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View Full Version : APA rating... What would you do?



ChrisW
03-23-2004, 01:06 PM
Let's say you have a teammate who is fairly new to the league.
He just have enough matches to qualify for Nationals.
Goes on a goes streak and ends up a sk6 for the trip to Vegas. He and the team know that he is really not up to that skill yet but tried to play him anyway and lost but he remained a sk6.
So as the rules go he gets locked in as a sk6 from then on.
But After a few weeks of play he drops all the way to a sk4.
Now he stays quiet because he knows that his ability is only a sk4 and continues to play as a sk4 for four more years. Yes I said four years without going up at all. not even to a sk5. You know he is not sandbagging because you watched him every week for those four years.
Then you see that this weeks score sheet has him as a sk6 and you find out that it is because he should have never dropped down after returning from Vegas as a sk6.
Since this guy cannot compete as a sk6 what should he do and what should his team do?
Remember he played as a sk4 for four years without sandbagging and without going up.

UWPoolGod
03-23-2004, 01:53 PM
I really do not know what to tell you. Maybe he should practice to live up to the SL6 8ball rating. I have not read the rules concerning going to Vegas and being set forever at what he was at the time. I am pretty sure that I am stuck at a SL7 since I have been there for two sessions since my first ever weeks win. There is a guy who won our local $1650 tourneys two years in a row so he got designated a SL8. Not sure where that makes a difference cause he still plays locally as a SL7, but maybe he would have to spot a SL7 a game if he went to Nationals. I am not sure.

ChrisW
03-23-2004, 02:10 PM
I thought I heard of someone having a SK8 before but I just thought they didn't know what they were talking about. But when you hear it twice it kind of makes you think.
This guy was playing 8-ball and not 9-ball, correct?
Since 9-ball goes to sk9.

Chris

cycopath
03-23-2004, 02:26 PM
If the guy is a friend and valuable member of the team, I would work with him and try and bring his level of play up.

If he isn't friend or valuable member of the team. I would shoot him and leave his body behind the bar.

woody_968
03-23-2004, 02:31 PM
I quit playing APA for several years, just started again this year. The problems with skill levels was the reason I quit, and is the reason I am already getting fed up with it again. You have so many people that do sandbag, and in some cases you almost have to sandbag to be competitive at higher levels. And then you have people like you are describing. They play over their head for a couple of weeks and are now locked into a skill that does not help them or their team. I would first talk to the league operator, you will be told that those are the rules and they cant change them, but you should talk to them anyway and express your concerns and let them no that this is hurting the league.

After that there isnt much I can tell you. IMO having skill levels based off of regions that then will go to higher level and play people from stronger regions just doesnt work. I dont know what the answer is, but the APA as it stands is very frustrating.

Pelican
03-23-2004, 02:38 PM
Had to be 9 ball chris. 8 don't go to 8.

UWPoolGod
03-23-2004, 02:54 PM
Go to our local site and check out #25 Ralph "Pete" Carr is technically an SL8 in 8ball. I saw there was a guy in Portland at the Captain/Co-captain tourney like that too..Mike Jarvis might have been his name. But I think it only counts in this $1650 league or local tourneys and not in National/Regional events. Its just cause he won this two years in a row. I guess Don Walker has won twice but not ina row and he hasn't moved up yet. I have not played in any but beat Don Walker 5-3 the one time we played a league match.

http://www.opal-apa.com/OPAL%20Office%20Docs/Current%20Leader%20Board.pdf

Frank_Glenn
03-23-2004, 02:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ChrisW:</font><hr> Then you see that this weeks score sheet has him as a sk6 and you find out that it is because he should have never dropped down after returning from Vegas as a sk6.
Since this guy cannot compete as a sk6 what should he do and what should his team do?
Remember he played as a sk4 for four years without sandbagging and without going up. <hr /></blockquote>
This is one reason why I quit the APA. I do not like the handicap system. Not much you can do. You may be able to get the national to change him if your LO will work with you. I would discuss it with the LO and see how it goes.

thirtyeyes
03-23-2004, 07:57 PM
You can't be technically an 8 in 8ball because that skill level does not exist. I would imagine that in such a case the LO could make an exception and adjust the skill level for local play. The player in question however could be locked at 6 for any regional or national play.

bluewolf
03-23-2004, 10:59 PM
Sometimes you have it the other way with players that pad their innings. it does eventually catch up with them though because the APA has this computer system. For instance, an sl3 can play 10 innings, but the computer puts them in as seven, i think, so it does eventually catch up.

