the 2-3 layer and stick the pic inside your post here on the CCB? A picture speaks a thousand words...sid

SpiderMan
03-15-2004, 10:39 AM
Stick,

I'm going to follow Sid's suggestion and check my computer for saved pictures of a "Type-3" failure. I'll put it in the post if I can figure out how, otherwise I'll put it on Yahoo and link to it.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>
TYPE 1 - An obvious failure occurs if the tip layers separate, delaminate, or otherwise lose integrity with the ferrule.

<font color="blue"> Fortunately, I have only experienced one, due to my own fault. </font color>

TYPE 2 - A less-obvious failure occurs if the layer which "comes off" is a small piece of top layer that finally gives up the ghost and comes off the crown. Many players would just pull out the shaper and re-round the tip each time this happens, assuming this is reasonable maintenance.

<font color="blue"> I might be wrong, but I would think that wear would necessarily occur over time with the rounded tip end of all tips, be it laminated or not. I've never seen large pieces coming off the tip ends. Surely you're not saying that a Moori never wears down. </font color>

TYPE 3 - This failure might never be noticed by many players, because the tip does not come apart and indeed may be played with until it is worn out

<font color="blue">You're right. I haven't noticed it yet. I don't have a microscope, only a magnifying glass.</font color>

Last year I put on three Talisman pro H tips for Scott Lee. If they are still installed on his next Dallas visit, I will ask him to let me give them a microscopic examination and take photos.

<font color="blue">I will be anxious to see your results. </font color>

<font color="blue">Marty, I add to that, your personal recommendations attest to your quality work. I just have yet to see these things. Admittedly, I have a limited amount of experience, and provide service in a small rural area. I have put on Talisman tips for just a little over a year.

Jim </font color>

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

stickman
03-15-2004, 10:56 AM
Thanks, Marty. I saw some of your closeup photos at some time a long time ago. (not showing this problem) What do you use to take them?

Jim~~~Wishes he had a digital camera. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

SpiderMan
03-15-2004, 12:23 PM
I use an outdated-but-good Olympus 3000, with an additional close-up lens and a lot of patience. Digital is great for this stuff because you can see the results immediately and know if you need to adjust something to get the right shot.

SpiderMan

mike_in_iowa
03-15-2004, 12:49 PM
this weekend I needed a new tip. After reading this thread I thought Uh oh, better get the moori again. While I was going to pick up a moori from a friend, the cheap side of me was saying get 3 talimans for the price of a moori. The evil side of me said get them both and you'll have 4 tips. So I did.

I used my willards tip machine to put the talisman medium on. It went on smoothly with no hassle. trimmed up nice, shaped well and ready to go. I lightly and I mean lightly burnished it. No speed, little pressure really trying to keep the heat down.

After I played with it for a hour( it was making a tink sound), I gave it a closer inspection and sure enough it was delaminating about a 2/3 down. I yanked it off(the tip) and put another talisman on it. A buddy of mine was over during this time and he wanted to goto muellers sporting goods(where I bought the talismans) so off I went.
They cheerfully gave me a new talisman but said if it happened again they would give another brand of tip.

When we got back I worked over the talisman(shaved,shaped no burnish). I played with this tip for about an hour and just did not like the hit or sound from the tip. Off comes the second talisman.

I then put the moori on. It was a medium. Then I went to a tourney(the best weekly tourney in america). I played like ass with my new tip. Too worried about the tip. It seems like I need to play with a new tip for a little while before I am comfortable with it. Today will be a better day.

I did get my 2 cans of quick clean from the guy who got me the moori. I rushed home after the tourney and cleaned my table right away. And then fell asleep. Maybe today I will see how it looks

mike athens

stickman
03-15-2004, 08:51 PM
I have an awsome Canon EOS Elan 7E. I have an all in one, printer, scanner, copier, and fax, but I have never been able to use the scanner. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

