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View Full Version : So you think miscues are not fouls?



Cueless Joey
03-23-2004, 04:54 PM
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/html/HSV2-1.htm

Keith Talent
03-23-2004, 05:04 PM
That's painful to watch.

Guess it's the intent that matters, but it's kind of sick thinking somebody gets to shoot again after doing something so ugly. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

But in tennis, unintentional double-hits are allowed ...

Popcorn
03-23-2004, 05:09 PM
If it can't be determined, it can't be called in my opinion. You can't speculate. It happens in every sport. At home you see the replay and the call was wrong.

Cueless Joey
03-23-2004, 05:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> If it can't be determined, it can't be called in my opinion. You can't speculate. It happens in every sport. At home you see the replay and the call was wrong. <hr /></blockquote>
I called it one time. One guy was trying to slow roll a ball. He hit the top and miscued. The ball skewed to the right. I said there is just no way that ball skewed to the right without his shaft hitting it. He agreed. Danny DeLieberto said in one match between Efren and Daulton the same thing when Shannon miscued really badly.

Keith Talent
03-23-2004, 05:35 PM
Popcorn,

But would it be possible to miscue without at least the ferrule brushing the cb? Suppose the rule could easily be changed (to say that a miscue is always a foul) on that assumption. That's why I thought it was the intent that counts.

Ralph S.
03-23-2004, 06:14 PM
Actually, you can interpret a miscue as a foul in almost all cases. Example: player A miscues and cb only travels X amount of distance, failing to even strike intended ob. Since player A failed to hit the ob and play a legal shot{no pocketing of ball or cb and or ob contacting a rail} this is a foul according to bih rules, be it BCA, VNEA, or whatever set of standardized rules you are playing under.

The same can be said about a miscue being a foul even if the cb or ob does contact a rail or pocket. This is true due to the fact that the ferrule or shaft came in contact with the cb.

tateuts
03-23-2004, 06:43 PM
I wish they would just say "a miscue in and of itself is not a foul".

Here's my logic. Most miscues result in a foul anyway. If you say "all miscues are fouls" people will be arguing over if a shot was a miscue or not.

Chris

Keith Talent
03-23-2004, 06:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> I wish they would just say "a miscue in and of itself is not a foul".

<hr /></blockquote>

I thought that WAS the general rule ... maybe just general custom?

Popcorn
03-23-2004, 06:54 PM
Quote
"This is true due to the fact that the ferrule or shaft came in contact with the cb"

How do you know? I play with a very hard tip and it often may sound to someone like a misscue.

Popcorn
03-23-2004, 06:58 PM
Although interesting, trying to make these kinds of calls, adds nothing of quality to the game. It creates more problems they it solves. The game needs a certain amount of implied freedom to be played without fear of being called on a foul every few seconds. I don't think many players would like playing by the old straight pool rules of a foul every time you touched a ball with you shirt, or at least someone thinks you did and an argument ensues over something that really had no true effect on the game.

Fred Agnir
03-23-2004, 07:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/html/HSV2-1.htm <hr /></blockquote>Couple of problems. Although many miscues are double or multiple hits or shaft/ferrule hits, some are not. Therefore, it would be touchy to call one as a foul. The video shown just happens to be a multi-hit on the ferrule of the heinous variety.

Similarly, there are some extreme english shots shown in the Jacksonville Tapes that result in multiple hits between the tip and the cueball on the same stroke, but aren't miscues. Should those be called fouls? I wouldn't think so.

Fred

ras314
03-23-2004, 08:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Similarly, there are some extreme english shots shown in the Jacksonville Tapes that result in multiple hits between the tip and the cueball on the same stroke, but aren't miscues. Should those be called fouls? I wouldn't think so <hr /></blockquote>
Can anyone define a miscue? I have the impression a miscue occurs any time the tip "slips" on the cb. This would probably make most all jump shots a miscue.

Or is it a miscue only if something other than the tip contacts the cb? ie the normal loud type.

Are double hits fouls if a "miscue" where the tip hits the cb more than once? I would think so.