There is also a handicap review, in our area it is usually once a session and sandbaggers can be bumped up that way.

Sometimes it seems to take awhile to go up even if a person is playing a skill level above their designated handicap.

Not a perfect system, but if you like to hang out with friends, not worry about your sl, just play your best, it can be kind of fun.

I dropped out for one session and found out my practice got rusty and was not testing my skills under pressure, so my game was a little off for the first part of the session. There is a handicapped tournie here but there is even more sandbagging there, I have heard.

For good competition, I tend to think that non handicapped tournies are best, no spot, no coaching. Win or lose, it does give one valuable into on what one needs to work on. i don't think that any handicap system works for all, so tend to think that nonhandicapped is best for those who really want to work on their game.

There are those though, just starting out, who have not yet developed their pool self esteem, so think a league format is probably better for them until they develop some confidence and see each situation as a tool to improve their game.

Laura

Fred Agnir
03-24-2004, 05:26 AM
Sandbagging is less prevalent than people like to think. Every friggin' player who wins is accused of sandbagging. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's not as prevalent.

In the APA 9-ball league that I joined this year, my new teammates accuse everybody of sandbagging. It's a learned trait to accuse people of sandbagging. And this forum shares that trait, unfortunately. I don't see it (sandbagging). I see a bunch of amateur players who have occassional moments of brilliance, and occassional moments of lunacy. The table conditions and alcohol will swing their respective games considerably.

And then there's the regional differences...

Fred

bluewolf
03-24-2004, 06:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Sandbagging is less prevalent than people like to think. Every friggin' player who wins is accused of sandbagging. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's not as prevalent.

And then there's the regional differences...

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

There are a few sandbaggers in our league and when it is obvious, they get voted up at handicap reveiw. To me, since it is a computer program, it may take a player awhile to move up in SL because the computer stats have to catch up with their game.

While it is true that some are just having a good night, I have also seen players who consistently play at one sl above their rank, but eventually they do go up.

Interestingly enough, we have one guy on our team who if you watch him play would be a respectable 4. If he wins that week, he is a four the next week. If he loses the next week, he goes back to a three. I guess when he wins, his innings are not that high, so not sure what the factor really is, it is just kind of funny to us.

I have always beaten fours but it is usually about 7 innings with one or two safes per game,and sometimes just using the table to leave them a very hard shot (leaving them bad) but do not think that means I should be a four. They do not count the safes and 7 is the expected number of innings for an sl3.Those matches were very hard and I think it is strategy and reading the table more than my ability at pool. But I do think in APA that things do level out in time. Lots of players think that padding their innings works, but it seems to work only to a degree and then they are surprised when their handicap goes up. it is kind of like if the system designates a three as 7 innings, they can go 12 innings and still be put into the computer as 7.And you are right, everyone complains. Two weeks after I became a three and I won a particular match, they were already complaining that I should be a four. LOL

Laura

rocky
03-24-2004, 08:22 AM
I am confused, did the apa admit to screwing up his sl when they raised again. Maybe he is a sl6. When I did my first show in Vegas for the APA's ( being a long time APA member ) i would go and play in the mini's after we would shut down our booth. what i discovered was that a sl4 where i lived was sl5-6 to most of the people in Vegas. I had a lot of people try and challenge my skill level. My point being that maybe he is a sl6, but your refrence guide is off because of the calibur of players that you have there.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-24-2004, 08:52 AM
Just because he went to Vegas as a 6 doesn't mean he should be locked in to that skill level.

Now if he had gone to Vegas as a 3 or 4 and played like a 6 and won they might lock him in as a 6 for life.