stickman
03-15-2004, 08:56 PM
I'm not sure why I've had such good luck with them. All of the Talismans I've installed have been Mediums, and the biggest part of them by far have been Water Buffalos. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Troy
03-15-2004, 09:58 PM
I would have no reason to go to such great lengths to inspect a tip under a microscope unless a customer had a complaint. As a result, I guess I've never seen a "TYPE 3 failure".
IMO you are pushing this "failure" thing a bit far.
By the way, "prying" the layers will almost certainly cause them to be pried apart...
Pretty obvious to me... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>TYPE 3 - This failure is often missed - a layer of leather within the stack, perhaps near the bottom, goes soft or spongy. This failure might never be noticed by many players, because the tip does not come apart and indeed may be played with until it is worn out. But, the "hit" will deaden a little, the tip will lose it's "burnished" look (if actually burnished) right at that one layer, and perhaps chalk dust will collect and show up as an off-colored ring around the tip at the dead layer. If the tip is clean, verification of a "Type 3" failure may be difficult without a microscope. If you pry on a Type-3-failed tip while viewing it by microscope, you can watch the layers on each side of the soft layer move with respect to one another. SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Sid_Vicious
03-16-2004, 08:31 AM
Spiderman should have stated not to "pry on the tip" but "press on the tip" as if you were slowly
compressing the outside edge of the tip, like what happens in full force during an
english shot. Prying gets the same result, but as you said, it is possibly destructive in itself and
a bad system for producing a point on this matter. Prying doesn't matter once the pressing shows the breakdown has begun though, it's already a crap tip at that point.

Now, whether you have had complaints or not, that layer 2-3 layers up from the
bottom that delams, is visible with the naked eye, and to a player really serious about
the consistency of the hit, it's also easy to "feel and hear" the change during
breakdown.

The microscope is used as a powerful tool to see the very early beginnings of these
delaminations, not meant to be a necessary item for detection, give it time, it'll become worse on it's own. I don't guess I can speak for all players, but I'll state emphatically for myself, "If I have a breakdown on
a tip in any stage of the breakdown, then I definitely want to know ASAP and get
that inferior tip in the trash where it belongs." Plain and simple...sid

Troy
03-16-2004, 11:08 AM
IMO the term "obsession" comes to mind. Can't feel any difference in the tip but check it under a microscope anyway. Curious way to check the "feel" of a tip, very curious.

Reminds me of the guy wanting me to re-taper his shaft from 13mm to 12.75mm. This guy kept telling me I hadn't done the job right, but he was using a caliper measuring in thousandths. He was only satisfied with the job after buying his very own digital caliper measuring in mm to verify my work. When he "saw" the taper was 12.75mm on his new digital caliper, he became instantly satisfied that it "felt right". Yup, very curious indeed.

Troy

SpiderMan
03-16-2004, 12:12 PM
Troy,

I'm not prying the layers apart. I was trying to describe what can be seen at a failure site once discovered by other means. It's sort of like wiggling a loose tooth. If it's not already loose, it doesn't wiggle. But if a layer is broken down, just a little nudge will make it move.

Have you ever seen a broken-down tip on a house cue, where it behaves more like a sponge than leather? Imagine something like that effect, existing in only one layer of a layered tip. The glue is still intact, so there's no delamination, but one layer of leather has gone soft. You can see the thing move when you "wiggle" the tip.

This type of failure is not necessarily going to result in a customer complaint, because a customer may not realize that the integrity is compromised and the hit is somewhat deadened. I believe it happens gradually, so the user "gets used to it". But, since the failures occur primarily in one brand of tip, I do accept it as a strong sign of less-than-robust construction.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> I would have no reason to go to such great lengths to inspect a tip under a microscope unless a customer had a complaint. As a result, I guess I've never seen a "TYPE 3 failure".
IMO you are pushing this "failure" thing a bit far.
By the way, "prying" the layers will almost certainly cause them to be pried apart...
Pretty obvious to me... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>TYPE 3 - This failure is often missed - a layer of leather within the stack, perhaps near the bottom, goes soft or spongy. This failure might never be noticed by many players, because the tip does not come apart and indeed may be played with until it is worn out. But, the "hit" will deaden a little, the tip will lose it's "burnished" look (if actually burnished) right at that one layer, and perhaps chalk dust will collect and show up as an off-colored ring around the tip at the dead layer. If the tip is clean, verification of a "Type 3" failure may be difficult without a microscope. If you pry on a Type-3-failed tip while viewing it by microscope, you can watch the layers on each side of the soft layer move with respect to one another. SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Troy
03-16-2004, 12:29 PM
I finally replaced the Talisman Pro Soft tip on my every day 1-Pocket shaft after about 15 months use /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif 'cuz the hit started to "feel" too hard for my taste. No de-lam, no spongy layers, no mushroom.

