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View Full Version : Is this a bogus Ref call or what?



CarolNYC
04-29-2002, 02:27 AM
A friend is playing match in Vegas-score is hill-hill-opponent goes to ref and complains about her shirt-ref stops game and makes her change-is that fair?
Carol

Vagabond
04-29-2002, 02:46 AM
Hello Mate,
Need more data to make a comment. cheers
Vagabond

04-29-2002, 03:24 AM
If the shirt breaks a tournament rule, it's a valid call. However, the opponent who complained really showed bad sportsmanship by mentioning it so late in the match. Why play for so long and then all of a sudden become offended by the shirt. The ref really did nothing wrong in my opinion -- they are supposed to enforce the rules.

Rich R.
04-29-2002, 03:55 AM
I think the opponent should have complained about the shirt long before hill-hill. Although the shirt may have violated the rules, at that point, the ref should not have made the call. If the shirt was good enough for all of the other games, it was good enough for the last game. This opinion is not based on the rules. JMHO. I think it was a shark, the opponent was just saving until the right moment. Rich R.

Chris Cass
04-29-2002, 05:48 AM
Hi Carol,

Sounds like a total shark move to me. I'm sure the opponent already used her time out for the match already. I don't think that's right but it happens.

Playing in a small 8ball tourney one nite. I ran the rack out. I'm down on the 8ball and get my opponents attention. I call the 8 and he looks and I take my time and it wasn't an easy shot but forced to bank. I make a terrific shot on the 8, turn around and offer my handshake for a good game. He wouldn't shake my hand and just smiled. I turned around after hearing a grown from the rail birds. I still had a ball on the table.

He won and I just looked at him. Everyone knew he saw the ball and I didn't. Class, he had none. Right, he was.

Regards,

C.C.

Doctor_D
04-29-2002, 06:10 AM
Good morning Carol:

Sounds like sour grapes to me. If the shirt or blouse was a problem, it should have been addressed before the commencement of the match.

Dr. D.

CarolNYC
04-29-2002, 06:29 AM
Hey Dr. D and everyone else,
the shirt was in good taste-very feminine, and if Im correct-the BCA doesnt even care if you wear jeans and sneakers!:)
Carol

CarolNYC
04-29-2002, 06:30 AM
Hey Chris,
Some people just dont have morals-your a winner in my eyes!
See you in Vegas!
Carol

MikeM
04-29-2002, 07:19 AM
Definitely a bogus call and a shaqrk move. The ref should have lauhged it off at hill-hill. If the shirt wasn't objectionable up to that point, doesn't become objectionable in the last game. JMO.

MM

Jay M
04-29-2002, 07:35 AM
There's even a legal term for this one:

from miriamwebster.com

Estoppel
Main Entry: es·top·pel
Pronunciation: e-'stä-pel
Function: noun
Etymology: probably from Middle French estoupail bung, from estouper
Date: 1531
: a legal bar to alleging or denying a fact because of one's own previous actions or words to the contrary

What it means is that if you have a clause in a contract and the other party waives their right to that clause, they can never go back and reinstate that right.

In other words, once the opponent waived the right to complain about the shirt (prior to the match), the opponent can no longer go back and complain about it.

Aside from that, it shows a total lack of class and confidence...

Jay M <~~~ barroom lawyer

Ken
04-29-2002, 07:39 AM
No tank tops allowed, Carol. That's TOO feminine.
Ken in CT

04-29-2002, 07:52 AM
Fri I played some pocket pool for the first time in about 20 years. It was at Chris's Billiards located on the north side of Chicago. They had a sign up. It was for an IL. 3 cushion Billiard Championship tournament. Entry is $200 and I think there was a $25 table fee. It stated all men or all contestants must wear black or dark dress pants. And they must wear a white dress or sports shirt. I'm not sure if women are allowed in that tournament. If they are I didn't see a separate dress code for women. So if it isn't a men's only tournament I guess the dress code would be the same for the women.

What is hill/hill. That's a new term to me. I assume it means something like the games won are tied going into the last game. Thanks.

MikeM
04-29-2002, 07:55 AM
Jay,

Exactly! Now if I can only estoppel my opponents from making any more 8 balls!

MM

04-29-2002, 07:58 AM
Actually, in this case you have no cause for complaint. It's your responsibility to know that you still have a ball on the table, your opponent has nothing to do with it. It's a similar situation to shooting the balls out of order in nine ball - it happens and when it does the only person at fault is the one shooting them.

Think of it this way, if there had been a referee at the table, there's no way the ref would have stepped in to stop you, so why should you expect your opponent to?