Ralph S.
03-23-2004, 08:23 PM
Popcorn, I am referring to the majority of miscues. A good example might be a someone playing a simple draw shot and miscues, very easy to tell. Also, playing a shot when cb is froze on rail. I have seen so many players lay cue on rail, using it as a bridge and the cb gets trappedunder the shaft because they are trying to juice whitey. You also have the factor of vision to help guide you on determing in many scenarios. Hearing also will help. Just because you shoot with a hard tip it may sound like a miscue, but your eyesight will help with a more accurate decision. And please note that I didnt say all miscues were fouls, just the majority.

Frank_Glenn
03-23-2004, 08:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> If it can't be determined, it can't be called in my opinion. You can't speculate. It happens in every sport. At home you see the replay and the call was wrong. <hr /></blockquote>

That "sound" you hear when you mis cue is the ferrule "slapping" the ball.

Popcorn
03-23-2004, 09:00 PM
Now you would require a ref any time you play. I don't care to hang next to the other player trying to catch him doing something on every shot and in the same respect I don't want him hanging on me all the time. It adds a bad aspect to the game in my opinion, sort of like many of the bar rules you run into so often. For the record, every time you draw or follow the ball you make a double hit. (been proven) Knowing that, do you want to remover all follow and draw from the game?

Popcorn
03-23-2004, 09:04 PM
Quote
"That "sound" you hear when you mis cue is the ferrule "slapping" the ball."

How do you know? You are stating things you can not be sure of. A very hard tip will cause the shaft resonate on a very off center hit, who is to be the judge?

Rod
03-23-2004, 09:15 PM
Not all miscues are fouls. The current rule will be in effect for a long time, although I don't like the way it's worded. Sometime this century there might be a new book, but I'm not holding my breath.

Rod

tateuts
03-23-2004, 09:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Keith Talent:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> I wish they would just say "a miscue in and of itself is not a foul".

<hr /></blockquote>

I thought that WAS the general rule ... maybe just general custom? <hr /></blockquote>

Well, kind of - then they go on to talk about determining if the ferrule hit the ball or not. What I'm saying is to allow the miscue as a clean hit, whether or not the ferrule and/or shaft hits the ball.

Chris

Ralph S.
03-24-2004, 01:05 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[I don't care to hang next to the other player trying to catch him doing something on every shot and in the same respect I don't want him hanging on me all the time./quote]

<font color="red">Popcorn....I am not implying hanging on the shoulder of your opponents every shot. This can be easily observed while sitting in your seat during his inning at the table. You seem to be a very knowledgeable player and I usually respect and agree with your opinions, but it seems you are simply failing to put good ole fashioned common sense to use by being too damned technical in this case. </font color>

Ralph S.
03-24-2004, 01:11 AM
Thanks Rod. You seem to understand the point I am trying to convey. I never said that all miscues were foul, just that a great majority can be, espescially when the cueball fails to make legal contact with the object ball, thus causing the object ball to not be pocketed, driven to a rail, or cueball not to be driven to a rail after contact with object ball. This results in a foul, even if it is a miscue. Popcorn seems to not be understanding this.

Popcorn
03-24-2004, 03:11 AM
I understand what you are saying and all this is just for discussion purposes anyway. I don't think anyone is going to try calling a foul on a player who miscues any time soon. For the game to be played, it requires players, if there is no referee, to play with a certain amount of honesty and sportsmanship. You should not have to be afraid to turn your back for fear the guy will move the balls with his hand. If I foul, you don't have to be watching, I will let you know. You may be surprised the amount of sportsmanship you find among many players, even players playing for big money. Most wil not cheat, even if given the opportunity. When players try to manipulate the rules beyond their intended meaning, it spoils the game in my opinion.

Fred Agnir
03-24-2004, 05:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr>For the record, every time you draw or follow the ball you make a double hit. (been proven) Knowing that, do you want to remover all follow and draw from the game? <hr /></blockquote>I don't recall this has been proven. Do the Jacksonville Tapes show this? Bob?

Fred

bluewolf
03-24-2004, 07:03 AM
I think I must have been missing something? When I or another player misses a shot, they sometimes say they miscued. If they miscue real bad so that they do not make a legal hit, the other player gets BIH.

I have not heard of intentional miscues.

Laura

Cueless Joey
03-24-2004, 08:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr>For the record, every time you draw or follow the ball you make a double hit. (been proven) Knowing that, do you want to remover all follow and draw from the game? <hr /></blockquote>I don't recall this has been proven. Do the Jacksonville Tapes show this? Bob?

Fred <hr /></blockquote>
I don't recall that as well.
I recall the chalk dust cloud and the cb hopping on the table on draw shots.

SpiderMan
03-24-2004, 09:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Keith Talent:</font><hr> Popcorn,

But would it be possible to miscue without at least the ferrule brushing the cb? Suppose the rule could easily be changed (to say that a miscue is always a foul) on that assumption. That's why I thought it was the intent that counts. <hr /></blockquote>

If the rule were changed as you suggest, how would you determine that a miscue had happened, in order to call a foul? Sound? There's a lot of gray area there. There would be obvious miscues, obvious good hits, plus every funny sound in between open to interpretation and argument.

SpiderMan

Keith Talent
03-24-2004, 10:03 AM
Hey, I wouldn't change the rule. That was just supposing for argument's sake. Personally, I think miscues are just part of game, rather than an attempt to bend the rules. A parallel case, maybe, would be the usual rule with double-hits. Then the onus is on the shooter to show he's NOT double-hitting, right, usually by using some sort of nip stroke. In THAT case, an advantage could be gained by taking a fuller stroke that would almost surely result in a double hit.

But I don't see any advantage gained in a miscue ... so I think it would be persnickety to call a foul on that, though I suppose you could, technically. I've never done it.

Popcorn
03-24-2004, 10:11 AM
I haven't watched them in a long time, but I remember being surprised that the cue ball was being double hit repeatedly on the test shots. Enough that any shot you use a follow through on, making it every shot for that matter, a double hit may have occurred. I mentioned it, because like the miscue that is being discussed, some things just can't be determined and you can't say as some have, "I know the ferrule has hit the cue ball, that is the sound you are hearing." These things although interesting, have no real place in the rule process of the game. I will take another look at the tape later because I am going from memory. What the tip was doing if I remember right was, as it would deflect away and return, it would again contact the cue ball as the deflection in the shaft calmed down even on just common spin shots.

piglit
03-25-2004, 07:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> multiple hits between the tip and the cueball on the same stroke, but aren't miscues...Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Are you saying that multiple hits between the tip and the cueball on the same stroke do not constitute a foul?

Can I really hit the ball 2 times? How much time can pass before I make the 2nd contact?

This could be really useful, please let me know so that I can practice up...

-pigi

Bob_Jewett
04-09-2004, 12:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
For the record, every time you draw or follow the ball you make a double hit. (been proven)<hr /></blockquote>

I believe the above statement to be false.

Some time ago, Hal Mix quoted incorrectly the results of some high-speed camera work from the 1960s or so, and his mistake seems to have gotten widespread distribution. Perhaps that's the source of the above comment.

The Jacksonville tapes show no such result, and in fact show single hits for normal strokes.

Popcorn
04-09-2004, 02:30 PM
Did you find there to be double hits on many shots? Meaning a double hit may have occurred at any given time during play, although not possible to call? I have your tape and that is what I was referring to. From what I saw there were double hits, you must have seen it differently? I had a hand written synopsis of what was going on, but misplaced it, so I had to try to figure out what I was seeing myself. It was a bit difficult.

Bob_Jewett
04-09-2004, 03:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Did you find there to be double hits on many shots? ... <hr /></blockquote>

Double hits occurred only on miscues, so far as I recall. Well, and the close shots where the cue ball is immediately stopped by the object ball and the stick runs into it on the follow through.

As for whether miscues should be called fouls because the tip may have hit the ball twice or the ferrule got involved, I think that there should be no penalty for unintentional miscues unless the referee can clearly see a foul. Sometimes miscues do not have a second hit of any kind.

Fred Agnir
04-09-2004, 03:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote piglit:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> multiple hits between the tip and the cueball on the same stroke, but aren't miscues...Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Are you saying that multiple hits between the tip and the cueball on the same stroke do not constitute a foul?
<hr /></blockquote>Talk about misquoting.

Fred

Popcorn
04-09-2004, 07:04 PM
I am going to review the tape tonight. My memory may be wrong. I thought the tip hit the ball more then once on extreme spin shots where the shaft flexed back and hit the cue ball again.

dr_dave
12-01-2004, 03:31 PM
The link to this video has changed. The new URL is:
www.engr.colostate.edu/pool/high_speed_videos/HSV2-1.htm (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/HSV2-1.htm)

Many other clips (including some recently added clips) are available at:
www.engr.colostate.edu/pool/high_speed_videos (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html)

petel
12-02-2004, 07:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Did you find there to be double hits on many shots? ... <hr /></blockquote>

Sometimes miscues do not have a second hit of any kind.
<hr /></blockquote> I'ld like to see a situation that a miscue is not a double hit. The tip skids off the ball and hits it again. Ball would not travel far if it did not get hit a second time. If it travels left or right then it was pushed that way on the second hit. Try playing without a tip with a lot of english and you will clearly see the side of the cue touching the ball again.

wolfdancer
12-02-2004, 07:54 PM
DD, scanning down on this thread, I see a post by Frank Glenn, on 3/23....too bad we can't turn back the clock

Bob_Jewett
12-02-2004, 08:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote petel:</font><hr>... I'ld like to see a situation that a miscue is not a double hit. The tip skids off the ball and hits it again. Ball would not travel far if it did not get hit a second time. ... <hr /></blockquote>
Well, I've been known to miscue on a break-shot-speed shot and have the cue ball only move a few feet. Could that have been a single hit?

You're saying that single-hit miscues never occur. I think that's hard to prove.

Rod
12-02-2004, 08:56 PM
I'd shoot certain miscues to prove there not all a foul. --BUT-- I'll need some sort of medication, during or after, and a quiet place to rest.

Rod

petel
12-03-2004, 07:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> Well, I've been known to miscue on a break-shot-speed shot and have the cue ball only move a few feet. Could that have been a single hit?

You're saying that single-hit miscues never occur. I think that's hard to prove. <hr /></blockquote>

If you could remember that break, I believe that the tip of your stick rolled of the edge of the ball which is the second hit. Without being there I have seen lots of miscues on breaks and each one seems to be the exact same. The noise you hear on miscue is from the second hit.

Fred Agnir
12-04-2004, 03:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Did you find there to be double hits on many shots? ... <hr /></blockquote>

Double hits occurred only on miscues, so far as I recall. <hr /></blockquote>I seem to recall on the Jacksonville Tapes an extreme english shot where the tip hit the cue ball a few times. II don't know if this was a miscue, but it didn't look like one.

Fred

Bob_Jewett
12-06-2004, 07:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>... I seem to recall on the Jacksonville Tapes an extreme english shot where the tip hit the cue ball a few times. II don't know if this was a miscue, but it didn't look like one. <hr /></blockquote>
A problem with some of those shots was how the stick was held by Iron Willie. He has a grip much firmer than humans can manage, so the stick does not slow down much (or for very long) when it hits the cue ball. With a normal grip, it takes about 20 milliseconds for the stick/hand to get back to the same speed after the hit(about 80% of the initial speed) but with Willie, I think it was much faster. I believe this affected the number of double hits seen. Yes, some of the extreme spin shots do appear to have more than one tip contact.

Rod
12-06-2004, 07:26 PM
I've never seen the tape. Doesn't the shaft bow out to the left using left english while the tip is still in contact? After the tip leaves the c/b of course it deflects to the left. What I'm saying is a spring effect.

That would give it less time to clear the c/b especially if the cue speed wasn't slowed down much by the hit. Did I explain that well enough?

Rod

Bob_Jewett
12-06-2004, 08:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> I've never seen the tape. Doesn't the shaft bow out to the left using left english while the tip is still in contact? ... <hr /></blockquote>
There is no visible bowing. The shaft does move to the side as the spin begins to act while the tip is on the ball, but which way the shaft bends (concave or convex, and where) is not visible. Simple theory predict that the tip is moving away from the ball faster than the rest of the shaft, which means the bowing is concave as seen from the side of the english.

dr_dave
12-06-2004, 09:41 PM
High-speed clips HSV A.5-A.7 and A.13-A.20 online (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html) might be of interest to people in this discussion thread.