Troy

SpiderMan
03-16-2004, 12:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> IMO the term "obsession" comes to mind. Can't feel any difference in the tip but check it under a microscope anyway. Curious way to check the "feel" of a tip, very curious.
Troy
<hr /></blockquote>

"Obsession" may be a strong term. But, in a market flooded with similar products, it is reasonable to examine the details. It is interesting that certain traits can be identified, measured, and related to particular brands.

I will say, though, that a microscope is not necessary other than for verification. If you play side-by-side with a pristine tip and one with a moderate Type-3 failure (yes, there are degrees), you will definitely hear the difference. As I acknowleged, this will not necessarily result in a customer complaint because he either doesn't do the comparision or he assumes that the change he hears is normal.

Having both access to a microscope and earshot of Sid's complaints, I began checking tips done by many installers. Independent of who put it on or how, I soon realized that there really is a difference in product durability.

I'm not just picking on Talisman - I found similiar issues with "Adam" layered WB tips. There just aren't enough of them around to get a lot of confirmation.

SpiderMan

BLACKHEART
03-16-2004, 12:34 PM
I'm still amazed that players will pay twice as much, for a layered tip, that has so many problems. When they could get a WATER BUFFALO tip that lasts for ever, doesn't mushroom, plays great &amp; has no lamination or break-in problems...JER

SpiderMan
03-16-2004, 12:36 PM
It could be that the Talisman WB doesn't have the same breakdown problems as the Talisman Pro. I tried the WB several years ago, but the feel didn't suit my game so I didn't keep it on long enough to comment on durability. None of the local players around here uses one except for Sid V. I think he may still have a WB on one of the cues in his collection.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
03-16-2004, 12:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> I'm still amazed that players will pay twice as much, for a layered tip, that has so many problems. When they could get a WATER BUFFALO tip that lasts for ever, doesn't mushroom, plays great &amp; has no lamination or break-in problems...JER <hr /></blockquote>

Different strokes, etc. I play with a triangle myself, and change them about every three to six months because I like the height within a certain range. I could go much longer, but since they're cheap why not indulge?

Most of my experimentation is to gain playing experience with different products so that I feel more comfortable making recommendations. I've also done occasional freebies with one or two players that I see often, so that I could get their feedback and track a particular tip as it ages.

Sid V likes to experiment and trade off, hence the many cues and many tips, but I believe he was nearly as happy with the black WB tips as with the Mooris. I know he traded half a box of them off me last year.

SpiderMan

buddha162
03-16-2004, 01:33 PM
Hey Spiderman,

Which tip in your opinion has less of a mushrooming problem: Moori Quicks or Triangle?

Every Moori Q I had put on (there's been 3) mushroomed slightly over the first month or so. After trimming, they stay true for the duration of the tip, though one of them still managed to flare out a little. I'm very OCD when it comes to mushrooming tips (and a host of other pool-related things), so even a little is enough to drive me up a wall.

Also, are the Triangles harder/softer than Moori Q's, and are they easy to burnish? What about tip-life?

Thanks alot,
Roger

SpiderMan
03-16-2004, 02:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote buddha162:</font><hr> Hey Spiderman,

Which tip in your opinion has less of a mushrooming problem: Moori Quicks or Triangle?

Every Moori Q I had put on (there's been 3) mushroomed slightly over the first month or so. After trimming, they stay true for the duration of the tip, though one of them still managed to flare out a little. I'm very OCD when it comes to mushrooming tips (and a host of other pool-related things), so even a little is enough to drive me up a wall.

Also, are the Triangles harder/softer than Moori Q's, and are they easy to burnish? What about tip-life?