If your local LO won't help you, then contact the national office. After they look at his match record they may move him down. That is if they respond to you at all.

Let us know what happens. I would be interested to see how this turns out. I hate seeing a player screwed like this.

ChrisW
03-24-2004, 09:27 AM
We were always told that the rating you have upon returning from Vegas is your lowest attainable skill level.
This was from our local L.O.

I still don't know whats going to happen. His team captain is talking with the L.O. who i believe is talking to the national office.

Chris

ChrisW
03-24-2004, 09:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rocky:</font><hr> I am confused, did the apa admit to screwing up his sl when they raised again. Maybe he is a sl6. When I did my first show in Vegas for the APA's ( being a long time APA member ) i would go and play in the mini's after we would shut down our booth. what i discovered was that a sl4 where i lived was sl5-6 to most of the people in Vegas. I had a lot of people try and challenge my skill level. My point being that maybe he is a sl6, but your refrence guide is off because of the calibur of players that you have there. <hr /></blockquote>

I don't know yet. This happened on a Sunday and the national office was not open.

I am pretty sure he is not a sk6 anywhere. Even if he was a sk6, he still played as sk4 at our local level which is where skill level are determined. If all of the sk4s around here played like sk6s I think we would be dominating the nationals every year.
From what I have seen the ratings in this area are fairly consistant with other areas (based on reports from national level play)
I believe this was simply a mistake that he went down to a sk4 but I also think that since he has proven to only be a sk4 then he should remain there until he proves otherwise.
And again he is not a sandbagger.

Chris

Wally_in_Cincy
03-24-2004, 09:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ChrisW:</font><hr> We were always told that the rating you have upon returning from Vegas is your lowest attainable skill level.
This was from our local L.O.

<font color="blue">I know people who have gone to Vegas and after returning have lowered their skill level (it might take a while though).

Unless they changed the rule recently. </font color>

I still don't know whats going to happen. His team captain is talking with the L.O. who i believe is talking to the national office.

Chris <hr /></blockquote>

cycopath
03-24-2004, 10:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rocky:</font><hr>what i discovered was that a sl4 where i lived was sl5-6 to most of the people in Vegas. <hr /></blockquote>

I've always heard the same thing, but when I think about how can that be the case when the APA is simply using a formula of innings and matches played/won to determine your SL? I mean it's not like they have to include in the formula the fact that the guy is shooting in Chicago or New York.

Does that make sense?

SpiderMan
03-24-2004, 10:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote rocky:</font><hr>what i discovered was that a sl4 where i lived was sl5-6 to most of the people in Vegas. <hr /></blockquote>

I've always heard the same thing, but when I think about how can that be the case when the APA is simply using a formula of innings and matches played/won to determine your SL? I mean it's not like they have to include in the formula the fact that the guy is shooting in Chicago or New York.

Does that make sense? <hr /></blockquote>

It's because it's just a formula that we see regional differences in ability for a particular S/L. The formula bases your skill level strictly on performance, but doesn't take into account the level of local talent that determined how well you did. Someone's going to be rated a low SL because of their losses. If everyone is a few notches better in your local market, a better player can still lose and be rated "low".

SpiderMan

Wally_in_Cincy
03-24-2004, 10:18 AM
It happens, like Spidey said, due to winning percentage.

I've never watched the open division nationals but I did watch the a lot of the ladies nats this past year.

Most of the s/l's looked to be pretty accurate but there was a girl 5 from Long Beach who would be an average 4 around here at best. The whole team seemed over-rated. But they did play smart safeties and finished in the top 25% I think. Maybe they play in a league that marks safeties. Sad but true.

ChrisW
03-24-2004, 10:19 AM
Hey Wally,
I went to the APA web site to check and this is what I found. I don't know if its new or not but its what I have heard or been told for about 13 years.
Page 33 of the team manual

<font color="blue"> 26. LOWEST ATTAINABLE RULE - Once you have 10 League
matches on record or you have been assigned a skill level (therefore,
an established skill level), you will not be allowed to drop
more than one skill level, except for the rare instances of physical
disability or other extreme circumstances which might
permanently change your true ability. This is known as the lowest
attainable rule.
27. NATIONAL LOWEST ATTAINABLE RULE - In general,
players who have participated in a National Singles or National
Team Championship on the Regional or National Level will
have their lowest attainables raised to the highest exit skill level
they attained during any one of these championships. The APA
maintains a permanent record of players who have participated in
Regional and National events. Some exceptions may be made,
but only if Local League Management specifically appeals an
individualís lowest attainable. Those appeals properly justified
will be granted. The only standard exception would be former
male SL2s who were automatically raised to SL3s as described in
the Higher Level Tournament Section. In that instance, Local
League Management only needs to submit the appeal; no justification
would be necessary. </font color>

So now I see there were two rules that were broken in this case since he never should have dropped from a 4 to a 6.
I actually knew this but did not think about it in this case.
This is really hard for me because I KNOW this guy is a 4 but the rules are saying he should be a 6. Its really too bad also because he is just a recreational league player who most likey won't push himself to become a true 6. I can picture him getting fustrated and quiting, which I would hate to see.
Chris

cycopath
03-24-2004, 10:27 AM
What Wally said makes me wonder, how well does a SL7 play in Vegas?

We only have a couple of SL7's in our area and both of them are excellent players. I'm not saying they break and run constantly, but most of their games will be one or two innings each. So is that to say because these guys live in Podunk, AL if they were to meet up with a SL7 from Chi-town they would be badly out matched?

03-24-2004, 10:39 AM

ChrisW
03-24-2004, 10:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr> What Wally said makes me wonder, how well does a SL7 play in Vegas?

We only have a couple of SL7's in our area and both of them are excellent players. I'm not saying they break and run constantly, but most of their games will be one or two innings each. So is that to say because these guys live in Podunk, AL if they were to meet up with a SL7 from Chi-town they would be badly out matched? <hr /></blockquote>

sk7 is really tough because there is no real upper limit.
We have many sk7s here but they vary a lot in skill level.
Generally a new sk7 is a "B" player for most other tournaments, but many players who are sk7 are also "A" players.
So it is posible that a couple of 7s from podunk could go either way. But if they lived somewhere else that has more 7s then they will have less chances at the table and could posibly loose more matches. Then again they could step up wipe the floor with everybody.
Like I said 7s are tough to judge by their rating.

Chris

cycopath
03-24-2004, 10:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ChrisW:</font><hr>sk7 is really tough because there is no real upper limit.
<hr /></blockquote>

I thought about that when I made that post, but I never really think about someone that's truely an A or better player staying in the APA. Just seems like guys (or gals) that play that well would view the leagues as a bunch of bangers and not want to have anything to do with it.

So I guess I'm asking about low-end SL7s in general.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-24-2004, 11:31 AM
[quote} from rule

<font color="blue">Some exceptions may be made,
but only if Local League Management specifically appeals an
individualís lowest attainable. Those appeals properly justified
will be granted. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Looks like your LO needs to appeal. The national office should be able to look at his scores and determine that he's not really a 6.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-24-2004, 11:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr>
...if they were to meet up with a SL7 from Chi-town they would be badly out matched? <hr /></blockquote>

If the opponent from Chicago is named Henry Brodt or John Abruzzo, just go ahead and forfeit /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
03-24-2004, 11:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr>

I thought about that when I made that post, but I never really think about someone that's truely an A or better player staying in the APA. Just seems like guys (or gals) that play that well would view the leagues as a bunch of bangers and not want to have anything to do with it.... <hr /></blockquote>

Around here that's generally true. But a good player can make some money in their national tournaments.

The best player in our league is a strong A player who could beat at least half the field at our Cincy Viking tour stop but he chooses not to play. He just plays APA on a barbox. Go figure.

rocky
03-24-2004, 12:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
The 'white collar' term is handicapp management and the 'blue collar' definition is you MF------ sandbagger. <hr /></blockquote>

Now that is funny!