With respect to the person complaining about the shirt, that's totally out of line. The ref should have warned your friend about her shirt and then awarded her a ball in hand to penalize her opponent for unsportsmanlike conduct. Sadly, it doesn't surprise me at all because it's just an example of the kind of thing that happens at events run by the BCA. For an orginization that supposedly is responsible for pool in America, they sure seem to know nothing about it.

Barbara
04-29-2002, 08:02 AM
It is a bad call and the Ref should've been reported to the Senior Floor Ref.

Once a match has been started, both opponents have, in essence, agreed to the playing conditions.

Barbara

Barbara
04-29-2002, 08:07 AM
Actually Carol, they care very much about you wearing blue jeans, which is against the dress code. You can't even practice on a table wearing blue jeans.

Sneakers are okay. Right now, I'm in search of shoes since they ban open-toed shoes.

When the matches are about to commence, the referee assigned to that area is responsible for eyeing those in violation of the dress rules and making them correct it.

Much like our own Gina Kim-Lipsky in the NEWT tour.

Barbara

SpiderMan
04-29-2002, 08:30 AM
My team wore jeans at all matches last year at the BCA nationals. It is short pants that are not allowed at BCA nationals. If you're talking about APA nationals (this week), jeans are not allowed in the finals matches because of potential filming.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Barbara:</font><hr> Actually Carol, they care very much about you wearing blue jeans, which is against the dress code. You can't even practice on a table wearing blue jeans.

Sneakers are okay. Right now, I'm in search of shoes since they ban open-toed shoes.

When the matches are about to commence, the referee assigned to that area is responsible for eyeing those in violation of the dress rules and making them correct it.

Much like our own Gina Kim-Lipsky in the NEWT tour.

Barbara <hr></blockquote>

Eric.
04-29-2002, 08:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: CarolNYC:</font><hr> A friend is playing match in Vegas-score is hill-hill-opponent goes to ref and complains about her shirt-ref stops game and makes her change-is that fair?
Carol <hr></blockquote>

Hey Carol,

Like everybody said, it's a flat out shark attempt! But you know what? I love it! The opponent is scared. The best part is that the shark attempt didn't interfere with my shot, so no biggie. I'll just change and come back with my college shirt from Phawk U!

Eric &gt;Don't sweat the petty things,pet the ....

WaltVA
04-29-2002, 09:38 AM
Eddie - You're correct about "hill/hill". A player needing only one game to win his match is "on the hill" - so an 8-8 tie in a race to 9 is "hill/hill".

Walt in VA

SPetty
04-29-2002, 10:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Barbara:</font><hr> Actually Carol, they care very much about you wearing blue jeans, which is against the dress code. You can't even practice on a table wearing blue jeans.
<hr></blockquote>

Hi Barbara,

For the amateur 8-ball BCA tournament coming up in Vegas in May, from the BCA website:

"Men must wear long pants, either dress pants or neat, clean, untorn jeans. Women may wear dress pants, Capri-style pants, or neat, clean, untorn jeans. Women may also wear culottes, skirts or dresses of conservative length."

Ralph S.
04-29-2002, 01:26 PM
Hey Chris, I feel for ya as I have done that myself. Not a good feeling at all. As for the officiating call, shark move all the way as others have said already. The complainant sounds like a poor loser to me and was trying to salvage a bad situation. JMO.
Ralph S.

Barbara
04-29-2002, 02:46 PM
You know, John Lewis changes the women's dress code too often for my taste. Since when have blue jeans been okay? I don't recall seeing anyone wearing blue jeans last year.

And how about the total fiasco 2 years ago when John said that shirts had to have collars??! I had some nice outfits to wear with dressy tops, but since they weren't collared, I was stuck with wearing polo-type shirts and my black jeans.

Barbara~~~going to the site to see if sandals are okay now... rats, they still aren't...

04-29-2002, 02:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Barbara:</font><hr>
Barbara~~~going to the site to see if candals are okay now... <hr></blockquote>

barbara, yes, candals are still allowed. you may light one to any diety you choose as you pray. it's in the constitution and everything.

dan

SPetty
04-29-2002, 03:01 PM
Okay, just in case anyone else is caring about this, here's a larger excerpt from the BCA web site:
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: BCA Web Site:</font><hr>Singles Competition

Men and women may wear shirts of polo/golf style or button-down style with a conventional fold-over collar. Men may also wear dress shirts with Henley collars or tuxedo shirts with appropriate formal necktie. Women may wear dress blouses.

Men must wear long pants, either dress pants or neat, clean, untorn jeans. Women may wear dress pants, Capri-style pants, or neat, clean, untorn jeans. Women may also wear culottes, skirts or dresses of conservative length.