Thanks alot,
Roger <hr /></blockquote>

Roger,

In my opinion -

The Moori Q (or H) feels harder than the Triangle. When left fairly tall, say about 0.180" sidewall with a dime crown, the Triangle feels about medium to me.

All tips seem to mushroom a little, it's a matter of how they are trimmed, how they are played, and how sensitive you are to the change. I sometimes trim an "angle" of one or two degrees on the sidewalls to somewhat counter the early mushrooming.

Mushrooms are interesting - most single-layer tips bulge in a simliar fashion, with the exception that black WB tips exhibit a curious flare confined almost wholly to the area just beneath the crown. Don't ask me why, but I observe this predominantly on black WB tips.

Layered tips like the Moori, if played and not re-trimmed, seem to mushroom in each individual layer. In other words, each layer will gradually bulge a little. After a while the tip, when viewed under a magnifier, appears to have "ribs".

I guess it's a matter of personal preference which of these is more bothersome. I play mostly with Triangles, and it seems that after an initial re-trim or two, they pretty much hold their sidewalls. Of course, so do the Mooris.

Life? I BELIEVE the layered tip outlasts the single-layer, but truthfully what we have is a lot of anecdotal evidence. I'd like to see a scientific test under controlled conditions.

SpiderMan

Sid_Vicious
03-16-2004, 03:32 PM
I'd settle for a black WB, but the Moori has more action(IMASOO), plus the Moori has never been any problem during my entire exposure to them. Frankly Blackheart, the LePro is probably just as good tip, when chosen for a preferred hardness. One thing that I have personally enjoyed about the Moori besides the way it moves the CB, is the absence of maintenance and the length of life. Once I install a Moori Q or H, and super glue the sidewalls, I never have any flair or mushrooming, maybe it's the hardness coupled with the reinforcing of the sides, but I'd doubt that I'd get more than a shaving of dust particles if I were to attempt a trim on a "played-with" Moori. The WB would cough up more material by far, even though it is still about my second tip of choice....sid

Btw, Spiderman and I vary in one aspect of our final trims. He does his in his lathe and I do a complete trim in the Willard. Mine have a built-in taper which is probably more than his, so mine may not obviously flair, and yet it may occur to a degree. sv

mworkman
03-16-2004, 04:25 PM
I've got a Moori Med 3 and I like the way it plays. I was stupid enough to install it myself and trimming the edges with an ultimate tip tool. Now I'm living with a scratched ferrel that looks blue with all the chalk that sticks to it.

Thats why I like the Lepro's because you can install them yourself without making such a mess.

Has anyone been able to figure out how to install a Moori or any 14mm tip for that matter with just basic tools and without scratches?

stickman
03-16-2004, 05:06 PM
The Porper mushroom glazer, and the Porper little shaver can both create scratches in the ferrules if you don't use extreme caution. I'm not knowledgable enough to say whether the Willard tipper endangers the ferrules or not. I know that those that use it, like it though. I bought my lathe for just a little more than I would have paid for the Willard, but you can still mess up a ferrule with the lathe, if you aren't paying attention. If you are only planning to do your own tips, you should consider if it is worth it, to make the investment or just pay someone to do them.

mworkman
03-16-2004, 05:13 PM
The more I think about it, the more I think I should stop being so tight and just fork over the $30.00 each time I want a new Moori put on. Which should only be about once a year by the looks of my tip now (had it on for about 5 mo. with a lot of life left).

buddha162
03-16-2004, 05:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>
Roger,

In my opinion -

The Moori Q (or H) feels harder than the Triangle. When left fairly tall, say about 0.180" sidewall with a dime crown, the Triangle feels about medium to me.

All tips seem to mushroom a little, it's a matter of how they are trimmed, how they are played, and how sensitive you are to the change. I sometimes trim an "angle" of one or two degrees on the sidewalls to somewhat counter the early mushrooming.

Mushrooms are interesting - most single-layer tips bulge in a simliar fashion, with the exception that black WB tips exhibit a curious flare confined almost wholly to the area just beneath the crown. Don't ask me why, but I observe this predominantly on black WB tips.

Layered tips like the Moori, if played and not re-trimmed, seem to mushroom in each individual layer. In other words, each layer will gradually bulge a little. After a while the tip, when viewed under a magnifier, appears to have "ribs".

