View Full Version : Glue problem
03-23-2004, 11:30 AM
In the last few week I have had several moori tips come off. I am using the Dura quick gel. I can't figure why they keep coming off and it is only the moori. Any ideas? Also, has anyone tried the glue called Insta-flex ? I have read a little about it and it sounds pretty good. It is a ca that dries flexible and not brittle. I think Barranger used to sell it
03-23-2004, 12:02 PM
I can't explain why it's only on the Moori tips, but I do know that there have been extensive problems with shelf-life on any products with cyanoacrylate based glues. Moisture and temperature considerably affect the glue's shelf life. I don't know where you store your glue but I keep mine in my house where temperatures are controlled.
I haven't had a Moori or any tip pop off off and all I use is super-glue type of products like yours. I know of a manufacturer who guaranteed a two-year shelf life on their glue and had 1,000 bottles returned six months later that would no longer bond well. It was stored in a hot warehouse and the stuff went bad.
I've bought fresh stuff from the hardware store that was already bad.
I'm starting to use the Krazy Glue "original formula for leather and wood" and it seems to be working well at this point. If I open a tube I try to use it in a couple of months - but that's about it.
03-23-2004, 12:07 PM
If you take a magnifier and look at both pieces (tip and ferrule) after the tip comes off, which piece did the glue actually "let go" of? Is the ferrule bare and the glue stayed on the tip, or is the backside of the tip bare and the glue stayed on the ferrule?
03-23-2004, 12:17 PM
One person is coming over later to have two redone. Both came off almost right away. I will take a good look at them. I am wondering if something they do causes it. maybe they use silicone on their shafts and it gets under the tip somehow making the new tip not want to stick. Some ferrules also are harder to glue to but these are Shuler shafts and they should be no problem. I never had this happen before and now it has happened several times in the last week. I use up the glue pretty quick so it is not old. My shop is climate controlled so that is not the problem. It is a mystery
03-23-2004, 01:03 PM
Last shaft that i put a Moori tip on had the same problem. I ended up having to take sandpaper and take all the burnish off of the bottom of the tip. It stuck just fine after that.
03-23-2004, 02:41 PM
I think you are right, I use a disc sander on the wood lathe to sand the backs of tips (turning slow) and I just make them smooth and that's it. I thing I am going to try taking off a little material in case there is some kind of coating on there or something. It is only Moori tips, no others I have problems with.
03-23-2004, 02:45 PM
You're probably onto something about the foreign substances. Whichever surface did not stick may have been contaminated. I'm puzzled that it only occured with one style of tip, though. If it turns out the glue came loose from the tips and not the ferrules, I'd begin to wonder if the tips have had a lot of handling by someone with dirty or oily hands.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> One person is coming over later to have two redone. Both came off almost right away. I will take a good look at them. I am wondering if something they do causes it. maybe they use silicone on their shafts and it gets under the tip somehow making the new tip not want to stick. Some ferrules also are harder to glue to but these are Shuler shafts and they should be no problem. I never had this happen before and now it has happened several times in the last week. I use up the glue pretty quick so it is not old. My shop is climate controlled so that is not the problem. It is a mystery <hr /></blockquote>
03-23-2004, 02:59 PM
I use a piece of sandpaper on a flat surface and figure 8 it. There is a two part epoxy called plastic welder that will work on the PVC ferrules. They have it in wallyworld.
03-23-2004, 03:36 PM
For what it's worth, I think Spiderman might be onto something. My guess is that assuming the glue is good, it might be a contamination problem. Maybe try wiping with alcohol after sanding both surfaces.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rocky:</font><hr>.....take all the burnish off of the bottom of the tip. It stuck just fine after that. <hr /></blockquote>
IMO that's the cure -- proper prep can make all the difference.
Also, I cut a "tic-tac-toe" pattern on both the tip and ferrule. Seems to help a bunch... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
03-24-2004, 09:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> One person is coming over later to have two redone. Both came off almost right away. I will take a good look at them. I am wondering if something they do causes it. maybe they use silicone on their shafts and it gets under the tip somehow making the new tip not want to stick. <hr /></blockquote>
When you looked at these, which surface had rejected the glue?