Men and women must wear clean, neat, close-toed shoes at all times. Should a player require a footwear exception for medical reasons, the player must provide a letter on official letterhead from the player’s health care provider before the tournament.

<hr></blockquote>

So, no open-toed sandals, but the "dress blouse" might be okay without a collar this time...

PoolFan
04-29-2002, 03:28 PM
This call is lame in my eyes.

It reminds me of the Stanley Cup playoffs back around '92 - Montreal versus LA. In the first game, Montreal was down by one goal with a couple of minutes left in the game. The Montreal coach called the ref stating that a player on the LA team was playing with an illegal stick (too much bend in the blade).

For those of you who are not fimilar with hockey, if a coach makes this call and he's right the ref will call a penalty on the opposing team. If the coach was wrong, the ref will call a penalty on the coach's team for a delay of game.

Turns out, Montreal was right. They had a power play and pulled their goalie to put an extra forward on the ice. The stunt worked and Montreal won the game and the series.

I thought that call sucked, just like the call in this situation sucked!!

PoolFan ~~ wanted to see the Great One win another Stanley Cup with LA ~~ lost a bundle due to that call

cuechick
04-29-2002, 09:52 PM
They did allow blue jeans for at least the past two times I went to Vegas....I know beacuse Gina always wears them!

Chris Cass
04-29-2002, 10:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: dinovirus:</font><hr> Actually, in this case you have no cause for complaint. It's your responsibility to know that you still have a ball on the table, your opponent has nothing to do with it. It's a similar situation to shooting the balls out of order in nine ball - it happens and when it does the only person at fault is the one shooting them.
quote]

Hi Dino,

I'm not saying I did. I suppose I should have mentioned my opponent, is a good friend of mine. He know's he messed up. You see, I wouldn't let anyone shoot the wrong ball if I'd known. He knows this too. I just lost some respect for him, that's all. That kind of thing happens to me every 4 yrs., like clock work. I had been shooting since 8am and got up at 6am. The tourney started at 7pm., our match was at 7:45pm.

I know you don't know me but, I'm the player that tells you, if you have ball in hand against me. I don't look for you to tell me, not to shoot the 9 in. I don't need it, I play good enough to know and smart enough to win. I feel this sport is not about winning as much as how you play the game. JMHO I believe the only way to win, is to show your a winner and act like a professional doing it.

2-1 he misses every key shot he has against me next time. He rattled himself. In the back of his deviate mind, he owe's me. Friendship, extends beyond rules. Actually, I smiled and said, if you need a couple bucks, let me know.

Good post and welcome aboard.....

Regards,

C.C.

04-30-2002, 12:18 AM
Can't say I disagree with your position. Pool would be in a much better place if more players had as much integrity as you do. Sadly we are often rewarded for being bad sports in this game, usually because there is no referee.

I'll tell you a funny story though. Gary McCord the golfer once was playing a hole and pushed his drive so poorly he ended up on the wrong fairway. It was a par five so he decided to play a shot down the fairway he was on and play over the trees to the green with his sand wedge. When he got down to his ball his caddy went to the green to pace of the yardage, came back and reported it and McCord hit up to about three feet and then made the putt for a birdie.

Only problem was...his caddie had gone to the wrong hole. McCord hit a green that was from an adjoining course and not being used for the tournament. He ended up disqualified. Asked what he did about that he replied, "what could I do? I fired my caddie and then went to the range to work on my driver."

Chris Cass
04-30-2002, 06:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: dinovirus:</font><hr> Can't say I disagree with your position. Pool would be in a much better place if more players had as much integrity as you do. Sadly we are often rewarded for being bad sports in this game, usually because there is no referee.

I'll tell you a funny story though. Gary McCord the golfer once was playing a hole and pushed his drive so poorly he ended up on the wrong fairway. It was a par five so he decided to play a shot down the fairway he was on and play over the trees to the green with his sand wedge. When he got down to his ball his caddy went to the green to pace of the yardage, came back and reported it and McCord hit up to about three feet and then made the putt for a birdie.

Only problem was...his caddie had gone to the wrong hole. McCord hit a green that was from an adjoining course and not being used for the tournament. He ended up disqualified. Asked what he did about that he replied, "what could I do? I fired my caddie and then went to the range to work on my driver." <hr></blockquote>

CarolNYC
04-30-2002, 10:13 AM
Thank you all for your replies-I agree, if an opponent had a problem wth the way someone was in dress code, then it should have been stated BEFORE the match-this happened last year in Vegas-Watch out this year_and the blouse, was a collared blouse,v neck,not low but short sleeves!
Thanks all and have a great day!
Carol~will be playing masters team for Amsterdam!