I guess it's a matter of personal preference which of these is more bothersome. I play mostly with Triangles, and it seems that after an initial re-trim or two, they pretty much hold their sidewalls. Of course, so do the Mooris.

Life? I BELIEVE the layered tip outlasts the single-layer, but truthfully what we have is a lot of anecdotal evidence. I'd like to see a scientific test under controlled conditions.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Spiderman,

Thanks, that's exactly what I'm looking for!

I've noticed the curious way a layered tip mushrooms as well, especially when I try to burnish a Moori that's flared out a bit. Certain layers (the ones sticking out more) will get shiny, and others won't.

I might put a triangle on my spare shaft to test it out.

How do you burnish your tips? I like mine nice and shiny, but don't have a lathe. Right now I just use spit and matchbook covers, which do a pretty good job. But I find that the results are inconsistent; sometimes it takes a nice sheen, sometimes it actually looks duller than before I burnish. I tend to wet the sidewalls pretty liberally, and burnish hard (squeaky sounds).

-Roger (wish I lived in Texas)

SPetty
03-16-2004, 05:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote buddha162:</font><hr>(wish I lived in Texas)<hr /></blockquote>When your wish comes true, you'll have to get yourself one of those popular bumper stickers: "I wasn't born in Texas but I got here as quick as I could!"

Sid_Vicious
03-16-2004, 08:21 PM
Roger...I slipped you Spidey's secret burnish stuff in a PM. Guard it with your life ;-) sid

Troy
03-16-2004, 10:05 PM
I'm sitting here trying to figure out how installing a Le Pro and trimming it to the ferrule size is easier than trimming a Moori to the ferrule size.

I've posted before about how much I appreciate the Ultimate-Tip-ToolŪ 'cuz it brings me lots of work... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Troy...~~~ Uses both a Willard's and a lathe.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> I've got a Moori Med 3 and I like the way it plays. I was stupid enough to install it myself and trimming the edges with an ultimate tip tool. Now I'm living with a scratched ferrel that looks blue with all the chalk that sticks to it.

Thats why I like the Lepro's because you can install them yourself without making such a mess.

Has anyone been able to figure out how to install a Moori or any 14mm tip for that matter with just basic tools and without scratches? <hr /></blockquote>

mworkman
03-17-2004, 05:24 AM
It's easier to install the Lepro because it is allready 13mm. The Moori is 14mm. My stick is 13mm. So you are not grinding away at it for an hour.

Troy
03-17-2004, 09:55 AM
Your problem is that you're "grinding away at it for an hour". Using the correct equipment is essential -- in any task. "Grinding" tells me you're NOT using the correct equipment.

I put a 14mm Talisman on a customer's 9-10mm Snooker shaft. Sure it looked strange until I trimmed it to size and cut down the height. Didn't take much more time than any other tip installation.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> It's easier to install the Lepro because it is allready 13mm. The Moori is 14mm. My stick is 13mm. So you are not grinding away at it for an hour.
<hr /></blockquote>

SpiderMan
03-17-2004, 10:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote buddha162:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>
Roger,

In my opinion -

The Moori Q (or H) feels harder than the Triangle. When left fairly tall, say about 0.180" sidewall with a dime crown, the Triangle feels about medium to me.

All tips seem to mushroom a little, it's a matter of how they are trimmed, how they are played, and how sensitive you are to the change. I sometimes trim an "angle" of one or two degrees on the sidewalls to somewhat counter the early mushrooming.

Mushrooms are interesting - most single-layer tips bulge in a simliar fashion, with the exception that black WB tips exhibit a curious flare confined almost wholly to the area just beneath the crown. Don't ask me why, but I observe this predominantly on black WB tips.

Layered tips like the Moori, if played and not re-trimmed, seem to mushroom in each individual layer. In other words, each layer will gradually bulge a little. After a while the tip, when viewed under a magnifier, appears to have "ribs".

I guess it's a matter of personal preference which of these is more bothersome. I play mostly with Triangles, and it seems that after an initial re-trim or two, they pretty much hold their sidewalls. Of course, so do the Mooris.