03-24-2004, 12:24 PM
The ferrule was fine, the glue let go from the tip. I think just sanding the back of the tip better will solve the problem. Just as a note, here is how I get a tip back on that came off. It is also good if a new tip is almost the same size as the ferrule. With a new tip that is just a little bigger then the ferrule you can use a little piece of paper, (about .003) behind the shaft to center the tip. It is just a small piece of aluminum angle.
03-24-2004, 01:51 PM
Good idea on using the angle to line up the tips.
Is that a big bundle of shaft blanks on the right side of the photo? Those should keep you busy for a while.
03-24-2004, 03:55 PM
Yes, I think there is 96 in that barrel. I have them in this room because I am about to pick up the centers and center drill and hang them in prep for the first roughing out. That is done on a lathe I built that is in another room that once started does it's work and turns off when it is done, so it is not time consuming, no work at all realy. When I hear it turn off I just go in and put in another shaft when I get a chance. The building is small only 750 sq.ft. but I have it divided up so it is easier to control the temp and humidity in the wood storage area, keep my little work area air conditioned, clean and quiet and not have to be in the room with the routers running. Where I am most of the time is only 10 x 25 and has three lathes in there with sliding glass doors that look out on the garden. It is very pleasant.
03-25-2004, 11:07 AM
I find that typically a 2 part cement works best. Since i work in a dental office i actually managed to get a hold of some of the cement we use to cement crowns, bridges,spacers. etc. Super strong stuff and durable. This particular cement is not easily availble to anyone. But for the most part a cement that has a base and a catalyst and have more of a consistency of a gel work particularly well. just becareful not to add to much or let it set before the tip is in place otherwise you may have some trouble!!! hope this works for you, it does for me
04-02-2004, 06:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> In the last few week I have had several moori tips come off. I am using the Dura quick gel. I can't figure why they keep coming off and it is only the moori. Any ideas? Also, has anyone tried the glue called Insta-flex ? I have read a little about it and it sounds pretty good. It is a ca that dries flexible and not brittle. I think Barranger used to sell it <hr /></blockquote>
I quit using that crapola years ago. In any event, it works most of the time, but these things can happen with the duro quick gel. First off, throw the tube away and get a new one. Then, when you run out, get loctite 454.
04-03-2004, 05:34 AM
I use loctite 454 glue and I have never had a tip come off.
Loctite Instant Adhesives: HMC Electronics 1-800-482-4440
04-03-2004, 01:40 PM
I am going to get some on Monday. I found it at several places in my area but the are commercial supplies and not open on weekends. If Ted Harris says use it, that is good enough for me.
04-06-2004, 10:32 AM
I picked up three tubes of 454 on Monday. $4.41 for a 3 gram tube, not bad. It is cheaper for the 20 gram but it would take too long to use it up and I feel safer paying a little more and knowing it is fresh. Below is a data sheet I found some may be interested in. Any other tips on it's use? I have always applied it to the ferrule in a series of small dots and lightly press on the tip giving it a twist to spread the glue, then press down hard so the glue squeezes out, holding it there for a while. This is just the way I do it, is there a better way? Maybe put on one a larger blob in the
middle. How long do you feel you should let it sit before trimming? Thanks.
04-06-2004, 11:38 AM
I've been using the Loctite 454 for about 5 years. Never had a tip come off. I just apply a small drop in the center of the ferrule, spread it with a toothpick and apply the tip. I put pressure on the tip, push it into a table for 30 seconds and then wait 5 minutes before trimming.
04-06-2004, 01:00 PM
Though Ted is probably the best person to answer this, I'll just throw in my two pennies.
I find that making sure to use a thin coat of glue, evenly spread with no air bubbles, as well as making sure the surfaces are grease/debris free makes all the difference.
