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JohnnyP
04-28-2002, 10:23 AM
If the qb can squirt a couple inches on a long shot, how can parallel aiming ever compensate for it?

If you put one tip of side on the qb, and you aim parallel to the target line, aren't you hoping that the qb only squirts one tip?

Cueless Joey
04-28-2002, 10:49 AM
The throw makes up for it or one would hope so.
We need CC or Scotty to explain this.

TonyM
04-28-2002, 02:02 PM
Ture parallel compensation for squirt can never work unless the cue has zero squirt. In practice, there might be a speed, cue angle and distance where squirt and swerve will cancel out (allowing a parallel aim). But this will change whenever any of the above variables are changed.

Most players that claim to use parallel aim are actually not. They are subconsciously adjusting thier aim to include the squirt, but years of habit have made the adjustment "invisible".

A view from above will show the true cue angle, and it is rarely, if ever, parallel.

Tony

JohnnyP
04-28-2002, 04:14 PM
Thanks, Tony. I thought Allison's method sounded too good to be true.

Normally, I try to stroke straight, and alter the aim point by guessing. It's a celebration when they go in.

I played eight ball with the the wife the other day, and on a couple long shots with low outside, I realized that I swooped the cue in an arc at the last moment. Made 'em, too.

I think reading these BHE threads gave my unconscious mind the permission to try it.

Can I get up off the couch now Doc?

Alfie
04-28-2002, 05:50 PM
Quote JohnnyP-- "Normally, I try to stroke straight, and alter the aim point by guessing."

Not to discuss various aiming methods and stroking techniques here, I think this is what most everybody does, i.e., guess. The more you play, the better you guess.

IMO, you should pick a point on the cue ball to hit, though, even if you use BHE.

Rod
04-28-2002, 05:57 PM
Johnny if a cue ball did squirt 2 inches, I'd have to re-learn the game!

Alfie
04-28-2002, 06:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Rod:</font><hr> Johnny if a cue ball did squirt 2 inches, I'd have to re-learn the game! <hr></blockquote>
Depending on the cue and the shot, it could easily squirt 2".

Suppose you are trying an 4'shot (4' between the cue ball and object ball) that you really have to use a lot of side spin on (say, a half inch tip offset) with an 12" squirt pivot point cue. The cue ball would squirt off of the stick aiming line 1/2" for every 12" travelled, or 2".

Rod
04-28-2002, 06:51 PM
Alfie, I wouldn't be playing with my cue then. If I use a ton of side, my bride length is fairly short. It will squirt some, but at 2 inches worth one could easily miss the whole ball! Does anyone really miss that far? I'd have to aim at the left side of the ball to hit the right side if that was the case.

Cuemage
04-28-2002, 07:31 PM
Not that i do this routinely, but you can make some spectacular shots by using extreme english. If I have a 3/4 table length shot, needing 3 rails for position, then I squirt about 15/16 of the object ball! A similar shot is cutting a rail shot back beyond normal angles. If you add these 2 shots to your arsenal, then you can recover better when you get out of shape.

Tha Cuemage

SpiderMan
04-28-2002, 08:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Rod:</font><hr> Johnny if a cue ball did squirt 2 inches, I'd have to re-learn the game! <hr></blockquote>

Rod,

I don't remember your cue, but is it a fairly small diameter (ie lightweight in the front), or maybe a predator shaft? My own cue is around 13mm and dense, and I get about a half-ball of squirt at a four- to five-foot distance. In other words, to make a cut shot that requires a half-ball hit, I aim straight at the center of the ball if I'm loading up with inside english.

Of course, we both know that I need to re-learn the game!

SpiderMan

TonyM
04-28-2002, 11:20 PM
Alfie says:"IMO, you should pick a point on the cue ball to hit, though, even if you use BHE."

That's an interesting point Alfie. I think that I agree with you. The question though is:

What do you look at if you are aiming with sidespin (with or without BHE)?

I see two possibilities:

1) look at the point of aim that you would see for a centerball hit (after all, that's where the cueball has to arrive at in order to make the ball with or without sidespin)

or,

2) look at a new point of aim that corresponds to the new stick direction

The question is really, "do you want to look at the point of aim for the cueball, or the stick point of aim"?

I've tried both, and basically they both work, but what makes the most sense?

I find that if I look at a new point of aim corresponding to the new stick offset and ignore the contact point, then I get greater consistency with the amount of english applied. This is based on the idea that you tend to move the cue to where your eyes are pointed. So if you use BHE, and you are looking at the contact point even though the stick is pointed away from it, there might be a tendancy to swerve the stick back towards center.

With BHE, and a cue with the spp = bridge length, the ball will still go in the hole, but you will get less english than you intend.

Then again, if you are not looking at the contact point (or more precisely the point of aim required to make the ball) then you will not get the correct feedback on whether you hit your target or not.

It's a case of deciding which target is most important for the shot: the tip/ball contact point, or the ball/ball contact point.

Sometimes one overides the other.

Tony
-sometimes looks at the contact point, sometimes looks at the cue aim line...

TonyM
04-28-2002, 11:23 PM
"Johnny if a cue ball did squirt 2 inches, I'd have to re-learn the game!"

Either you use a low squirt cue, or you compensate for squirt without realizing it. I have tried many cues that will squirt a cueball at least 2" for some shots. It isn't that unusual, or neccessarily bad.

Tony
-looks at the angle when using a high squirt cue with BHE and is often amazed at the compensation required!

Rod
04-29-2002, 12:05 AM
Tony, I compensate for aim, which is the real reason that I don't see a 2" squirt, plus as I said earlier on shots with high spin my bridge gets some what shorter. With a short bridge I don't feel the need to compensate very much. It might supprise me though on film.

Rod
04-29-2002, 12:13 AM
No my cue is a Schön with a 13 1/4 mm shaft. It has a conical taper and is pretty stiff. At 20 inches it is 16mm. My aim point is similar to yours.

Rod
04-29-2002, 12:22 AM
The one I run across more often is when I over traveled position. I need to clear the side pocket for 2 rail position, or just one rail near the corner. A lot of spin for sure, but speed is the critical factor.

Alfie
04-29-2002, 03:23 AM
Quote TonyM: Tony- looks at the angle when using a high squirt cue with BHE and is often amazed at the compensation required!"

Very high or maxxed out parameters, e.g., nearly 9' between object ball and cue ball, 9/16" tip offset, and an 8" squirt pivot point cue, will yield about 7" of squirt. Of course, swerve ... (blah, blah, blah).

Why you would shoot a shot like this is another matter.

Alfie
04-29-2002, 04:19 AM
Quote TonyM: "Alfie says:"IMO, you should pick a point on the cue ball to hit, though, even if you use BHE."

That's an interesting point Alfie. I think that I agree with you. The question though is: [...] "

I was responding to JohnnyP's remarks. It sounded like he was using the swerving BHE method or dynamic swerve or whatever it's called. With all due respect to The Black Box, if you are going to use side spin you should decide how much. IMO, the swerving BHE is too inexact a technique. That's why I suggested he pick a point on the cue ball to hit (and then hit it, of course).

In other words- when using BHE, use aim and pivot, not the swerve.

Damn, I mentioned stroking techniques afterall.

TonyM
04-29-2002, 05:06 PM
For a real eye opener, try using a 13mm pool cue on a snooker table, with the light balls, and use a ton of side, lot's of speed, and at least ten or 11 feet between cueball and object ball! See if you can even hit it at all!

Tony
-wild and wacky stuff!

04-30-2002, 12:15 AM
Are you allowing for the throw caused by the spin?

The method I use is to aim to the side of the pocket. This would be the same side as the cue. This will give you a very wide "throw" range. If you don't get any spin you will still make the shot. If you get too much you will enter the pocket on the other side. If all goes well you will be right down the middle.

Chris Cass
07-26-2002, 02:10 PM
Hi Johnny,

I don't get involved on the theory of throw and english because this subject always gets picked apart piece by piece, dissected and probed like a frog in chemistry class.

I'll say this. The parallel aiming system, or mirror image sys., is what I use, and have found it to be the most easiest to teach and the easiest to learn. IMO

All aiming systems are just tools to give your mind a way of seeing things. This is L/brain activity, then when you shoot, you're in R/brain. One cue tip of running english, or the natural roll, in the direction you going, is needed to compensate. You must hit the cb to that spot, or aim point, on the rail for it to be effective. You have to get it there first. So many people try to put that aim spot on the side rather than aiming through the spot.

If you play this game for a long enough time, you'll find out that it's easier to let the cb flow through shots and not fight the table with force. There are times when you must, but I see it like an artist paints, only backing up the brush when you have to. JMHO

I'm not a qualified instructor like Scott Lee is, although I think my buddy Joey values my opinion. I appreciate it, but all my L/brain activity is done standing up. When I get down, I don't know who I am. LOL

Regards,

C.C.~~Jimmy Reid can clear this up for you. Watched Voodoo's tape with Heide. I do the same things. Thanks to Voodoo and his connection to the pros.

bluewolf
07-26-2002, 02:44 PM
i dont want to be a pest. i know what parallel means in geometry but not in pool. you guys are way over my head.

heater451
07-26-2002, 03:07 PM
This may help: http://easypooltutor.com/adv13.php

Chris Cass
07-26-2002, 03:26 PM
Hi Laura,

Don't look too far into this. It's easy if you think outside the box. It's hard at first I know as, all this information at one time can be difficult to digest. I'm sure Ray can help in this area with the right way to look at this.

Regards,

C.C.

SPetty
07-27-2002, 06:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Chris Cass:</font><hr> I'm not a qualified instructor like Scott Lee is, although I think my buddy Joey values my opinion. <hr></blockquote>Hi C.C.,

Your buddy SPetty values you opinion too. Just thought I'd add that.

SPetty~~~values C.C.'s opinion

Chris Cass
07-27-2002, 12:09 PM
Yes, you are my buddy. Dye, your hair blonde, get that cast off and get to Vegas next yr. You'll take it off. hahaha Hope so, I'll be in the Masters next time and thanks for sweating some of my matches. Oh, I hope I get Pickle next yr.

Regards,

C.C.~~owes SPetty a brewski......