Life? I BELIEVE the layered tip outlasts the single-layer, but truthfully what we have is a lot of anecdotal evidence. I'd like to see a scientific test under controlled conditions.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Spiderman,

Thanks, that's exactly what I'm looking for!

I've noticed the curious way a layered tip mushrooms as well, especially when I try to burnish a Moori that's flared out a bit. Certain layers (the ones sticking out more) will get shiny, and others won't.

I might put a triangle on my spare shaft to test it out.

How do you burnish your tips? I like mine nice and shiny, but don't have a lathe. Right now I just use spit and matchbook covers, which do a pretty good job. But I find that the results are inconsistent; sometimes it takes a nice sheen, sometimes it actually looks duller than before I burnish. I tend to wet the sidewalls pretty liberally, and burnish hard (squeaky sounds).

-Roger (wish I lived in Texas) <hr /></blockquote>

Like SPetty said, I got to Texas as soon as I could /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Before you burnish the "used" layered tip, it will help if you use some fine sandpaper to sand the "ribs" down. It's best if you have a crutch tool or other means to spin the shaft mechanically, but it can be done twisting the shaft by hand. Just be very careful not to sand on your ferrule! If you're not a careful and meticulous type, you can make a mess of scratches.

Use something between 600 and 1000 grit paper, cut a small piece, and use it on the tip sidewalls as if you were burnishing. When you get the sidewalls really flat and smooth, then burnish however you see fit and it will work much better than with the ribs. This is a lot of work by hand, therefore I recommend mechanical spinning.

On some tips, depending on the finish I'm looking for, I might apply a very thin layer of quick-drying "super glue" as a final finish. You have to be very careful not to make a mess, and I'd only try this if I had the tools to spin the shaft. Plus, I wouldn't recommend doing this on any brand of layered tip that has potential delamination problems, as the solvents in the glue might hasten a failure. For what it's worth, a thin layer of SG spun quickly onto a Moori has never yet given me any problems. On the other hand, if you overdo anything it can be an issue, so don't get it "wet" with the stuff. I only finish a tip with SG after it's already burnished slick, so that it doesn't soak in. And definitely don't use a "laundry marker" to darken sidewalls on the Moori (or any other layered tip).

SpiderMan

mworkman
03-17-2004, 02:15 PM
Ok Troy, What are the proper tools? And how much should I expect to spend?

Troy
03-17-2004, 05:20 PM
I have invested in a Lathe and a Willard's set up with all the accessories to accommodate the various sizes from 9mm to 13.5mm. Even after buying the lathe I still use the Willard's.
I estimate my equipment investment at about $2500.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mworkman:</font><hr> Ok Troy, What are the proper tools? And how much should I expect to spend? <hr /></blockquote>

mworkman
03-18-2004, 07:11 AM
Could it be done with just the Willard's, and how much is that?
I'm not someone who is going to be doing everyone else's cues, so I don't want to spend a lot.

Mark

Sid_Vicious
03-18-2004, 08:02 AM
The Willard runs about $300, at least the Willard tip install unit does. Mine works fine, but trimming the sidewalls is something you really need to be carefull about once you get close to the ferulle. There's a technigue in doing the sidewalls, not terrible, yet dangerous to nicking the ferulle if you aren't careful. As far as shaping goes, you'll need to buy(or build) something else, because the basic Willard does not come with it's own shaper included. You don't really sound like someone who needs $300 tied up in tip install equipment to me. I personally enjoy being able to do my own tip work regardless if I make asn extra buck or two.

But for just a little more you can buy an actual lathe. Harbor Freight sometimes sells them for a little over 300 hundred. Just a thought...sid

Troy
03-18-2004, 09:20 AM
Correct Sid... Seems to me that mworkman should just find a local repair person.

The $300 you mention only includes one (1) trimmer set and one (1) size collet. To cover the range from 9mm to 13.5mm, I have all the trimmer sets and three (3) collet sizes. Then there's the set up for shaping and burnishing -- more investment.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> The Willard runs about $300, at least the Willard tip install unit does. Mine works fine, but trimming the sidewalls is something you really need to be carefull about once you get close to the ferulle. There's a technigue in doing the sidewalls, not terrible, yet dangerous to nicking the ferulle if you aren't careful. As far as shaping goes, you'll need to buy(or build) something else, because the basic Willard does not come with it's own shaper included. You don't really sound like someone who needs $300 tied up in tip install equipment to me. I personally enjoy being able to do my own tip work regardless if I make asn extra buck or two.