Eric >.02 poorer
04-06-2004, 03:35 PM
Loctite makes the Duro Super Glue Gel too. I've used both & can't tell the difference. I put a dab in the middle of the sanded tip, spread it around with the tube's tip. Then,with a little twist, press the two together firm,but not hard enough to squeeze all of the glue out. I count 60 seconds. Trim imediately & play with them, right away. NO FAILURES...JER
04-06-2004, 04:06 PM
One difference seem to be from my research that 454 has some flexibility to it. That would seem to make it a good choice for cue tips, instead of a more brittle formula that may be more suited to gluing a ceramic piece together. They can't be the same, the price alone indicates that. Most of it's properties, from what I read, would not matter as far as cue use goes. It is resistant to all kinds of chemicals and so on. It also sticks to a number of plastics that may be difficult to glue. I had two Cuetec shafts here I put off till I could get the 454. I have had problems in the past with Cuetec, their ferrules don't seem to glue well. I hope this solves my problems. I will say, I never had a tip come off an ivory, fiber or phenolic type ferrules, just the strange type of plastic ones you often see on some cheap cues. I do a lot of billiard shafts. The Helmsteder billiard cues have little plastic type ferrules. I have found, maybe because of how hard they hit the heavier billiard ball, The glue bond with the Duro actually shatters. You can examine it under a loupe and see the glue on both parts. I doubt two in a hundred come off, but that is too much for the person that had their tip come off in the middle of a tournament. I blame it more on funky ferrules, but I hope this solves it and I don't have to think about it any more.
04-06-2004, 05:00 PM
I prefer to put the glue on the backside of the tip because that is the most porous surface. I use the tip of the tube to spread it around. Then, if it soaks in and leaves an area with no wetness, I can see it and add a little more. Then I do similar to you, touch the tip onto the ferrule, lift and turn to spread, then press and hold until set.
With the "little dots on ferrule" technique, I'd be concerned that there could be some dry spots. But then, we engineers have been accused of pickiness with the details.
04-06-2004, 06:40 PM
I think you may be right. I have always been under the impression it was a bad thing to spread super glues. It did something to trigger the reaction and lost some of the strength when the two pieces were assembled. Maybe it is different with the gel's. Either way, being sure of complete coverage is real mportant.
04-07-2004, 09:38 AM
I'll try it. The only tips I've had problems with is the Elk Masters, and I think I solved it by sanding the backs down further. The only other tip was on a Cuetec. (interesting) The bad thing was it was a husband and wife. He uses a cuetec cue and his wife uses an Elk Master tip. They both came off. Embarrassing to say the least. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif
04-07-2004, 12:02 PM
Dang, I guess it's not available locally, I'll have to order it. I tried Walmart, Ace Hardware, Sutherlands, Napa, and O'Reilly's Auto Parts. That's about all there is here to look.
04-07-2004, 12:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I think you may be right. I have always been under the impression it was a bad thing to spread super glues. It did something to trigger the reaction and lost some of the strength when the two pieces were assembled. <hr /></blockquote>
That's probably true, especially in the case where two non-porous surfaces are being stuck together. Since the SG hardens upon solvent evaporation, spreading it to a very thin layer (as opposed to mashing it thin) might let it harden before the parts were put together.
But, on the back of the tip, I tend to have a thick enough layer that it won't dry out in the few seconds before I assemble it anyway. I was surprised the first time I touched a drip of super glue that had sat for several minutes, it was still very much wet and sticky. Apparently it doesn't take that much of a thickness to stay viable.
04-07-2004, 01:20 PM
I looked at the web site and called to see where it could be found by me. It is just sold in industrial supplies it seems. I found it at five different places but only Granger had it as a stock item. The others could have gotten it in, in a few days though. I would think any distributor of the loctite products may order it in for you. For what it is worth, I did some test with popsicle sticks with spreading the glue and just pressing the pieces together. I glued up six of each and in each case the ones where I swirled the glue let go with less effort. I also found that waiting a longer time before stressing the joint did make for a stronger joint. Those glues are very quick, but even ca's are not actually instant, they do seem to require some time before they are at full strength.
04-07-2004, 04:46 PM
Thanks, Popcorn. I tried ordering it from Ace, but no luck. I guess I'll try Graingers. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I've been using Loctite QuicktiteŽ when 454 isn't available. They seem to perform the same and Quicktite is more readily available.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> Dang, I guess it's not available locally, I'll have to order it. I tried Walmart, Ace Hardware, Sutherlands, Napa, and O'Reilly's Auto Parts. That's about all there is here to look. <hr /></blockquote>
04-07-2004, 11:41 PM
A friend recommended it to me just this evening. He said that it gives him a little more time to position the tips, without drying. It is available locally, so I think I'll try a tube. Thanks.
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