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View Full Version : Which Pro Player(s) Have The Best Fundamentals?



TomBrooklyn
04-26-2002, 09:19 AM
Some pros, although they hit them great, have quirks to their stroke that you wouldn't necessarily recommend as being the ideal stroke to copy.

If you were going to point to a professional player(s) as having the kind of textbook stroke to emulate, who would it be? Why?

Cueless Joey
04-26-2002, 09:23 AM
Parica or Deuel.

Kato
04-26-2002, 09:31 AM
That's a really good question. Most pro's (especially my favorites) have an awful lot of quirks. I'd have to go with Allison as the most fundamentally sound. Of the male pro's that I've seen on T.V. or live I'd say maybe Buddy or Troy Frank as being very sound. Overall though, Allison is completely sound with no quirks I can find. So still, so smooth, so fluid.

Kato~~~~jealous

PoolFan
04-26-2002, 09:34 AM
Altough there are many, many to emulate my number one pick would be Jim Rempe. He has great fundamentals from stance, grip, bridge, stroke follow-through, everything. He is textbook.

Others I also like Nick Varner, Mike Sigel and Kim Davenport.

Players that are not textbook, Keith McCready is tops on my list. I love to watch him play, but I don't understand how he can hit the ball straight with that side-arm stroke.

Philipinos players don't have the standard american stroke, but they are obviously very effective. Their stroke seems to have more feel to it. I remember when Reyes first came on the scene, a top pro said that he stroked the cue as if he were playing the violin and thought that Efren would never be a top player. How wrong he was!! It just goes to prove the basic fundamentals can be deviated from, but it does build a solid foundation if you are textbook.

04-26-2002, 09:41 AM
Ralf Souquet or John Horsfall.

Stauber

04-26-2002, 09:50 AM
Although I have not seen every current male pro and cannot at all claim my assessment is exhaustive, Deuel and Parica are two good choices. Still, I have to say that watching Allison Fisher play is like watching a good instruction tape. Copying her would be the best thing to do for most players. Efficient and effective, relaxed and having an easy mastery of her stroke -- that's how Fisher appears to me.

Steve

04-26-2002, 10:08 AM
I'm with Kato on this. Before I even saw his post I would have suggested Buddy and Troy. I've played Troy on a couple of occasions and he is indeed a solid, foundamentally sound player. He seems to get the job done without a lot of flash. In fact, you would not think that he is world class, he makes everything look so easy.

Buddy is truly amazing. His game is so sound. He machine like stroke...methodical. You never expect the guy to miss.

I also like Deuel, Souquet, Schmidt, and Dallas West.

Regards,

Doug

04-26-2002, 10:16 AM
Men: Ralf Soquet and John Horsfall

Women: Allison Fisher

04-26-2002, 11:03 AM
Without a doubt, Buddy Hall.

Rich R.
04-26-2002, 11:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: PoolFan:</font><hr> Players that are not textbook, Keith McCready is tops on my list. I love to watch him play, but I don't understand how he can hit the ball straight with that side-arm stroke. <hr></blockquote>
It should be against the law to take a beginning pool player within 100 miles of Keith McCready. I've seen him play and can not figure out how he can make a shot. LMAO. Rich R.

JohnnyP
04-26-2002, 11:31 AM
Has Allison Fisher ever commented about aim and pivot or backhand "english"? Even if you don't use very much side, you still have to compensate, right? You can't really tell from watching on tv. Maybe you could on a flat screen.

What would be really great, would be to have the players on wireless mikes give a running commentary of what they are doing, where they are aiming, thinking out loud, etc. Doesn't Vivian do that a little?

04-26-2002, 11:47 AM
The best stroke I've seen: Denis hatch and Rodney Morris. Perfect natural smooth stroke.

Thierry Layani

PoolFan
04-26-2002, 12:04 PM
Will Denis be practicing that nice stroke behind bars?

Voodoo Daddy
04-26-2002, 12:44 PM
Fundamentally sound? The names that comes to mind are old school guys like Steve Mizerak and Ray Martin. The younger crowd...Dennis Hatch, Rodney Morris and Cory Deuel. But the man with all the clubs in his bag...Toby Sweet, no question the smoothest I have ever witnessed!

Voodoo...glad to be posting again.

Rod
04-26-2002, 12:53 PM
Buddy Hall hits them real sweet.