But for just a little more you can buy an actual lathe. Harbor Freight sometimes sells them for a little over 300 hundred. Just a thought...sid <hr /></blockquote>

stickman
03-18-2004, 09:58 AM
You have to add the additional parts for a lathe also. Tool bits, drill chuck, collets, steady rest, and other misc. parts.

buddha162
03-19-2004, 05:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Roger...I slipped you Spidey's secret burnish stuff in a PM. Guard it with your life ;-) sid <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Sid, I received and replied.

I need to get one of those toy-lathes. Just for tip-jobs.

-Roger

buddha162
03-19-2004, 05:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>When your wish comes true, you'll have to get yourself one of those popular bumper stickers: "I wasn't born in Texas but I got here as quick as I could!" <hr /></blockquote>

lol! I don't seem to see any of those in Jersey.

Well, I'll want to be wherever Spiderman is, only because his tip-work looks sooo perfect in those pictures (and I have a serious case of OCD on cue tips).

-Roger

buddha162
03-19-2004, 05:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>
Like SPetty said, I got to Texas as soon as I could /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Before you burnish the "used" layered tip, it will help if you use some fine sandpaper to sand the "ribs" down. It's best if you have a crutch tool or other means to spin the shaft mechanically, but it can be done twisting the shaft by hand. Just be very careful not to sand on your ferrule! If you're not a careful and meticulous type, you can make a mess of scratches.

Use something between 600 and 1000 grit paper, cut a small piece, and use it on the tip sidewalls as if you were burnishing. When you get the sidewalls really flat and smooth, then burnish however you see fit and it will work much better than with the ribs. This is a lot of work by hand, therefore I recommend mechanical spinning.

On some tips, depending on the finish I'm looking for, I might apply a very thin layer of quick-drying "super glue" as a final finish. You have to be very careful not to make a mess, and I'd only try this if I had the tools to spin the shaft. Plus, I wouldn't recommend doing this on any brand of layered tip that has potential delamination problems, as the solvents in the glue might hasten a failure. For what it's worth, a thin layer of SG spun quickly onto a Moori has never yet given me any problems. On the other hand, if you overdo anything it can be an issue, so don't get it "wet" with the stuff. I only finish a tip with SG after it's already burnished slick, so that it doesn't soak in. And definitely don't use a "laundry marker" to darken sidewalls on the Moori (or any other layered tip).

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Spiderman,

I tried the black marker once and it really messed up the tip. Can't burnish it after that either.

The superglue seems like a great idea. Shiny sidewalls and mushroom-proofing all at the same time! Too bad I don't have a lathe. I don't think I'll be trying to do anything by hand, unless I get really desperate.

Thanks again for all the detailed info!

-Roger

Sid_Vicious
03-19-2004, 11:21 AM
Roger...The willard I got came with a choice of tip inserters and I opted the std combo for 13 &amp; 14mm since I never do anything less. All in all the Willard has been fun and fairly easy, but the spinner was a key ingredient. You get more machinery in the lathe, but simplicity is sometimes the best route. There's a trick or two for adjusting for the trim on the trimmer to get it to do the 14mm tips without having to buy the separate trim tool, let me know if and when you ever get a Willard and I'll fill you in...sid

SpiderMan
03-19-2004, 03:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> There's a trick or two for adjusting for the trim on the trimmer to get it to do the 14mm tips without having to buy the separate trim tool, let me know if and when you ever get a Willard and I'll fill you in...sid <hr /></blockquote>

Amen, a very simple setup variation can keep you from having to buy the extra $40 worth of tooling.

SpiderMan

Sparky
03-21-2004, 10:16 PM
I have both tips. I have a Moori on one shaft and a Talisman on the other. I have not used the Talisman yet. The Moori is great. I love it.

Sparky /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif