PDA

View Full Version : Rails vs Cushions -- Frozen Ball Rule



Troy
04-09-2004, 02:10 PM
I thought I knew this, but now I wonder.
While there may be only 4 "Rails", I think there are 6 "Cushions".

OB is frozen to a cushion on the long rail between side pocket and corner pocket. Is contact with the cushion on the long rail but on the other side of that side pocket considered legal contact with a "different cushion" (BCA 3.38(c)) or is it a foul ??? Please quote BCA Rule reference.

Thank you... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Troy

Ken
04-09-2004, 02:38 PM
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=sven+davies+rail&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3savm6%246b3%40insosf1.netins.net&rnum=1

Sven discussed an intended change to the then rule 3.37. Unfortunately they went on to write the ball can strike a "cushion attached to a separate rail". One can easily argue that the 2 sections of the side rail are "separate" from each other just as much as the end rails are "separate" from the side rails. All the ends are connected in the same manner so either they are all separate or none of them are separate.

It's clear what Sven intended to do when they wrote rule 3.38 but they worded it poorly. Without reading what Sven said I would have to argue that the 2 sections of the side rail are separate. Nevertheless he claims that it would be a foul to contact only the cushion on the other side of the pocket.

He proposed to write "different" rail and then went on to write "separate" rail.
Ken in CT

Troy
04-09-2004, 03:19 PM
Apparently a rule change was discussed but never implemented.
Therefore, the existing rules stand. The OB contacting the cushion on the other side of a side pocket constitutes a legal shot and is NOT a foul.

Troy

Bob_Jewett
04-09-2004, 03:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> I thought I knew this, but now I wonder.
While there may be only 4 "Rails", I think there are 6 "Cushions".

OB is frozen to a cushion on the long rail between side pocket and corner pocket. Is contact with the cushion on the long rail but on the other side of that side pocket considered legal contact with a "different cushion" (BCA 3.38(c)) or is it a foul ??? Please quote BCA Rule reference.<hr /></blockquote>

The current BCA rule is that a ball frozen to a rail must be driven to a different rail. If a ball is frozen to a point of a side pocket, and you shoot it and it only rattles back and forth between the jaws, you do not get credit for a cushion with that ball.

The rule is broken. I will do my best to fix it.

Ken
04-09-2004, 03:49 PM
I believe what was proposed was a rule clarification. Sven seems to be clear that it was a foul under the 1995 rule but he felt the rule was ambiguous. He did write "causing a frozen ball to cross the adjacent side pocket to come in contact with the other cushion on the same rail IS a foul".

I can't tell if the rule was changed. At least the rule number was changed. I didn't see the 1995 rule quoted in that thread so I don't know the wording of the rule at that time.

In the Pot-O-Gold league I remember it being a foul even if the cue ball contacts the rail after hitting the object ball. All contact along the whole long rail was a foul if no other rail was hit by any ball.
Ken in CT

Bob_Jewett
04-09-2004, 07:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ken:</font><hr>
In the Pot-O-Gold league I remember it being a foul even if the cue ball contacts the rail after hitting the object ball. All contact along the whole long rail was a foul if no other rail was hit by any ball. <hr /></blockquote>
That rule is totally broken. The whole point of the frozen ball rule is to prevent repetitive safeties. There is little chance of a stalemate if the cue ball contacts a cushion after hitting the object ball, since it almost certainly means that the object ball is making progress towards a pocket. On the other hand, if the last ball (8 or 9, depending on the game) is on the cushion and the cue ball is straight out from it, there is a chance of a stalemate if the players were permitted to play against the frozen ball.

And the passing of the ball from one side of the side pocket to the other also has no stalemate likelihood.

Ken
04-09-2004, 07:58 PM
As far as I know the Pot O' Gold league is broken too.

I agree there is little chance of a stalemate situation if the frozen object ball is shot down the long rail, passes the side pocket but fails to reach the corner pocket. The opinion I have seen is that it should not be a foul if the object ball passes the side pocket and touches that rail. I agree with that.

The question seems to be whether the BCA rule makes that a foul. Sven's statement in the thread in which you, Bob, participated calls it a foul. No cue ball rail contact.

Frozen object ball passes side pocket and hits rail. Isn't it true that the BCA rules call that a foul if no other rail is hit?

I have to disagree with the carom analogy, however. There you can put spin on the cue ball and cause multiple hits on the same rail and they all count. That does not result in stalemate positions. What the object ball hits is irrelevant.
Ken in CT

RGlenn
04-09-2004, 11:10 PM
Hello Bob Jewett.....Hope to see you in Vegas this year.
Isn't it the "Spirit" of the rule that you fellas are discussing concerning rule 3.38...frozen balls? For the sake of simplicity, whether the rule is or isn't broken, just remember "4" rails but "6" cushions and the qualifier "after contact". SO, after contact, either the Q has to touch a rail, the contacted object ball has to touch an adjacent (separate) rail, a ball has to be pocketed, or cause another object ball to contact another cushion with which it wasn't already in contact. The two cushions on each side of the side pocket constitutes two cushions BUT one rail, so it is a foul for an object ball to pass the side pocket while remaining in contact with the same rail (provided the other three requirements were not met either). Now, if the object ball leaves the rail, contacts another numbered ball, and returns to the same rail, it is a legal shot. That's straight out of the latest BCA Official Rules &amp; Records Book. Anyway, having been a BCA Referee in Vegas for the past 12 years, I can only say that's the way we interpret the rule on BCA Tournament Floors. All you guys have a great weekend!!!!

striker_3
04-10-2004, 12:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RGlenn:</font><hr> Hello Bob Jewett.....Hope to see you in Vegas this year.
Isn't it the "Spirit" of the rule that you fellas are discussing concerning rule 3.38...frozen balls? For the sake of simplicity, whether the rule is or isn't broken, just remember "4" rails but "6" cushions and the qualifier "after contact". SO, after contact, either the Q has to touch a rail, the contacted object ball has to touch an adjacent (separate) rail, a ball has to be pocketed, or cause another object ball to contact another cushion with which it wasn't already in contact. The two cushions on each side of the side pocket constitutes two cushions BUT one rail, so it is a foul for an object ball to pass the side pocket while remaining in contact with the same rail (provided the other three requirements were not met either). <font color="red"> </font color> That's straight out of the latest BCA Official Rules &amp; Records Book. Anyway, having been a BCA Referee in Vegas for the past 12 years, I can only say that's the way we interpret the rule on BCA Tournament Floors. All you guys have a great weekend!!!! <hr /></blockquote>

This is an honest question, not trying to start anything. I agree with what you said, I read it for myself about 15 minutes ago. My question is this : If the frozen OB contacts another OB, does it have to be another cushion attached to same rail, or can it be the same exact cushion?

Thanks

NH_Steve
04-10-2004, 02:48 AM
While we are at it, I have been working on some expanded rules for One Pocket, and came up with this:

...In the event that the cue ball becomes wedged between an object ball and the cushion and frozen to both, then legal shot requirements must be met by pocketing the frozen ball, or by contacting either another ball or another cushion enroute to a legal shot. Failure to do so is a foul.

Any comments?

Also, assuming the cue ball is frozen between the 1-ball and the rail in the following diagram, what if Efren Reyes were to masse the cue ball out around the 1-ball and return to bump the opposite side of the 1-ball, and then settle on the same rail? Should the rule also permit forcing the cue ball to conclusively leave the cushion and return to complete a legal shot?

START(
%AD2I6%BE7C8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EQ3T0%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MI2Y7%NN1Q0%ON0L5%PC7H6%eB8_5%_E0J5%` G4G2%aD3G8
)END

He actually played a shot very similar to this at the DCC this year -- but I do not know if any of the balls were frozen.

Rod
04-10-2004, 10:45 AM
Assuming it left that cushion hit another ball and returned to the same cushion it is a legal shot.

Rod

Bob_Jewett
04-11-2004, 08:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote NH_Steve:</font><hr>Any comments? <hr /></blockquote>
Sure. The rule I like which is both short and sufficient is:

On every shot in which no ball is pocketed, some ball must be driven to a rail after the cue ball contacts an object ball. A ball touching the cushion at the start of a shot is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rails and returns.

That's it. Well, except that a ball close to the cushion is considered to be frozen after each player has twice shot soft shots against the ball and no other ball has contacted a cushion.

NH_Steve
04-12-2004, 05:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> On every shot in which no ball is pocketed, some ball must be driven to a rail after the cue ball contacts an object ball. A ball touching the cushion at the start of a shot is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rails and returns.

That's it. Well, except that a ball close to the cushion is considered to be frozen after each player has twice shot soft shots against the ball and no other ball has contacted a cushion. <hr /></blockquote>In One Pocket it doesn't seem necessary to limit safeties to the same rail like in straight pool, because of the One Pocket opposite pocket/opposite purposes thing. Those little nudging safeties where one player is seriously trapped, and the other is nursing the safety along, awaiting their chance to capitalize, are actually a valued tactical exchange in One Pocket. For other games, though, that's different.

Here is a good One Pocket example of why the 6-cushions/4 cushions question could be important:

START(
%A]0[0%BQ4E4%D[7S6%I[1P9%Pp6[0%QA8[3%RS9Z2%SE4Z3%U^7[0%Vo4Z9
%WG8[1%X[3Z8%eB4`5%f7%g4
)END

The shooting player needs all the balls. The one and the cue ball are frozen to the long rail. They roll the one softly down the rail intending to pocket it and gain bank position for the two ball, which could get them to the last two balls if all goes well. Unfortunately, they hit the one a little too softly, and although the one ball and the cue ball obviously leave the rail as they pass the side pocket, wouldn't most of us consider this still to be a foul for failing to drive a ball to the cushion? (Of course the opponent thinks it a foul-- when the penalty ball goes on the spot, he is out!!) WEI (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

striker_3
04-12-2004, 03:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote NH_Steve:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>
The shooting player needs all the balls. The one and the cue ball are frozen to the long rail. They roll the one softly down the rail intending to pocket it and gain bank position for the two ball, which could get them to the last two balls if all goes well. Unfortunately, they hit the one a little too softly, and although the one ball and the cue ball obviously leave the rail as they pass the side pocket, wouldn't most of us consider this still to be a foul for failing to drive a ball to the cushion? (Of course the opponent thinks it a foul-- when the penalty ball goes on the spot, he is out!!) WEI (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html) <hr /></blockquote>

Its a foul becauses it failed to contact another object ball before contacting the same rail again.

JClark
04-17-2004, 04:41 PM
There are there are 6 cushions but only 4 rails on the table. The long rail runs from corner pocket to corner pocket so it is considered one rail. Now you must meet the rest of the requirements of rule 3.38