Ross
04-26-2002, 01:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: JohnnyP:</font><hr> Has Allison Fisher ever commented about aim and pivot or backhand "english"? Even if you don't use very much side, you still have to compensate, right? You can't really tell from watching on tv. <hr></blockquote>

Yes, she has said she doesn't use it. From her website:

"As for putting english on the ball, I use, what is called, parallel english. For example, if I am lining up a ball and putting left or right english on the shot, I move my foot so that I am parallel with where I would normally start. My cue is then running parallel instead of cross stroking where you start in the middle and adjust you point of aim from there. If you start in the middle and adjust, you are really just twisting your cue inwards or outwards. So, when I am shooting, if I am going to put right english on the ball, I move my whole stance over to the right a bit. Then it is a case of how much your cue deflects and how much distance you are shooting the cue ball. If the two balls are close together, then you don't have to compensate very much. This is really learned by trial and error. You need to stay down on the shot and watch where that cue ball is going to learn this."

Interestingly, she teaches at Paul Potier's Pool School in Paradise and he is a big advocate of "backhand englsh." I wonder what she does when they get to that lesson-- disagree with Paul, teach Pauls' method, offer hers as an alternative, or keep quiet about the issue?

Kato
04-26-2002, 01:33 PM
Shoot, Voodoo is dead red as usual. Toby is super sweet and is very pure. Hadn't thought about his game but he was/is definitely world stroke all the way.

Kato~~~glad Voodoo is posting again.

04-26-2002, 02:39 PM
Got ro watch Keith this past week in Chelmsford,MA. I agree, he'a a real treat to warch. As for textbook players, my vote is for Jimmy Reid. Jim R.

BillPorter
04-26-2002, 03:31 PM
Tom, Here's a player no one has mentioned yet--Danny Harriman. Not flashy, but rock solid fundamentals. He'd be a great player to emulate. And beyond his pool game, he's a classy guy. Very polite, friendly, etc. I vote for Danny.

Drake
04-26-2002, 05:02 PM
Buddy and Cory!

04-26-2002, 06:08 PM
Parica. He lets the cue do all the work. Makes monster shots with hardly any effort at all.

Fran

Barbara
04-26-2002, 06:18 PM
Fran,

Please email me with your email address. I need to get in touch with you on a personal matter.

Barbara

Barbara
04-26-2002, 06:47 PM
I really can't about the men - I haven't seen them enough to really watch their style. I'd rather watch their position play to learn something. Ralf Souquet has a nice, consistent stroke. All of the Filipinos have that "choo-choo" stroke that I can't watch or I'll start imititating it.

For the women I would have to say the Loree Jon Jones, Ewa Laurance, Dawn Hopkins, Fran Crimi, Allison Fisher, Karen Corr and Kim Shaw (soon to be a pro) have classic form. They're each a bit different, but just about the same in being effortless at stroking. I appreciate the way that Jennifer Chen and Ying-Ya Lin stroke, too. Theirs is an artistic way of stroking with not being so much level with their cue as they are rhythmic.

Barbara~~~trying to get my own stroke ingrained....

cheesemouse
04-26-2002, 07:15 PM
Ladies= Fisher
Men= Buddy

ted harris
04-26-2002, 10:15 PM
I can tell you about a player I just saw for the first time, who has the most impressive stroke I have seen in a long time; the Spaniard, Francisco Diaz. Excellent fundamentals.

Cuemage
04-26-2002, 10:19 PM
I would also vote for Jim Rempe...and Allison for the women.

Tha Cuemage

04-26-2002, 10:21 PM
Tony Watson

Hawk

Cuemage
04-26-2002, 10:23 PM
When I took a lesson from Allison, she showed me both ways. I liked the fundamental approach to her parallel english, but I rarely miss with backhand english. Allison even said I seemed to use it really well. She said she advocates parallel, but they also teach backhand in the Pool School.

Tha Cuemage

Tommy_Davidson
04-27-2002, 01:42 AM
&gt; I have always believed that Mike Sigel,in his prime,had the best stroke style and effectiveness-wise. Mike always had incredible cue ball control,due to the fact that he had perfect fundamentals. He also had awesome recovery power,in case he got out of line or was left a tough shot. No one has ever pocketed the long ball like Mike,Johnny and Earl included. As far as raw power in their stroke,Earl,Mike Massey,and Larry Nevel come to mind. To me,the players with the most aesthetically pleasing strokes are Sigel,Danny Harriman,Buddy Hall,Jim Rempe,and Shannon Daulton. The Filipino influence on American players should not be underestimated either. Of the Filipinos,my personal fave is Rudolfo Luat,although Efren gets the most out of his stroke,and Bustamante has the most unorthodox style of anyone playing the game. Ever notice that when he is using the bottom half of the cue ball,he lines up every shot with low left,then sweeps back through the ball? Tommy D.

04-27-2002, 09:03 AM
For me Mike Sigel,s stroke is the most beautiful and effective.I love to watch the tapes with Mike Sigel.

Misel

Tom_In_Cincy
04-27-2002, 04:57 PM
Alen Hopkins has one of the worst strokes in POOL history for the advanced level of play he displays.

He is an example of how to adapt you style to perfection. I wouldn't recommend anyone copying his style..

In fact, last year when I was with a bunch of guys at the US Open.. I told a friend to watch all the players... the one that had the worst form was Alen Hopkins.. my friend found him rather easily.. Alen really stands out..

cueball1950
04-27-2002, 07:49 PM
i like tommy kennedy's stroke and he is fun to watch and will answer any questions you have.
another would have to be mike zuglan or maybe mike sigel or dallas west

04-27-2002, 08:48 PM
toby is nice and a great stroke, however to put him in the same sentence as mizerac, im not sure is in the best interest of anyone who has ever seen the greats of the greats. mizerac was the greatest player ever. not only could he not be beaten in his time , but if he was playing today there would be no one take his crown. i can see once again where you can say sweet is awesome , but to put him in the same catagory as mizerac, maybe not .and lets never forget the 9 - ball great reyes.

04-27-2002, 08:51 PM
minnesota fats

Cueless Joey
04-27-2002, 09:37 PM
Tommy has a stroke? LOL
I'm not a fan of point, pull back once and shoot.
I like the way Parica and Deuel stroke their shots.
Strickland's got a stroke that came from heaven too.
Andam is another stroker I love to watch.

Ralph S.
04-28-2002, 12:59 AM
MY votes would go to Allison Fisher and "The King" Jim Rempe.
Ralph S.

04-28-2002, 03:42 AM
Have any of you men playrers ever tried to adopt the Euorpean style stance. Like Allison Fisher or Karen Korr.
If so how has it worked for you ?
If not why not? Just courious .

04-28-2002, 07:27 AM
Buddy &amp; Allie, Hall being the best ever. BF KISS

cheesemouse
04-28-2002, 09:03 AM
Jack, I've tried the squared up stance and it feels suprisingly good, I can't power break from that position though.

MikeM
04-28-2002, 10:26 AM
That's the stance I was taught from the beginning. I got a free lesson when I bought my table and one of the two coaches taught "the snooker stance". I've tried to shoot other ways , but I feel much more comfortable squared up and low to the table.

MM

Voodoo Daddy
04-28-2002, 11:25 AM
Lynn...I can appreciate your opinion but this post isnt about who's the best. Fundamentals is the post and while you mentioned Reyes {possibly the best player ever, not just in 9-Ball} I wouldnt call Efren anything other than amazing. As these men mentioned get older, I seem to grow fonder of them but the facts remain...Toby Sweet...in the fundamental department is IMO the smoothest on the planet.

Voodoo...seen 'em all...tells it straight

Doctor_D
04-28-2002, 03:37 PM
Good afternoon:

When I started play pool in January of 2001, I began taking lesson from Gerda Hofstatter. She has taught me, and I still use today, the Snooker style stance and stroke which is working very well for me.

I love watching Allison and Karen compete in their matches.

Dr. D.

04-28-2002, 04:41 PM
The late Irving "the Deacon" Crane had the best fundamentals I have ever seen. Sigel learned quite a bit from him, I do believe.

04-28-2002, 04:47 PM
Mizerak also had great fundamentals. Does anybody know how he is doing?

04-28-2002, 05:05 PM
If you ever see a player using that side-stroke, than that should tell you that player has been around the game since a small fry. (side-stroke style developed as he was most likely unable to be high enough over the table to use a conventional stroke)

Don't underestimate this type of player!

cueball1950
04-28-2002, 08:43 PM
while in chelmsford last week i posed that question about steve to claude bernachez. claude says he is doing ok and i believe ,if memory serves me right, he also said steve opened a little room in fla. and has some other business interest going as well......................mike

TonyM
04-29-2002, 12:00 AM
Jack I use a Snooker style stance. However, this was what I was taught, as I started out on the Snooker table here in Canada. Rather than say a "European style", I think that the term "Snooker style" might be more accurate (for the nitpickers among us). After all, many of the fine male European players use what I would term a "pool stance", and not a Snooker stance.

Tony
-also doesn't like the terms "closed or open", and prefers "square" or "parallel" ... I can visualise that...

04-29-2002, 04:50 AM
Tony,
I stand corrected Il'll keep that in mind.
Jack

Alfie
04-29-2002, 05:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> Tony- also doesn't like the terms "closed or open", and prefers "square" or "parallel" ... I can visualise that... <hr></blockquote>
square- footsies are 90 deg to the cue
parallel- footsies are 0 deg to the cue
Is this true?

What do you call it when the footsies are 40 deg to the cue?

Kato
04-29-2002, 07:51 AM
Lynn, nobody said anything about being the best ever, we're talking about stroke. Also, Toby didn't book alot of losers, wonder if he and the Miz ever played for $$$$$$. Voodoo may know the answer to that.

Kato

Kato
04-29-2002, 07:57 AM
Jack, I've experimented with every style imaginable and I'll tell you it is a nice style. Very square to the target but not for everyone.

Kato

04-29-2002, 08:05 AM
Actually, under pressure, Hopkins' short stroke is actually probably more reliable then any of the others you see. It's not pretty, but it sure is effective.

Kato
04-29-2002, 08:06 AM
Lynn, sorry to basically reply the exact same post as Voodoo. I didn't read the whole thread. I guess me and the old man think a little alike.

Steve, thank you for everything if I haven't said it lately but all the info you've given me is really sinking in and I'm in dead punch. Not Toby punch mind you but at least it's punch.

Kato

Voodoo Daddy
04-29-2002, 10:27 AM
Disclaimer: This is a story told to me many years ago, I wasnt there to verify but it has been told by several people.

When the Miz's dad had the pool room in Perth Amboy, N.J., Steve played there alot. On one occasion Toby went to play the Miz some 9-Ball...when he came through the front door the Miz was spotted sneaking out the back door. I have witnessed them play each other 9-ball in the 80's and 90's, once in my home room during a Florida Tour event but bad health and other interest's have neither man playing now. They are both friends of mine and would never talk out of school againest either of them.

Voodoo...has a Miz shrine in his office and still thinks Toby had the BEST stuff.

Voodoo Daddy
04-30-2002, 12:01 AM
Kato...I will share my knowledge with you until death. You are one of the deserving ones. Just one thing...give the old man crap a rest, will ya?...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Voodoo...259 years old in dog years

04-30-2002, 09:43 AM
I FEEL THAT JHONNY ARCHER HAS THE BEST FORM IN THE GAME. SIT AND WATCH HIM SOMETIMES.THE SAME STROKE,SPEED HEAD MOVE IS ZERO. GREAT PLAYER AND GREAT FORM..

Kato
04-30-2002, 10:10 AM
I'm sorry Voodoo, you're not old, you're mature.

Kato~~~not old but certainly a long way from spry.

jjinfla
05-01-2002, 05:57 AM
Allen Hopkins will, without a doubt, win the worst form contest. And he will be the first to admit it along with his wife. But that might explain why he was such a successfull road player. Anybody watching him would be thinking "chump, fish". Good article in BD this month about Hopkins where he explains his unorthodox style. "Had to shoot fast before he fell". As for for best stroke/form I like Mika. Jake

jjinfla
05-01-2002, 05:58 AM
Allen Hopkins will, without a doubt, win the worst form contest. And he will be the first to admit it along with his wife. But that might explain why he was such a successfull road player. Anybody watching him would be thinking "chump, fish". Good article in BD this month about Hopkins where he explains his unorthodox style. "Had to shoot fast before he fell". As for a pro with the best stroke/form I like Mika. Jake

05-01-2002, 02:53 PM
That was a joke right? When Fats addressed the ball his chin was two feet above the cue.

cuechick
05-04-2002, 07:06 AM
There is an excellent (and maybe one of the few if not only) Accustat with Allison playing Vivian. It is an instruction in perfect tecnique! With excellent comentary by Gerda. The contrast of Vivian's gusty by sometimes sloppy game reenforces the importance of Allison's flawless execution.
There is also a very good tape where Johnny Archer commentates HIS OWN match(after it was taped) and talks about what was in his head. I'd love to see more of those, it's a great idea. I often repeat Johnny's southern draw in my head, " I just like to laaaag this ball in," or " from here it's just connect the dots..." It's kind of soothing /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif
I also plan to study my Buddy Hall position tape this weekend...glad to see many people chose him.